Scale Daylight Models - A Photo Sharing Thread and Discussion on Accuracy

Not one you see everyday, this is the MTH DAP BNSF Daylight offered around 2000-2001. BNSF had their employee special pulled by a repainted 4449. This is the second scale steam engine that I purchased having only been in the hobby a few years. I have since moved on to operating and collecting railroads of the Pacific Northwest. A few years ago I looked at selling this but realized it is worth more to keep than to sell for pennies on the dollar. It's a white elephant in my collection but I like the look of the Lima built 4-8-4.

So, a few years back I picked up a set of 18" SP passenger cars to pull behind it.

It's a fantasy train for sure but the SP DID have black 4-8-4's and so with a little imagination...

Andrew

The all black BNSF GS-4 with white accent stripes looks surprisingly sharp. As a side note towards the end of steam operations the SP operated their GS-4's with an all black paint scheme minus the distinctive engine skirts - maintenance personal had removed them by the early to mid 1950's. And as I recall seeing, without the Daylight color scheme and skirting, the SP GS-4 almost looked like any other big Northern locomotive expect for the dual headlights on the white smokebox door and 'trademark' skyline casing. 

3rd Rail Mt-4 and Gs-4.  Both of these run very well and look amazing.

I have the new MTH version on order, I wanted the GS4 version, it is just to dang sexy with those twin headlights. it will be a bit till it gets here hopefully it will get to the new house just in time for the new layout in the basement.

I did some paint touch ups on my 3rd Rail GS4. Had to get rid of the white walls to start with, and fix the shiny silver handrails/ladders.

Now the ladders blend in to the paint scheme as they should, instead of sticking out like a sore thumb. 

The automatic response is to cry "blasphemy!", but that indeed looks like a far more accurate configuration for a GS-4 in service. Well done! 

Well done FatBoy.... Nice video. Here I sit content and happy in second class with my Williams GS-4 and K-Line 18' Heavyweights.

Here's a MTH GS-4 (20-3029-1) and cars

Very nice job Laidoffsick!  That's exactly what an SP GS-4 should look like.

Thanks Jack, appreciate that. I didn't not like the "PARK" look with all that "bling" that it came with.

I just won on eBay Lionel 1975 Alco ABA Daylight set 6-8552. Fundimensions wanted to make a better quality Alco's and these have die cast trucks and a 3 position e unit. Its in its original 3 unit set box and appears to be new or near new. I have the earlier Lionel Daylight steamer also and Williams Daylght passenger cars.

That looks great Laidoffsick...wow much much better and as HW stated that is dead on.  Great work.

Chris

Since nobody has posted one on this thread yet... here's our Lionel 4-4-2 Daylight crusing on the shelf layout.  Purchased it from another forum member earlier this year - and we love this engine!  Great looks, sound and performance for a comparatively small scale steamer.

-Dustin

Thought I'd revive this thread with a huge find at York. Vince's Trains in the Orange Hall had a brand new set of Golden Gate Depot's 5-car articulated Daylight. It was marked at $495, which immediately caught my attention as I thought these were $1,000 sets on the secondary market. I asked Vince what the story was on it, and he said it was a mistake order that he decided to hold on to. The obligatory question - "What's your bottom line for cash today?" "Hmm..........meh, gimme $460 and I'm happy."

That was my best purchase of the trip. Never in a million years would have thought a beautiful Golden Gate Depot Daylight set would fall so comfortably in my price range. Now I have to find the other half.

Here's some photos, and a color comparison to my 2004 Lionel GS-2. As you can see, fairly drastic, but not deterring me. This is the finest set of cars I've owned.

Yes, it's a significant difference in color. I don't know why GGD would paint these cars such a dull, off-color (and non-prototypical) shade. When these cars were announced, I emailed Scott Mann to ask if the cars would be painted to match the Lionel scale GS engines. I never got an answer. Clearly the answer was "No."      

Nick...thanks for posting the pictures.  Well...while I am happy you got a great deal from Vince (which by the way, is a great guy!!), the color difference is such that I would personally try to find the 3rd Rail GS4 to go with the cars.  As a matter of fact, these appear to be very close if not a little less brilliant than the K-Line full scale cars.  Still your GGD cars no doubt are extraordinary models that anyone would be proud to own. 

I am including a few shots of my K-line consist for color comparison...even though through pictures, a side to side comparison would be much more accurate.

Alan

Why do you assume that the Golden Gate Depot SP Daylight colors are "wrong" and the Lionel colors are "correct"? Yes, there appears to be a difference, but I happen to know that Golden Gate Depot got the "SP color" information from the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society, which are also the same color chip specifications from the SP Sacramento Locomotive Works Laboratory. Also, for what it's worth, the real SP 4449 Daylight is painted from the same specifications, and Dupont made special the Red, and Orange to comply with those original color specifications.

I'll put my money on the Golden Gate Depot cars, and the Sunset/3rd Rail GS-4 models, being correct. At least they match the color chips that are included in Robert J. Church's extensive book on the SP Daylight steam locomotives.

