Kline scale hudson tmcc doent move till step 10

Thats probably normal. TMCC without Cruise performs the same as if was operated with a transformer. Lubricating it along with making sure nothing is binding might help a little bit. Plus the greater the load the more power you will have to give it to start it moving.

Pete

Ok, good to know, thank you.

The cure is the ERR Cruise Commander M, it's a drop-in replacement for the DCDR motor driver in your K-Line.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The cure is the ERR Cruise Commander M, it's a drop-in replacement for the DCDR motor driver in your K-Line.

If I install a cruise commander and use the rs2.5 board, is there a chuff signal from the rs board to pass to the cc? Or do I just mount a Reed switch to the cc chuff input?

Thanks

Later RS 2.5 boards accept the chuff trigger via the serial data.  However, early boards apparently didn't do that, those you'd have to use the reed switch on the tender wheel.  I don't know how you distinguish the difference, I have little experience with the older boards except to replace them with modern versions.

I looked, I don't think any K-Line stuff had RS 2.5, I suspect you have at least RS 4.0 in that unit.  Those have no issue with serial data bringing over the chuff.

Is it possible the momentum is set?  Seem to remember something with CAB1 where you could adjust the starting voltage.

Fred

Momentum affects the rate of acceleration but not the point that the engine starts to move. The step numbers on a Cab 2 only have meaning for Legacy locomotives. They have less meaning for TMCC engines with Cruise but are not relevant for non cruise TMCC engines.

Pete

Thanks guys

So the reed switch chuff signal to an rs board or cruise commander is ground right? Not 18vac. So if I wanted to use the the rs 2.5 and cruise commander, I could send the chuff (switched ground) to both the boards in parallel?

Thanks

@Coalguy posted:

So the reed switch chuff signal to an rs board or cruise commander is ground right? Not 18vac. So if I wanted to use the the rs 2.5 and cruise commander, I could send the chuff (switched ground) to both the boards in parallel?

You don't need chuff to the Cruise Commander unless it's doing something with it.  Also, as I said, I don't believe any K-Line came with RS 2.5, maybe it's time for a picture of what is in your tender.

The K-Line scale Hudson with TMCC came with RS4 plus a two lobe cam for two chuffs and puffs. A Cruise M will give you cruise. 4 chuffs and puffs will require at least a new fan smoke unit and a new chuff generator. GRJ Has a solution. Some others just swap out the cam. John's is easier for most if not as economical.

Pete

We like frugal

I have that engine and was going to install cruise.  Do you just remove the DCDR and install the Cruise M board in its place.  No other wiring or soldering. 

Well, there is one wire.  You have to take the wire from pin-1 of the 10-pin connector (supplied with the CC-M), and solder it to the R2LC socket pin-24, serial data.  Other than that, you just remove the DCDR, mount the CC-M, and plug in the two connectors.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You don't need chuff to the Cruise Commander unless it's doing something with it.  Also, as I said, I don't believe any K-Line came with RS 2.5, maybe it's time for a picture of what is in your tender.

Sorry, this is for a MTH Y6b I'm gutting, installing the CC and using the RS2.5 since it has the mallet sounds. Didnt want to waste another thread....

So would I run the Reed switch output to the chuff in on the RS 2.5 board and the CC chuff in?

Or run the reed switch to the RS2,5 board and let serial control the CC control of the smoke unit chuff?

Thanks and sorry for the confusion.

Well, I don't know for sure if the RS 2.5 board requires an isolated chuff switch, I know all the newer boards do require that switch to be totally isolated.  I note that the "AC GND to Hall Effect Sensor" on the RS3 & RS4 boards is not common with frame ground, that seems to indicate they would need to be isolated.  Are you sure the RS2.5 set you have doesn't handle chuff via the serial data?  How do you expect to control the smoke unit chuff with the Cruise Commander? I do chuffs using the Super-Chuffer II as there is no capability to control the smoke fan with the bare Cruise Commander.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I don't know for sure if the RS 2.5 board requires an isolated chuff switch, I know all the newer boards do require that switch to be totally isolated.  I note that the "AC GND to Hall Effect Sensor" on the RS3 & RS4 boards is not common with frame ground, that seems to indicate they would need to be isolated.  Are you sure the RS2.5 set you have doesn't handle chuff via the serial data?  How do you expect to control the smoke unit chuff with the Cruise Commander? I do chuffs using the Super-Chuffer II as there is no capability to control the smoke fan with the bare Cruise Commander.

I forgot we are dealing with unidirectional coms to the tender. So the cruise commander smoke control is useless then? So I still need to buy a super chuffer to get the smoke chuffs and idle smoke? Also will need to change the resistor in the MTH smoke unit too, right?

I'm assuming the serial will tell the RS2.5 board to chuff audio, so a reed switch wouldn't be needed.

Thanks

So does the cruise commander give chuff data via serial to the RS board? Or do I also need your chuff generator?

Or as I said, send the ac common reed switch signal to both the RS board and cruise commander? Can they even share the same AC common? Or do I need 2 reed switches?

could a single board be made to do it all? Seems kinda crazy to buy all these boards, when it could be integrated into one at probally a lower cost.

