Is LionChief Scale or Traditional?

All the LionChief steam engines I've seen are closer to that Postwar size.  Haven't seen any that are scale 1/48th size though some of the diesels (like a Geep, etc.) may be.

Sad to hear of his loss, hope you can help him out.

The LC+ Camelback and A5 are scale sized.  The LC+ 2.0 RS3 is also scale sized.  I'm sure a bunch of other stuff is too, but I agree that most will be "traditional" size, whatever that is.

@laming posted:

Hi All:

Got a long time train friend in his late 70s that recently became a widower. It's been a few months now since is wife has passed, and he feels his life needs a change. He is going to experiment returning to 3-rail for the first time since he was a lad. He feels (and I agree) that doing so will give him some goals and tasks to accomplish as well as personal satisfaction and entertainment. He's interested in this product:

https://www.lionel.com/product...-mikado-4978-2332060

He already has a modest track plan/layout concept in mind that he saw in another toy train publication and/or via Google searching, and it looks very attainable to me.

I don't know enough about contemporary offerings to help him with any answers, so I thought I would turn to y'all to see if you can help school me.

What I'm wondering is if the linked engine will be closer in size to a 736 Berkshire or a scale USRA Light 2-8-2?

Anyway, I would very much appreciate some input. It's been a LONG time since he's been exposed to 3-rail and a LOT has changed since he was lad in the 1950s.

Andre

LionChief and Lionchief+ items are Postwar/Traditional size for sure.

Andre, the LC+ Mikado you posted is definitely "traditional" size.  It's smaller than a 736 Berkshire, maybe even close to 3/16" scale with O-gauge wheel spacing.  That being said, I think it's a good looking and well-built loco that should run great on sharp toy-train curves.  The LionChief Hudsons, Pacifics, and Berkshires are traditionally sized, i.e., smaller than 1/4" scale.  The steam switchers, Camelback, and most of the diesels are scale or near-scale sized.

Your friend should carefully consider HOW he is going to run his trains.  Unlike the original LionChief Plus, LC+ 2.0 locos don't come with an individual hand-held remote.  So given current supply constraints, you have to either buy the LionChief "Universal Remote," or run your loco with a phone app.  In my personal experience, a sample size of one, I found my original LionChief Plus was tamer / more mellow and easier to control (unless you're lucky enough to already have a Legacy system, in which case LC Plus 2.0 runs great.)  YMMV.

@Ted S posted:

Andre, the LC+ Mikado you posted is definitely "traditional" size.  It's smaller than a 736 Berkshire, maybe even close to 3/16" scale with O-gauge wheel spacing.  That being said, I think it's a good looking and well-built loco that should run great on sharp toy-train curves.  The LionChief Hudsons, Pacifics, and Berkshires are traditionally sized, i.e., smaller than 1/4" scale.  The steam switchers, Camelback, and most of the diesels are scale or near-scale sized.

Yes, all the steam engines (except the A-5 and Camelback , which are scale, as John said) are traditional size. As far as the diesels, as others have said, the RS-3s are scale. Also scale sized are the Geeps (GP9, for example), and also the FT diesels. The others are smaller than scale, such as the U-36B and the ET44ac, and the LionChief electrics are also traditional sized locos, which include the Rectifiers and GG1s.

I have the TMCC version of that engine and snapped a few pics of it beside a PW 2055 and 2025. As stated, it's traditional size. I thought a visual reference might help.

Its just one engine out of more to come.  Buy what feels right for now.

Want to say thanks to all of you that have offered input.

Sounds as if the LionChief line of products is exactly like postwar: Some smaller, some near scale.

My friend is a rivet counter by nature, so it's going to be interesting to see if he can accept a more "free flowing" approach to 3-rail, or if he ends up going with scale dimension equipment... or opts out all together. On the one hand he talks like he's looking forward to the relaxed approach that can be found in 3-rail, but on the other he bemoans the way Lionel does things, i.e., the way Lionel isn't overly meticulous with scale fidelity in some of their offerings.

Zeke:

Thanks for those pictures. They help me to "see" the size of the LionChief 2-8-2 (and it is a very nice looking engine), but I'm not too sure he understand the differences you get into when dealing with 3 rail and dealing with "traditional sized", or "near scale", or "scale sized".

Andre

@laming,

Well, I also have the pic below to offer. From left to right: MTH Premier, MTH Railking, Lionel 6464. Maybe that'll help him begin to understand the size differences.

