Lionel 18056 Hudson Overhaul - FINISHED

Good news, I've located a Hudson from a forum member here and he's agreed to hold it for me until my current auctions on eBay end next week. I am now officially allowed to seek advice about the project 

Be careful what you wish for!

Hey, I asked advice about lionel hudsons for a project I was wishing to do and no-one heckled me about it...maybe it's you guys and your pensy type heralds on your posts....hahaha...joking!!!

So nick, did you get a hudson with the needed driver type?...I've always liked boxpox drivers.{hope I spelled that right} It's nice to see some folks trying to make what isn't available...and it's sad to see some folks who could do the same but never try.

BTW- if you too wish to run a live steamer, there's an O mamod on the bay as we speak...you didn't ask that, but I thought I'd offer it out...in case someone needed it.

some people just like to be a bad xxx and pester people for their entertainment.  Just ignore them and keep asking.

I'll bet Frank Timko can help. He upgrades older locomotives. He advertises in OGR (Run 264, p. 29). Email him at FTimko@SBCGlobal.net

At the very least, I'm sure he has a motor to upgrade that engine.  That one has the horizontal motor, right?  The mechanics should be a bolt-in with the new motor.

Burlington Route,

        Speaking of live steam, here is a train we saw and rode at Golden Gate Live Steamers during the 2011 TCA Convention in Sacramento

Well, they said they don't do the TMCC...but they can do the motor..you'll have to do the TMCC re-install, as the one you'll have will be an AC motor unit and you plan on a DC motor...ERR has an AC controller and a DC controller...think the cruise is for just DC- but don't quote me on that one.

http://www.electricrr.com/index.htm  

Yeah, if you want cruise you'll have to go DC motored...shame they don't have a cruise for the TMCC AC variants...bet they will in time.

"Boxpok" I believe is how it's spelled, and those are actually a different type than what I need which is "Scullin Disc". The 18056 Hudson comes from the factory with Scullen Disc drivers, so we're good to go.

"Boxpok Drivers":

"Scullin Disc Drivers":

I mentioned on page 1 that I gave Frank a call and he told me it's a small $45 DC can motor and a very simple one screw swap for this particular model. He only said he needed to know the type of coupling the motor uses before I could order one to install myself, so I will get back with him when I receive the engine and open it up.

This is indeed a horizontal motor as was shown in the photos Bob Karas posted on page 1. For some reason though he has removed them. A shame, as they were excellent reference.

Actually, I really doubt there'll be an AC cruise variant.  Jon Z. CTO from Lionel did some work on such a design and determined that a retrofit AC cruise would not provide satisfactory low speed performance due to the characteristics of AC motors.

I converted this engine over to a can motor with ERR. I've used Timko motors many times on conversions however for this engine the smaller Timko motor could not do the job. It got extremely hot due to the mass of the engine and tender. I ended up using a Williams Hudson motor but had to cut some of the inside cab away for it to fit. You can see the flywheel but painted black helps conceal it. The engine truly runs great now. I put the ERR in the boiler along with a fan smoke unit and moved the original ACRU into the tender to keep the railsounds. I used a reed switch on the tender truck wheel for two chuffs.

romiller

I'm surprised to hear that romiller, I've heard nothing but rave reviews on those Timko motors in similar engines such as Lionel's Yellow Belly Hudson and Commodore Vanderbilt. Is the 18056 Hudson heavier than those 

Nick; Frank does great work but he uses a smaller Mabuchi motor normally found in twin vertical motor diesels; they fit nicely but do not have the torque to drive the heavy loco/tender and rolling stock;what works great is Pittman or Canon; they can be found; or a larger can motor as per the Williams motor described earlier.  I went back to the original AC motor with the ERR/AC Cmdr in 100 step mode; its not cruise but pulls fine.  I bet Timko could adapt a Pittman or Canon or large DC to your loco.  Food for thought; good luck; Falcon70

Thanks for the advice but like I said, if this Hudson is too heavy for the Timko motor, why does everyone rave about them in similar models? Is this Hudson really that much heavier?

