Scale Daylight Models - A Photo Sharing Thread and Discussion on Accuracy

Here's a clearer shot of the left (fireman's) side logo. The ball should be at the front of the logo on both the left and right sides, facing the front of the engine. It should be above the "t" of "Daylight" on the right side, and over the "D" of "Daylight" on the left side. This would require two different decals or paint setups, and Lionel used the same one for both sides. In the scheme of things, though, a very small detail (IMHO).

I'm certain that Cesar won't mind me posting these pics of No 4410 on his spectacular layout we took during York week.

I can tell you for sure that the Lionel Legacy GS-4 model had the Fireman's side "Ball & Wing" Daylight logo incorrectly applied. I had my custom painter redo both side skirt logos on my Legacy model, using the Champ decal set E12D, which includes BOTH correct "Ball & Wing" decal logos. I also had him correct some other minor paint discrepancies, and then lightly weather it.

I'm still undecided on having him remove the "lines lettering" on the tender and put the "billboard lettering" on. Then again, since the train number indicator boards are forward, I may just leave the darned thing alone, and continue to run it like it is now.

I'm now actually kind of curious to know what the driver wheel diameter is on both the Lionel GS-2 & GS-6 and GS-4 scale models.

I have a hunch that they're all probably the same, but the actual prototypes had different wheel diameters.

The prototype GS-2 & GS-6 had 73.5" drivers so that would work out to 1.53" in O scale.

The prototype GS-4 has 80" drivers so that would work out to 1.67" in O scale.

Like I said previously I very seriously doubt they made the driver sizes correspond to each model, but was idly curious all the same as the GS-2 & GS-6 were slightly lower in height than the GS-4 (don't recall the exact dimensions) due primarily to the driver sizes.

I thought I heard Lionel did make the wheels larger on the GS-4, but retained the skinnier GS-2 rods.

I also forgot to come back to the point Hot Water made about the earlier K-Line Daylight cars being a better shade. Does anyone have photos?

A couple of videos of Hot Water's GS-4s. 

I like the black guy better.

Regards,

GNNPNUT

Hey Hot Water,

When you weathered your Daylight GS-4 you forgot to repaint the top surface area of the front pilot and the coupler mounting area black while you were at it. 

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...smb44/Northbound.jpg

Very impressive specimens above, especially the 3rd Rail cars. How much are they going for on the secondary market? Somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000 I have to imagine?

Me, too. I think it looks much better with those 3rd Rail cars, given that they have the Shasta Daylight colors and not those of the Coastal Daylight to match Daylight engines. Looks good with the black engine.

That's pretty close actually. But not as much as one might think, or so I recently found out.
I just was able to pick up a half set of the GGD Daylight cars from 3Bay for less than $100/car.
That's less than most K-line cars go for!
I'm still shocked I got them for as little as that.

Unless you have the 3RD rail GS4 in Daylight colors that matches the cars perfectly

But which means your GS4 is the wrong color.  

OK, I have to ask, what do you preseive is the difference between the "Coast Daylight" red & orange, and the "Shasta Daylight" red & orange? I am aware that the "Shasta Daylight" cars have the very large picture windows, but I'm not aware that they were different colors. 

Shasta Daylight colors in the top two pictures, vs. the Coastal Daylight colors in the bottom picture.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you cannot rely on old pictures. Colors shift and fade with time and they may have been altered back in the day as originals to suit some artistic eye in the publishing house. I know the Church book has the paint codes for the Daylight, not sure if it has the Shasta daylight or not. My understanding was that the older Coast Daylight cars where "retired" to the Shasta and other routes?

This was a Southern Pacific ad for the Shasta Daylight. It shows the colors used on the Shasta.

First let me say that you are letting some pretty crappy "color" photos cloud your judgement!

So, that said please allow me to present to you actual Southern Pacific technical paint specifications for the red & orange colors for ALL types of equipment:

1) Dupont #83-5451 RED, used on ALL passenger equipment, steam locomotives, and diesels specified to be painted in "Daylight Colors".

2) Dupont #83-5452 ORANGE, used on ALL passenger equipment, steam locomotives, and diesel locomotives specified to be painted in "Daylight Colors".

In conclusion, your assumption that the "Shasta Daylight" and the "Costal (sic.) Daylight" (they are 'Coast Daylight' Trains, NOT Costal) passenger trains were painted two different colors, is thus incorrect!

The California sun of course faded the red & orange colors over time, and it was certainly NOT uncommon to see any of the Daylight painted passenger equipment with odd looking color combinations, regardless whether the steam era, or diesel era. But to state that the SP had two different color specifications for different named Daylight passenger trains, is not consistent with the SP Mechanical Departments painting specifications.

You also might want to add that paint fades over time. Lighting conditions also effect how colors look.

A few more Shasta Daylight shots.