It's a very interesting conundrum, reminiscent of the big Lionel Commodore Vanderbilt color controversy. The way I see it, it looks as if Lionel captured the look of Daylight colors spanking new from the paint shop and GGD / K-Line captured the look of Daylight colors after a few years of revenue service. Alan, looking at your photos, it looks like GGD and K-Line used the same more subdued colors on their cars.

In the end this simply comes with the territory of mixing manufacturers' products. I'm still thrilled with the cars because I don't own any other set that couples as closely or has windows truly flush with the car body, which are things that don't seem like a big deal on paper but are very impressive when they're actually in front of you. I will also likely still get the K-Line set down the road since I'm starting to get the itch for a black Daylight, which solves the color issue 

The nice thing about this is that it appears the K-line cars would go nicely with the GGD cars you have already.  AND...one could open the K-line cars up, add some window shades, a little carpet on the floor, and I'll abet a nice looking consist would be the result.

Hotwater.....do you know if K-line also used a similar color chip for their cars as did GGD???  Just wondering since they seem to be pretty close...

Thanks,

Alan

The other thing I'm really curious to find out is if K-Line did indeed release their Daylight cars in different runs with slightly different shades. I believe it was also Hot Water that had once pointed this out. Did you ever find out anymore about that Jack?

Also, here's a comparison photo using one of my favorite shots of a Daylight passenger car. Old camera I know, but still, fairly clear. Top is Lionel, Middle is prototype, Bottom is GGD:

I want to say the GGD / K-Line colors are a more realistic shade but I think I need to work on the lighting. What do you think?

Although the K-Line folks did NOT contact me directly, I'm pretty sure that in conversations over the years with Bob Gruba, he knew to contact the SP Historical society directly, plus using the color chips in Robert J. Church's Daylight Steam Locomotives book.

That said, K-Line did appear to have an "issue" with the two different deliveries of their 21" Daylight passenger cars. Knowing that, I never bothered looking for those cars. Of course, hind sight is always 20/20, I finally waited long enough, and quickly ordered the GGD complete Daylight passenger set, mainly due to their articulated chair cars and three section articulated diner.

Since I tend to model in the mid 1950s, my GGD Daylight train set looks truly spectacular when being pulled buy the Sunset/3r Rail black GS-4 #4445. To be fair, I did have to have my custom painter/detailer buddy change the tender from "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering to the large "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" lettering (I purchased quite a number of the SP Champ Decal sets prior to their demise), plus removal of the skirts and add styrene siding to the front steps.

Because of the real 4449's colors. Unless they got their color chips from somewhere else. But the engine and cars I've seen in use today are quite rich and bright in color. There's nothing dull about their colors.

dull  

That picture in front of the station always comes out in this discussion, but if you Google "4449" you will find 1000's of pictures of the 4449, and many of them look different depending on how long between paint jobs. Also a HUGE factor is the lighting and the photographer. Those pictures are over exposed for one thing. I can post pictures that make it look dull and faded too. How many pictures do you see of it with white wall tires?

I looked at every picture I could find online before doing the detail touch ups on my 3rd Rail version. Some photos of the real train look super bright and shiny as the one above, and others look like the GGD colors. 

I posted a pic above of my 4449 and a GGD car coupled together. They match...period! I can also tell you this.. looking at the same engine and cars in my hallway on the shelves looks entirely different sitting on my layout with full spectrum bulbs for lighting. I can also over expose or under expose my photos to change the color and hue to anything I want.

I can also say "in general"... I would trust colors from GGD and 3rd Rail before I would say Lionel is correct.

Either way... I don't a s**t, I have what I have, and I like it.  

Laidoffsick took the words out of my mouth. After scrutinizing so many different photos I've simply come to the conclusion that age, lighting, and camera technology wreak too much havoc on this debate to effectively get anywhere. I'm just going to stick with my original conclusion - Lionel seems to capture the look of a spanking new paint job and GGD / K-Line seem to capture the look of in-service cars. We've also got an extremely knowledgeable steam veteran that's worked very closely with the actual 4449 telling us GGD used exact paint codes from official sources, so that seems definitive enough for me.

This conundrum is actually a good thing for me too. It has given me the incentive to seek a black Daylight for the GGD cars and dig deeper into the K-Line mystery for my Lionel GS-2. Heck, maybe I'll even crack into a set of the matching Lionel cars and figure out how to fix those bloody bulging windows. Then I'll have a nice mellow in-service Daylight and a punches-you-in-the-face bright Daylight 

I really hate it when you just have to buy more engines!

I did not copy your posted photos, but there are always many, many variables involved with color photography, especially when posted on the internet. Color film, whether Kodak Kodachrome, Ecktachrome, or the various Vujichrome (sp) products ALL produce different color images, not to mention the sunlight conditions. You can argue all you want, which seems to be your nature anyway, but I can tell you the we have had the actual ORIGINAL SP color plates from the Sacramento Laboratory matched against the newly painted 4449 for the 1981 Sacramento Rail Fair ( I was present during the matching of the plates against 4449), and the Lab Man was amazed how perfectly the red & orange colors matched the original plates, i.e., Dupont did a phenomenal job. I have personally matched those same SP color chips against the GGD cars, and they also match.