Nick, my personal experience is the diesel Mabuchi will struggle with any scale diecast loco; Lionel has used Pittmans, Fulbauer, and Canon motors in their heavy diecast scale steamers because multiple poles in these higher end motors have the torque to pull; I had a Reading T-1 and 1990? issue NYC Mohawk converted with the Mabuchi; ran smooth but no guts/torque/pulling power.  Lionel offers Pittman motors on replacement parts; some have flywheels with the coupling for a "dog bone" drive and the L shaped bracket for mounting.  There are Pittman motors on Ebay.  Bottom line, your Hudson is not specific to the lack of torque; small Mabuchis struggle; the Pullmor's were designed for the heavy casting. Sorry for the lengthy reply; good luck; Falcon70

Nick, I've installed Timko motors in the 784 Hudson and the Chessie TI with no problem. They do run great however the tender on the 18056 is so heavy I think it's simply too much on the smaller Timko motor. Give Frank a call. Maybe he's done an 18056 conversion with no problems. Maybe my installation was a fluke.

Regards

romiller

It may also have something to do with cab space - The C&O Yellowbelly had very spacious insides where the motor was mounted and had no cab interior detail. Though the Commodore Vanderbilt had cab interior detail, it still had more space in the boiler than the traditional 700E cast Hudsons. The 18056 had both the tighter 700E boiler and cab interior detail.

Alright guys, know it's been a while but am on a brief summer break from school and am picking back up with this project. One point I forgot to address from the previous posts before I begin though.

It was mentioned a few times that the tender in particular is too heavy for the Timko motor to handle. After receiving the locomotive, I can see now why this might be. That thing may as well have been a 10 pound dumbbell. But remember, I am tossing that inaccurate tender (it has since found a new home with a thrilled custom painter) and mating it with the separate sale PT tender, which is much lighter by comparison. This locomotive should now only weigh as much as similar models that people have converted like the yellowbelly Hudson and Commodore Vanderbilt. Again, those folks raved about their conversions so the motor must be doing something right.

https://ogrforum.com/t...he-engine-you-desire

Anyway, I will be calling Mr. Timko again tomorrow to order the materials for the upgrade. I'll also ask him about what he offers for smoke and chuff upgrades. Will report back.

Alright, just got done speaking with Frank. For the motor, he just needs me to send in the old one so he can mate the drive with the conversion motor. For a smoke unit, he requested I send the boiler shell in so he can make a bracket for an MTH unit. Finally, for chuffs, he only requested I send the tender truck to him for more magnets on the wheel.

Hope all goes well, this locomotive will really have "the works".

I'm interested to see what he's doing to trigger the chuffs with the MTH smoke unit and the Cruise Commander..   ERR offers their chuff controller, but I believe you'll have to add some logic of some kind to separate the motor and chuff input to the RailSounds board if you don't use that or something similar.

I did speak with ERR about a synchronised "puff and chuff". Unfortunately this is not possible with the Cruise Commander M, only the full Cruise Commander which is not for my locomotive because it already has TMCC. Frank did sound a little cryptic when I asked about the MTH unit being compatible with TMCC. He just said it would be fine. I was also a little confused when he said all he needed was the tender truck for the chuff upgrade. I thought there were other components too, and will I need to remove the current 1 chuff cam and cherry switch?

It can still be done but as John implied you will need an additional circuit ether triggered by the same reed switch or a second reed switch.

I am more curious about what the total cost for this project will be. Seems to me you are in Vision Hudson territory already.

Pete

You don't have to remove the current chuff switch and cam, just ignore it.  Personally, I'd probably take the chuff switch out, but that's optional.  However, in order to get synchronized chuffs from the reed switch on the tender, you need to not only supply the chuff input to the RailSounds board, but also switch the power to the smoke unit fan.  As others have discovered, these are incompatible and if you try to parallel them, it will likely damage the RailSounds board.

I'm currently facing the identical situation on an upgrade.  Right now my solution is probably going to be a miniature DPDT relay that will separate the chuff to the RailSounds board and the power control of the smoke unit.  In the queue is building a more complex circuit that will also manage the smoke unit when you stop and reduce the fan speed to have it smoke at a low volume when stopped, and return to normal operation when you're moving.  I've done all the elements of that solution in separate circuits, now I need to do them in a single one.

Question.  The pictures there shows an aging TMCC board, not the modular boards that are used with the Cruise Commander M.  Isn't that an LCRU2 in that locomotive?  Where is the Cruise Commander M, you already have the motor drive.  What does the RailSounds package look like in the tender?