I checked both the Church and Wright books and they say nothing about any variations in the Daylight colors for different name trains. It is still a mystery to me why Lionel changed the colors on the PA1s to a darker color.  I love my GS-2 with the matching streamlined colors.

Apparently there were in fact different Daylight colors used, at least in the diesel era (the Shastas were pulled by diesels for the most part):

	EMD SD40R SP 7342 ex 8470 Rebuilt from SD40 to SD40R 12/80 and released in its first Daylight incarnation, variously known as 'Orangebird' or 'Yellowbird'. This loco went thru at least two variations of Daylight paint.

Oh, no, you're not disrespectful. You're absolutely right. And I don't really care if the Shasta Daylight was a different color or not. I have no horse in this race, as they say. I'm just looking at the evidence, and it appears it was. I'd really like to know.

But I have never seen a photo or advertising picture or anything that shows the Shasta Daylight trains being the same color as the Coastal Daylights. Not one. Every photo or ad or picture of any kind shows them being different. You'd think there would be at least some pictures of the Shasta that look the same as the Coastal, if indeed it was. It would be interesting to talk to members of the 4449 crew and see if they can shed any light on this question.

You don't use pictures or ads or engines painted decades after the fact, you use paint codes that the company specifies. Even then there can be variations within batches of paints made to the same spec. The Wright book (I mistakenly referred to the Church book earlier) clearly has all the paint codes and specs listed. With today's modern computer control paint color matching systems you can get pretty much exact off an original color chip, but until recently it was all done by eye and mixing the proper amounts of paint together per the specs. So two engines painted with different batches of paint might indeed be slightly different, but still be within the realm of the same spec. Unless we find a SP document listing different paint specs for the respective engines and cars, which somebody would have found by now, there is only one "Daylight" color scheme. 

First let me say that you are letting some pretty crappy "color" photos cloud your judgement!

So, that said please allow me to present to you actual Southern Pacific technical paint specifications for the red & orange colors for ALL types of equipment:

1) Dupont #83-5451 RED, used on ALL passenger equipment, steam locomotives, and diesels specified to be painted in "Daylight Colors".

2) Dupont #83-5452 ORANGE, used on ALL passenger equipment, steam locomotives, and diesel locomotives specified to be painted in "Daylight Colors".

Timdude is right, You cant argue Southern Pacific technical paint specifications for the red & orange colors for ALL types of equipment. print ink used in ads are different from paint used on trains. Kodak , Fuji, Polaroid film processes all had slight differences. Exposures also a factor when the photo was taken. Paint chips also fade over time. What matches wet may look different when it dries. that's the beauty of realism .

I have been a member of the 4449 locomotive crew since 1975. That is how, and why, I have the technical painting specifications for the red & orange paint requirements for SP passenger equipment. If you like, I can even provide the "modern era" paint part numbers for Dupont Imron line polyurethane red & orange as used on SP4449 today.

Let me state again that the Southern Pacific railroad did NOT have two different colors for their red & orange passenger colors! To be blunt, I don't care WHAT all your color photos show, the SP had ONLY one Daylight red, and ONLY one Daylight orange, PERIOD!  

Hot Water, once again thanks for your knowledge. This forum is a better place with the wealth of knowledge guys like you possess. There would be NO WAY SP would have separate colors for their Daylight train. 

Originally Posted by Hot Water:

So, that said please allow me to present to you actual Southern Pacific technical paint specifications for the red & orange colors for ALL types of equipment:

 

1) Dupont #83-5451 RED, used on ALL passenger equipment, steam locomotives, and diesels specified to be painted in "Daylight Colors".

 

2) Dupont #83-5452 ORANGE, used on ALL passenger equipment, steam locomotives, and diesel locomotives specified to be painted in "Daylight Colors".

. 

Apparently there were in fact different Daylight colors used, at least in the diesel era (the Shastas were pulled by diesels for the most part):

 

	EMD SD40R SP 7342 ex 8470 Rebuilt from SD40 to SD40R 12/80 and released in its first Daylight incarnation, variously known as 'Orangebird' or 'Yellowbird'. This loco went thru at least two variations of Daylight paint.

They're not talking about the actual colors used, but rather the scheme itself.

In any event I'm glad to have learned there is indeed only one color code each for Daylight orange and red. It would seem the manufacturers' variations have created the false notion that the "Shasta" was a more dull color in real life as well.

The two numbers you provided are the Dulux paint numbers.  The SP specification for the color would be Color Drift Panel #28 for the red and Color Drift Panel #29 for the orange.  There appears to have been a change in the orange at some time as the SP went from the 5452 Daylight Orange to 031 Omaha Orange.  I do not know if they were close or identical.  If someone had a set of the microfiche formula cards for Dulux they could probably tell.  The paint companies were forced to give up many of the matilic compound pigments, which were responsible vivid fade proof colors we used to see in paint.  The Daylight colors were probably made with compounds of murcury, lead and chrome.  When DuPont gave up on many of the matilic compound pigments, they cross referenced very few of the colors because it is difficult to do and in many cases exact matches are not possible.  DuPont did not use any of the color reference systems to record colors, they kept color drift panels. They could keep making the same colors by using the same formula.  But when the formulas were forced to change to get the metals out, they found the color drift panels to be in poor condition.  