Good enough for me!

I agree with Hot.  I believe the SP red was a bit more muddy than the Lionel color.  But it is all subjective at this point.  I did personally see the Daylight, but it was over sixty years ago.

However, I can definitively say that K-Line got the Daylight cars wrong, since they used an incorrect extrusion.  It affected the window height.  Only the SP and ATSF used the Daylight- style corrugations, and only GGD and Spear got the corrugations anywhere near correct, although some tell me that the Pecos River cars were accurate.

Agreed. Lots of variations possible in photography. However, when I personally saw 4449 a bit over a year ago, it was very rich and bright in color, and I thought the Lionel (and MTH and Williams) Daylight colors all matched it very well. Also, watching my Pentrex video of the 4449, it shows the engine and colors to be the same color. I assume Pentrex uses fairly sophisticated cameras with accurate color renditions. But colors fade with age, of course, in the daylight (poor pun), and whether the SP in its heyday let the Daylight trains get dull, I don't know. Ultimately, whatever satisfies the individual hobbyist is all that really matters.

Praise from the master. (Just kidding)   Anyway, it's a discussion, not an argument. I'm not an adversary, for heavens sake. We're discussing Daylight colors. Big deal.

breezinup, you have to admit, the man who has personally overseen the color comparisons on the actual 4449 and then performed the same comparison on the GGD cars telling you that everything was a match is some pretty definitive info, despite whatever you saw a year ago.

Perhaps I should take one of the GGD cars outside tomorrow and photograph it in peak sunlight, then we'll see if the color brightens up to what we commonly see in photos of 4449.

I ordered one from MTH, don't tell John Korling I ordered it, wont hear the end of it.

I keep looking at all of the pictures posted above and one thing I just noticed, it seems that the K-line car's ribbing, especially below the windows, looks more like the prototype picture.  I guess what I am saying is the ribbing looks like the large ribbs on the picture of the car with family standing in front....????  Perhaps there were different numbers of ribs on the prototype cars depending on manufacturers.....?  I don't know, these answers but I am learning a lot here!!  Jack...you are an encyclopedia when it comes to this stuff...thanks!!

Alan

I always enjoyed this type of little "detective work", and I too noticed the GGD cars have a lot more ribs than the family photo. However I don't know nearly enough about the prototypes to make a call, because as you pointed out there could be differences between car types. As usual, I'll probably learn from Jack on this one too.

I am not Jack, but I submit that the K-Line ribs are not correct for Daylight.

The Daylight - all of the cars ever built except Shasta - had their corrugations inset from the outer level of windows and letter boards.  Most other Pullman cars were like the K-Line, with corrugations protruding outward with window areas slightly inset.

Most Pullman carbodies had alternating large and small corrugations, and Daylight was no exception.

Let me see if I have a photo that will help.

Bob....OK...then from what you are saying above, and looking at the pictures above as well as those that I have found online, it appears that neither K-Line or GGD got the ribs completely correct.....  Is that right??  To be honest, I am not a nit-picker as folks can see when they look at my layout but this discussion is very interesting and S.P. is one of my favorites so I appreciate the learning curve I am going through right now.  Great to have guys that have hands on experience and know the facts!!

Alan

Nope.  Cannot find my good shot of a correct extrusion.  This one may not help, but it does show original SP enamel on the right- hand car, a kit by B-C models done in Sacramento about fifty years ago using SP paint.  The one on the left is a Speer extrusion with correct corrugations (the B-C is not correct because only one size corrugation was embossed in the sheet metal).  Paint on the Speer car is Scale Coat.  It too is fairly accurate, although slightly lighter than the fifty year old enamel.

Sorry about that Bob, meant to include you too in my information sources. As Alan said, it's really great we have guys like you on the forum here.

I suppose this makes us "rib counters", a neat variation on rivet-counters, lol! But seriously, great discussion and information. I'm personally lenient enough to not mind rib inaccuracies but it's neat to know who gets it right and who doesn't.

Thanks for the pics Bob....  Boy this paint thing can get to a guy!!  I am looking at the picture above and now it looks like the brighter paint on the right side car matches some of the Lionel cars!!  And from what I read, you're saying that it is painted with SP paint!!  Now my K-Line cars, color-wise, look more like the left hand car....  In addition, the ribs on my K-Line car, at least from a distance, look more like the picture above that Nick posted.  So....it still appears to me, that there must be variations from all manufacturers that have different degrees of accuracy.  No doubt, the GGD cars are the nicest overall, but the K-Lines "ain't too bad either"!  When comparing the ribbing, the K-Line cars give the "appearance" of the prototype picture above even though they don't have the large and small alternating ribs as seen in the prototype picture above. 

Again, I appreciate everyone's knowledge and helping teach those of us less knowledgeable about one of the most beautiful trains ever to meet the rails!

Alan