You have to supply something to manage the chuffs.  There are various schemes around to do so, I was unhappy with all of the ones I saw, so I designed the Super-Chuffer to do that job.  Since a vast majority of TMCC stuff also only did one or two chuffs/rev of the drivers, there was also a need to have something to reliably generate 4-chuffs/rev.  I used to use a reed switch and magnets on the driver, but that was a PITA to position the magnets so they didn't hit the frame and also still triggered the reed switch properly.  So the Chuff-Generator was born and it's the companion to the Super-Chuffer II in my installs.

Click on graphic to expand.

As for the RS 2.0 or 2.5 boards, I've been told by someone that's done it multiple times that you can use frame ground reference to the chuff input.  That being the case, you may simply need an extra wire in the tether to bring the chuff back to the tender.  Of course, first find out if the chuff works from the serial data as you don't want both connected, really causes some interesting effects, been there, done that.

@Coalguy posted:

could a single board be made to do it all? Seems kinda crazy to buy all these boards, when it could be integrated into one at probally a lower cost.

I suppose it could if someone were to take up the task of designing it.  Since the Cruise Commander (and AC/DC Commander) already exists, and designing one of those would be significant work, I'm not planning along those lines.  Also, there's the possible patent infringement on the Cruise Commander design.  Given those factors, my only course of action was to create an add-on to do the functions of the Super-Chuffer, which is what I did.  Since the Chuff-Generator mounts on the motor and reads a flywheel strip, I needed a second board there anyway.  I didn't feel it made sense to combine the two functions as many people use the Super-Chuffer without the Chuff-Generator.  Not only would it increase the cost, it would also make the board larger.  Both were undesirable attributes, so here we are.

Note that this is only one solution to managing the smoke unit and some lighting features.  I used to do all of these, or at least the ones I desired for a job, with separate components hand wired.  That's another option if you want to go that way.

Not sure if it would help but maybe using the R100 mode on the Cab2. If I remember right had better luck on a K-Line engine using R100 mode.

For the 90's MTH Y6b, are the voltages of the lamps/ firebox, compatible with the cruise commander? It has a fan driven smoke unit, do I need to take a couple windings off the elemrnt or get a new element? 

The lamps are all 6V, and they're not compatible with the Cruise Commander.  I typically go with LED's anyway, so that's not a big issue for me.

For the smoke unit, you have to remove the two resistors and replace them with one 20 or 22 ohm resistor in the holes closest to the stack.  Just fill the other two holes with solder.

Is there an easy way to get the CC to run the 6v bulbs? Or a seller of less that would fit? Even the firebox?

oh, is the resistor a 1/8 watt? So the actual element can stay?

No, smoke resistors are 2 or 3 watt wirewound resistors.

Here's one I've used a lot: Yageo FKN2WSJT-73-22R.  I use my dremel wire wheel and gently remove the powder ceramic coating, turns it into a nice smoke resistor for small bucks.

How about the lamp issue?

You don't want less, you want more.  TMCC bulbs are typically 12V bulbs.  Honestly, I don't have any ready sources of 3mm 12V bulbs, I don't use many of them, and I have a bunch already in my parts box.  Like I said, I use LED's for most lighting in my upgrades.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You don't want less, you want more.  TMCC bulbs are typically 12V bulbs.  Honestly, I don't have any ready sources of 3mm 12V bulbs, I don't use many of them, and I have a bunch already in my parts box.  Like I said, I use LED's for most lighting in my upgrades.

So the cruise commander puts out 12v?

Any good places to get leads that work in these?

The Cruise Commander (AAMOF any RxLC based TMCC package) puts out half-wave track power for lighting in command mode and full-wave track power in conventional mode.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Cruise Commander (AAMOF any RxLC based TMCC package) puts out half-wave track power for lighting in command mode and full-wave track power in conventional mode.

So about 12v in command

I use bare LED's and add the appropriate resistors.  For headlights, I use white LED's and a 470 ohm 1/4W resistor.  For marker/class lights, I adjust the resistor value based on the color, red LED's typically need less current for equal brightness to green LED's.  I find it's about 4:1 for typical LED's.

I buy my LED's in quantity on eBay or one of the many parts sites, typically for less than 5 cents each.

Ok, I just didn't realize how different MTH was from Lionel in terms of voltages. I was hoping it was going to be more of drop it in and go. No problem, just going to take me longer to get all the LEDs and stuff.

But thanks, so much for the guidance.

If I use your Super chuffer and chuff gen, what exactly will I need to do to the PS1 fan driven smoke unit?

Thanks

Just set the stall speed on the TMCC engine.

Press "set" on the controller when your tmcc engine is on the powered up track. Get the engine rolling and turn the red knob back til it just about stops. Press set again.

That is all you need to do.

Wow, I will give that a try. Thanks

@Coalguy posted:

If I use your Super chuffer and chuff gen, what exactly will I need to do to the PS1 fan driven smoke unit?

You just disconnect the two fan leads and run them to the Super-Chuffer.  The TMCC smoke output from the Cruise Commander is run to the power of the PS/1 smoke unit and also to pin-9 of the Super-Chuffer.  It's pretty much the same as any other fan driven smoke unit.

@NelsonW posted:

Just set the stall speed on the TMCC engine.

Press "set" on the controller when your tmcc engine is on the powered up track. Get the engine rolling and turn the red knob back til it just about stops. Press set again.

That is all you need to do.

That doesn't give it speed control, to me a far greater need.

So no resistor change is needed?