Much of this work was done by George Rust, a DuPont employee.  George was also a rail fan and collected passenger train colors.  When George died unexpectadly his data base was almost lost.  It and a good deal of other information on passenger train painting can be found at www.railfonts.com.

Whoa. Some belligerent tones around here.  I don't care whether the colors are one way or another! I'm not running a paint company! I'd just like to know what the real deal is. If every Daylight engine/car was exactly the same color, that's fine.

It's just strange that SP would have used such different colors in its Shasta ads. And that there are no pictures anyone seems to have showing the Shasta in anything but colors that are different from the Coastal Daylights. And that there are no pictures showing diesels in anything else. I was beginning to think that maybe they painted their diesels in slightly different shades from the steamers.

Does anyone have any original pictures at all, including SP ads, of any SP diesels in the same paint as the current 4449? I've never seen any. They'd look sharper than the Shasta pictures we've all seen.

David Johnston,

You are correct about the changes to certain paint colors when the Federal Government outlawed the use of lead. That change all took place in the early to mid 1970s, and two railroads were heavily impacted. The C&NW and the Union Pacific both had to change the corporate color requirement. All of that took place long after the SP Daylight passenger service ended, due to Amtrak.

breezinup,

You are just NOT going to give up are you? It doesn't matter WHAT the SP used in their "print ads", since ALL their passenger equipment was painted the SAME RED & ORANGE!!!

When we returned the 4449 to the original Daylight styling & lettering in 1980 for the grand opening of the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento , we got the ORIGINAL paint specification "cards" from the laboratory folks at the Sacramento Shops, and had Dupont reproduce the same colors from the old lacquer paints to the polyurethane Imron Line. Upon our arrival in Sacramento, the "old gentleman" from the laboratory came over to the 4449 with the ORIGINAL 8"X10" color cards, and personally checked out our "new paint job"! Everything MATCHED EXACTLY!!!!

Yes... I picked up on that too.  And while I too have no horse in this race, I'm highly suspicious of such absolutes that are being professed here.  Perhaps they're true... Perhaps they're not.  And even if it were true, who's to say that the mere mortals of those times didn't introduce a variation (or two) along the way -- either intentionally or unintentionally?

One thing is VERY certain.  Even if we zoom in on Lionel's own products, the Coastal Daylight steamers and passenger cars are CONSISTENTLY brighter and more brilliant red/orange, while the Shasta Daylight diesel locos and cars are CONSISTENTLY more deeper red/orange, (with the latter almost approaching a golden orange).  Very noticeable and consistent.

Whether that reflects on reality 100%?   Well... when all is said and done, it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, 'cause these are TOYS.

David

Well that's it folks, it's the old "They are just toys" statement again! 

Do what you want. I gave you the facts and if you all chose to ignore them, have a nice day.

I'd like to vote this as the most fallacious and worn out concept in the entire hobby, right next to trains as investments 

As for the colors, I tend to believe the guy that's been directly involved in the restoration and operation of the actual 4449 all these years. I can understand the irritation when that knowledge comes under such fire....

Interesting. I think I will vote with Hot.  I actually saw these things as a kid - the Northerns, the E-7s, and the PAs.  They all looked the same color to me.

If you depend on photos, or worse, printed stock, for color info, you will not get it right.

i would guess that very few factory painted models actually get these colors correct, and further, I would guess that they do not care, so long as you buy the product.

Apples to oranges.  Most folks stopped talking about trains as investments around the time you were born.  Old news. 

I view these gems as toys, 'cause that's what they are.  It's a great outlook to have, and I'm having lots of fun with them.

David

What is important to me is when a manufacturer provides a passenger engine and passenger cars meant to go along with it, I want the colors to match.  Lionel did a great job in this respect when they came out with the earlier GS-2 and streamlined cars.  The added bonus was that the colors appear to be correct based on the color samples provided in the Church book.  When I saw the PA-1 Daylight locomotives I was interested in getting them until I noticed that they changed the Daylight colors for some reason so I didn't buy them.

Once they commit to a particular set of colors it is very important that they don't change them.  I think that is a reasonable request.

That's pretty much it. Even the RAIL railroads don't "get it right" sometimes. I've seen UP repaints next to very new locomotives and they don't match.

From a modeling standpoint, unless you have exact metal paint chips painted over the same primer that haven't oxidized you're subject to the fade factor. If you're matching a chip "lifted" from a prototype, you have to factor in fade, where it was painted (California has chemical restrictions up the wazoo), primer, etc. that influence the color.