I have two of the 2-8-2 engines, one with TMCC and ERR Cruise added and another with LC+. I'd also rate them above average in detail for Traditional O engines. Nice looking, very good replicas of the original, just on the smaller side. Both are rated for 27" curves, so that tell you these are smaller even among Traditional O.  The LC+ Berks rate for 31" curves, think.

Being pre TMCC and LC+, mine have 2 chuffs per revolution. The drive wheels are pretty small, so I'm not sure how good 4 chuffs will sound with LC+2. Might sound like a machine gun.

Raising4daughters brings up another good point.  My LionChief Plus 2.0 loco DOES have the prototypical 4 chuffs per revolution.  And yes, it DOES sound like a machine gun at anything above medium speed.  I'm not sure if you can somehow change it to only sound two chuffs per revolution, you might need the rare and expensive CAB-2 to do so.  But "out of the box," the original LionChief Plus sounded better in normal operation.

@raising4daughters posted:

I have two of the 2-8-2 engines, one with TMCC and ERR Cruise added and another with LC+. I'd also rate them above average in detail for Traditional O engines. Nice looking, very good replicas of the original, just on the smaller side. Both are rated for 27" curves, so that tell you these are smaller even among Traditional O.  The LC+ Berks rate for 31" curves, think.

Being pre TMCC and LC+, mine have 2 chuffs per revolution. The drive wheels are pretty small, so I'm not sure how good 4 chuffs will sound with LC+2. Might sound like a machine gun.

The Mikado isn't that small, really. Lionel says it has a length of 19", which is the same as the Postwar style Berkshire. Total length depends on the tender used, of course. Drivers on prototypical light Mikados were only 64" in diameter, not that tall. Built for pulling power and not speed. Lionel did some LionChief Postwar style Berks a few years ago, if you can find them. Not to be confused with the baby Berks Lionel has also done in the LionChief line, which are quite small.

In the "other" train magazine, the one from March 1993 with Neil Young on the cover, there was a very interesting article, often overlooked, called "Scale's the thing." In that article, the authors came up with a four tier grading: Small being 85% or less of scale, Medium being 85% to 93% of scale, Large being 93% to 100% of scale, and True O being full scale.

According to this article, there were postwar locomotives that were scale in their overall body proportions, but obviously not in either detail or the mounting of trucks to the body. Or the stamped sheet metal handrails.

The postwar GP9, NW2 and Train Master are all listed as scale in the article. The F3 is listed as large. The K-Line S-2 is listed as medium, as are the K-Line and Lionel Alco FA diesels. Steam engines are really all over the place, then as they are today. The 2-4-2 and 4-4-2 Columbia/Atlantic starter set steamers are small. The Lionel 773 Hudson is listed as scale. Of course, some of this really comes as no surprise to any of us who have been in the hobby for some time. Still it is an interesting article if you happen to have that issue of CTT.

Yet by current standards, most folks modeling a scale 3-rail layout today probably wouldn't consider these postwar developed engines for their layouts. These products, having been developed before the real push towards scale products beginning in the mid 1990's, have now fallen under the banner of traditional products. Most of the so-called traditional line products have less fine details, more rugged construction and compromises to allow them to navigate tighter 027 or 031 curves and turnouts. We often forget today that Lionel of the postwar years had their categories of "027" and "0 Gauge" in their catalogs in lieu of "traditional" and "scale."

Yet as @raising4daughters alluded to, some of the traditional line products (as the tooling gets refurbished or recreated) have better detailing today and certainly better decoration and paint.

Thanks for more input.

My friend has already received this 0-4-0 and is favorably impressed with its performance:

http://www.lionel.com/products...-locomotive-6-82973/

He had this to say about it:

"What a little sweetheart is the A5. Creeps down real nice for switching. Fits in the spur tracks."

I'm going to venture that I think he will be inclined toward "scale looking" stuff with the ability to do some operation with switching in mind. When he receives the traditional sized 2-8-2, that will tell the tale.

However, so far, so good!

I've suggested he join OGR's forums so he can be exposed to the contemporary 3-rail segment of the hobby as well as tap into the extensive knowledge base here.

Andre

@Ted S posted:

Raising4daughters brings up another good point.  My LionChief Plus 2.0 loco DOES have the prototypical 4 chuffs per revolution.  And yes, it DOES sound like a machine gun at anything above medium speed.  I'm not sure if you can somehow change it to only sound two chuffs per revolution, you might need the rare and expensive CAB-2 to do so.  But "out of the box," the original LionChief Plus sounded better in normal operation.

