Issue Running PS1 Engines with DCS

First, what is your power source into the TIU? In other words, What transformer is providing your power source on the input channels to the TIU?

I'm asking, because while the TIU attempts to modulate and vary the voltage of the power going out, but depending on the source and the limitations of the TIU that may not result in a clean sine wave power.

Next, depending on what specific PS1 engines, the firmware in those engines may be extremely picky about the power and how clean it is on the track and this could interfere with detecting bell or horn/whistle DC offsets compared to the modulated power and given voltage. Again not all PS1 engines are equally compatible and some might be downright incompatible.

I cannot stress this enough, early MTH PS1 engines are known in some cases to be extremely picky and flat out, that is why there are newer PS1 sound chips for some of them to make them less problematic. I'm dealing with one right now, a Florida East Coast F3 that had an early PS1 chip and the user managed to lock it out. I was getting the 3 clanks of death. Not to mention it was an original white battery, but even the make PS chip would not correct. So I just ordered the updated chip from MTH parts and now the exact same engine is much better and likely greater compatibility than the original firmware. Chips are listed with this search https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/199?type=lists

As an example

I've been using an mth z1000 for power.

The two engines I'm talking about are 20-3029-1 my gs4 and 20-3032-1 my berkshire. I believe they're both late 90s models. Would this be considered the old boards? If so I'll try that next.

Just to be sure, you mean the 100Watt power brick and not the Zcontroller in between the brick and the TIU? Again, just making sure.

Also, then how are you powering the logic of the TIU? You also put power into fixed1 or you used the TIU aux power input round jack on the end of the TIU? Typical example below for fixed channels but same idea for variable.

This is one example of the list of known engines that specifically had called out update chips, but again, it's possible your engine is still picky even if not on the list. https://ogrforum.com/...99#48171004107463399

Again, using this list, there are chips that appear to be a match https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/200?type=lists

I do not want to lie to you and tell you this is the fix and you need to spend money and replace chips. I'm simply saying that again, the earlier engines were known to be problematic and there was a list. Engines not on the list may or may not be improved but my impression is this is one option.

Last, again, the TIU and variable channel is a feature, but that does not guarantee compatibility with any given PS1 engine and all functions work perfectly. I wish it wasn't that way but again not sure exactly what the magic fix is. I have seen where bell or whistle offset is sensed incorrectly in a PS1 engine in that long after the DC offset is removed, the engine still thinks it sees the signal and is blowing the horn or bell. It's just one of those limitations or things.

Am I missing something here?  PS1 engines are not DCS engines, they are conventional only.

Also, sorry, between my two posts, i just grabbed the list links I had saved. So the one ending in 199 is diesel and electric PS1 chips and the one ending in 200 is Steam engine PS1 chips. Just to make life easier for others following.

Steam https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/200?type=lists

Diesel https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/199?type=lists

@thegabe2003 posted:

Hello everyone,

I'm very new to the dcs system and am looking for a little help or tips for an issue I'm having running my mth ps1 locos. I've hooked up both of my variable lines to the tracks I'm trying to run the engines on and have added the tracks to my system. For the most part everything seems fine I've had a few symptoms that may be clues to the big issue, but I'm unsure. When I cycle the engines into either forward or reverse the whistle sounds without me pressing the button and will not stop unless I switch it back into neutral. Does anyone know why this is happening?

P.s. Both engines operate normally when run conventionally. Before and after trying to set up with dcs. Also it does not do this when running a ps2 engine.

Unsure if you meant when you run a PS2 engine under DCS, VS running under conventional- and I think that is possible, you might have to turn off the DCS signal on the variable output channel? That way, the PS2 starts in conventional because there is no DCS signal. Oops, edited to remove external link.

If you have a Lionel, Williams, or K-line (maybe others) that are also being run in conventional, do they get the horn or bell stuck on?

I highly doubt this is a problem with the TIU, however, it's possible there is interaction with other aspects of the track or cars or something that maybe creates a slight DC offset, and so when triggered, even when the TIU removes the offset it is or was applying, the steady state offset is picked up by the PS1 engine. I'm reaching here, but just trying to explain some ways it could happen.

@RON ARNDT 091718 posted:

Am I missing something here?  PS1 engines are not DCS engines, they are conventional only.

He's specifically using the TIU variable channel output to remotely control a variable channel.

So yes, a TIU can control a conventional engine if so configured and your track power and wiring plan is using the variable channels of the TIU. Not unlike using a Lionel Powermaster, ZW-L channel, or a TPC (Track Power Controller).