John, The Century Club PT tender has RS5 along with 4 (count 'em) speakers. Sound will not be a problem here. Seems like a Cruise Commander, not Cruise M is what will be needed to replace the LCRU unless Nick is piecing together the electronics from another engine. Next hurdle will be interfacing to the wireless tether.

Pete

I think ERR has some options for wireless tethers, but I've never personally used them.  Obviously, the CCM is not called for here, hence my question.   The wireless tether should be interesting, as this locomotive obviously never had one.

Crap. I already ordered the Cruise M based on discussions here and with ERR. Called them and it hasn't shipped yet, waiting for a call back from Ken to straighten it out.

What's going to be wrong with the wireless tether? And yes this locomotive has a wireless tether that communicates fine with the new tender.

Lionel uses an extra interface between the R2LC and the wireless tether. I think ERR has a work around but you will want to contact them on how its done. If this engine came with modular electronics and you could use a Cruise M you would not have to worry about the interface but it appears what you have is not modular.

Pete

How did a 1997 locomotive have a wireless tether?  Were they really offered that far back?

Yep, for the Cruise Commander (and NOT the Cruise Commander M), you will need something.  I don't see anything in the Cruise Commander documentation or on the ERR site about the CC and wireless tethers, but they do have several versions of the Cruise Commander M for various wireless tether locomotives.

An interesting question...

Have no idea John, but lo and behold the 1997 Hudson came from the factory with a wireless tether. Will let you know what ERR has to say about it when I get the call back.

Since your engine uses a AC motor, you have a AC motor driver. If you install a Timko  motor that will be DC and you will need a DC Driver. Two choices ERR Cruise Commander and add tether or use Lionel Tmcc components and a Cruise M for wireless tether and build your Tmcc.

  And then we need sounds. 

There you go Nick. Look at what is in your J3a. Look at the motherboard with R2LC and Wireless driver then use the Cruise M. Resorting to hard wire will be even more painfull as the tender will have get rewired.

Bil, the replacement tender already has RS5.

Pete

Oi vey. Not as simple as we once thought.

I definitely want to retain the wireless tether so it communicates with the new PT tender. Best case scenario for me would be if the full Cruise Commander has a wireless tether work-around as Norton said. Because then I could also have the synchronised puff and chuff component. Again, waiting on that call from ERR. Ken is probably going to pull his hair out hearing from me today 

It's all part of customer service.   I'd be tempted to buy the motherboard, R2LC, and the Cruise Commander M.  We know there's a path to the wireless tether with that package.

Check the Lionel replacement parts site and do a search on "Niagara". Lionel only made one that I know of (CC Club) and it has the components listed and in stock. It appears the wireless driver is in fact on the motherboard as John points out. Other parts you will need include the heat sink, wire harnesses, R2LC assuming you get a Cruise M. Parts for the J3a are not listed but the Niagara parts are and that engine has the same tether type. I suspect Boxcar Bill can get you everything you need.

Pete

Okay, got the call back from Ken. Tentatively it's good news - he knows it's been done before and possible to adapt wireless tethers to the Cruise Commander package, it involves changing one wire over to another serial input or something to that effect. However, he needed some more time to "look into it" before we made the official order changes. The puff and chuff components are also a green light if he can confirm the method to adapt the Cruise Commander.

The problem with puff n chuff is you will be triggering the chuff from the tender. Ken might be assuming you have cherry switches in the engine. The chuff signal has to get to the smoke unit to have synchronized puffs. You can't do that through the wireless tether. You could do it with hard wire.

Look at it this way. Its a good learning experience.

Pete

Since the chuff switch is in the tender, there is a real problem with synchronized smoke chuffs for the locomotive, as there is no way to get the information back to the locomotive.  The chuff switch really needs to go into the locomotive to make this all work and still retain the wireless tether.

  Pete

 I was thinking about the original tender. The RS5 uses a three wire I.R. You will have to add a three wire tether to the engine.  The 3 wire tether will need a 5dc power supply, connection to ground and serial data. Use the cruise commander and chuff & puff. Mount a chuff switch and magnet. You might also need to add 5v power supply.

Bill