Forum search Lionchief Plus Dockside switcher. Easy fix clipping off 2 of the 4 sprockets that bring it down to 2 chuffs per revolution.

I appreciate the suggestion Jeffrey, but that's fairly permanent modification to your Docksider.  In the case of my LC+ 2.0 Pacific, I'm pretty sure the chuff is driven from a tach sensor on the motor flywheel, so it's in the software.  If there is a way to change it, I'm guessing it would be with the CAB-2 remote, which unfortunately have become scarce.

I would like to know whether Lionchief steam locomotives have metal or plastic shells.

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

I would like to know whether Lionchief steam locomotives have metal or plastic shells.

MELGAR

I have a Lion Chief AT&SF 2-8-2.  It has a diecast shell.  My club has several Thomas Lion Chief engines and a Polar Express engine.  Thomas has plastic shells and the Polar Express is diecast.   I suppose the answer depends on the model.  NH Joe

@New Haven Joe posted:

I have a Lion Chief AT&SF 2-8-2.  It has a diecast shell.  My club has several Thomas Lion Chief engines and a Polar Express engine.  Thomas has plastic shells and the Polar Express is diecast.   I suppose the answer depends on the model.  NH Joe

The Thomas engine is an anomaly. There may be another plastic steam engine or two (if so they'd be in the lower basic LionChief line), but virtually all LionChief steam engines, including all the LionChief Plus 2 line, are diecast.

@brianel_k-lineguy  stated  We often forget today that Lionel of the postwar years had their categories of "027" and "0 Gauge" in their catalogs in lieu of "traditional" and "scale."

Yes, that's how I remember 3-rail.

My Grandpa had O27.....with lower profile track, 27" curves and 1121 switches. Motive power consisted of Alco FAs, a 2-6-2, The General 4-4-0, 0-4-0 steam switcher, and a Seaboard 5250 NW2.  He later replaced the 2-6-2 with a 2056 4-6-4 because the 2-6-2 was geared for speed but not pulling power.

My Uncle had "O Gauge" with the higher profile track, 31" curves, and O22 switches. His motive power includes the near scale Santa Fe F3s with 15" passenger cars that were much bigger than my Grandpa's 10-11" O27 passenger cars. He also had the Virginian Trainmaster which seemed huge. But, he also had the same Alco FAs and 2-6-2 as my Grandpa as well as a B&O Budd set, I think.

I suspect a few of the total fantasy steamers like the Thomas might be plastic, but very few.  As stated, I've handled a ton of LC/LC+/LC+2.0 steam, and it's pretty much all been diecast.

@MELGAR I have a LC+ NYC Hudson and UP 0-8-0 engine that comes in starter sets and both are diecast. I agree with @breezinup, I imagine the few that are plastic shells are few and far between.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The LC+ Camelback and A5 are scale sized.  The LC+ 2.0 RS3 is also scale sized.  I'm sure a bunch of other stuff is too, but I agree that most will be "traditional" size, whatever that is.

I have numerous LC+ and LC+2.0 locomotives and Gunrunnerjohn is 100% accurate, as usual.

I highly recommend LC+ and LC+2.0 locomotives. They are a great way to get started with 3 rail O Gauge speed control without any extra wiring and without spending a lot of money, though this particular model at almost $700 is one of the most expensive LC+2.0 models I've seen. Arnold

@MELGAR posted:

I would like to know whether Lionchief steam locomotives have metal or plastic shells.

MELGAR

In my experience, most LC, LC+ and LC+2.0 steamers have diecast metal shells, and most LC, LC+, L+2.0 diesels have plastic shells.

Also, there is a significant difference between LC and LC+/LC+2.0, with the former having  less, and the latter having more, detail.

One of the best for detail is this LC+ Erie Camelback steamer, which, IMO, has Legacy level detail at a reasonable price in the $400 to $450 range, a metal shell, excellent heft and pulling power, and a dedicated remote unit, which is nice. It does not have Bluetooth, if that matters to you.

This is one of a handful of my favorite locomotives, which now includes numerous MTH PS3, and a few Legacy, locomotives. Also, as Gunrunner John aalready mentioned, this LC+ Erie Camelback steamer is scale, while still navigating 031 curves well. Arnold