Ok, so I have the 100 watt brick to the zcontroller to the tiu to the rails. I'm powering the fixed 1 with a cw80 to run my ps2 amtrak surfliner set. Which works perfectly. My understanding was putting power to the aux port doesn't put power to the rails. Am I wrong there?

Also, I have tried using the cw80 for the same engine and it have the same result so I wouldn't think it's the transformer.

I do have passenger cars on the track with both engines I will try it without them. Otherwise maybe I should look into the chips.

I saw something about turning off the dcs signal to the variable tracks and I think I found what they were talking about and it didn't change anything. I may be wrong about how I do that though. It's confusing to me right now. Only had it for a few days.

One big difference I forgot to mention is that when I power on all of my tracks, fixed one and variable one and two. One and two seem to behave differently. Or maybe it's the engines based on the chip theory. The GS4, variable one, will light up and begin making sounds even when the track is not in the remote. This does not happen woth the berkshire, variable 2. I think I might have some replacing to do with certain parts because along with that difference the berkshire makes this rapid clicking noise, not just 3 clicks, until it gets above 12v or so.

I appreciate the help so far let me know your thoughts on the stuff above, thank you.

Also, like I said. Both engines operate normally when running conventionally. Might have to just stick with that which is a shame but is ok. Would just love to figure it out.

You are double modulating.

Both the CW80 and Zcontroller are electronic transformers modifying the sine wave power out of the core transformer. When you then put that through a variable TIU channel you are double modulating the power.

Highly suggest you directly connect the 100watt brick to the TIU variable channel directly. There is NO NEED for the Zcontroller.

Second problem, you need to power the TIU logic. It is an electronic device. A such, the 2 ways it gets power is when fixed 1 input is powered, or when aux power input jack on the end of the tiu is powered. As you have it wired, you MUST power the CW80 into fixed 1 first, and then turn on the variable channel. If you ONLY power the variable channel, the logic of the TIU is not powered. Again, the fix is, find a 12-18V small transformer or DC power adapter and power the TIU aux in constantly, so the TIU is always booted up and ready- regardless of the state of the fixed or variable channel power.

My understanding was putting power to the aux port doesn't put power to the rails.

Correct, again the TIU is an electronic device that needs power and must boot up every time it is powered. Hence giving it a constant always on power is one way of reducing problems or variables rather than borrowing power from channel 1 fixed input.

MTH power cable adapter MTH 50-1017 TIU/BARREL JACK ADAPTER CABLE

Direct connection of a 100Watt brick to a TIU channel.

Awesome, I will try getting one of those adapters to see if that solves my issue.

I'll try these other things as well. I appreciate all the help. I'll respond with confirmation if this stuff works. Thank you all.

Gabe use that power adapter ( 50-1017 ) that Vernon has shown you . 

Then use an MTH Z1000 for power instead of some other brand of transformer.                       ( when doing custom painting I usually found less than desirable results whenever i tried using a different company's thinner or primer. )

Gabe,  the link below is to an old discussion thread on how to change the start-up voltage so PS1 engines don't jump when powered through DCS. There are other insights there. From what I gather a DCS remote can be used to increase voltage to the tracks thereby operating the PS1 engine by remote but still in "conventional" mode.

  Running PS1 using DCS

For what its worth, I was under the impression PS1 engines were not controllable through DCS but could be run conventionally as mentioned by @RON ARNDT 091718.  PS1 was little more than a sound system and remote uncoupling. I suppose its splitting hairs as to whether running with a variable output transformer or using the DCS remote to change voltage is the same or not.  Being able to use a remote to control an engine would seem more like using DCS to me.  Learn something new every day around here.  I use the DCS app to run TMCC engines which, like PS1, were not loaded with advanced features.  Jeff

Also, I should point out a fact about the variable channels of the TIU. Yes, either using the remote, or if you also had the WIU and used the DCS app, a voltage is displayed for the variable channel. Here is the problem - that is NOT measuring the voltage. It is a scale based on the assumption the source voltage was around 22V. In other words, you can turn it up to say 18V- but that does not in any way guarantee or measure the voltage to be 18V. It just means you are at some percentage of the source voltage in a range that maxed out at 22V.

A Z1000 brick is 18V nominal, so again, using a variable channel, most likely, the actual voltage would be some percentage lower than the displayed voltage of a variable track- just FYI.

Hello again yall,

I have great news. The issue I had was because of the modulation from the z1000. Once I connected everything using the adapter, all worked perfectly.

Thank you again for all the help, I would not have figured it out without you.