Kudos to Lionel on the new freight truck design!

Ohh but that hideous thumbtack for the non kadee guy!!!

RickO posted:

Ohh but that hideous thumbtack for the non kadee guy!!!

I know right? That seems to bother some people I guess. I'm not sure how the thumbtack is an issue when there is still a lobster claw, but everyone is different. For Kadee peeps like me this is the bees knees :-)

Do the trucks have the same axle spacing and flange diameter as other three rail freight trucks? Obviously the coupler cannot be mounted any higher so removing bolster material is not an option. These look more like S scale trucks on this car.

Pete

What screws need to be removed for 2R. Does that lower the ride height? 

What did they change on the car to have to need a spacer ? On Weaver you only had to remove the claw coupler and mount the Kadee  That lowered the car and perfect coupler height. I like the new flat wheels. I wonder if the old Weaver trucks fit.

The Lionel cars always need a spacer for Kadees, even with the old truck design.

OK I think I see what the problem is the new trucks have a higher bolster? Great photos Jonnyspeed you did good. 

Certainly is nice if you're a 3RS guy. The two rail guys could care less since they don't use the 3rail truck. For those of us that that use the claw coupler we got screwed. These trucks are hideous. I sure won't be buying any. 

Rod Miller

Where do you get the metal coupler alignment tool that is in picture number 8? Is that an item you get from Kadee? 

clem k posted:

What did they change on the car to have to need a spacer ? On Weaver you only had to remove the claw coupler and mount the Kadee  That lowered the car and perfect coupler height. I like the new flat wheels. I wonder if the old Weaver trucks fit.

If you notice the car rides high. 

PSU1980 posted:

Where do you get the metal coupler alignment tool that is in picture number 8? Is that an item you get from Kadee? 

Local hobby shop if they carry Kadees or EBay

suzukovich posted:

clem k posted:

What did they change on the car to have to need a spacer ? On Weaver you only had to remove the claw coupler and mount the Kadee  That lowered the car and perfect coupler height. I like the new flat wheels. I wonder if the old Weaver trucks fit.

If you notice the car rides high. 

It isn't that bad. If the car height bothers you more than the 3rd rail, or the giant flanges then I don't know what to say about that...

PSU1980 posted:

Where do you get the metal coupler alignment tool that is in picture number 8? Is that an item you get from Kadee? 

Yes, that is a Kadee 2R coupler height gauge. It is the standard in 2R.

Just rec'd my first car (CGW) the other day and changed out the couplers.  As JS indicated, its a very simple operation and I applaud Lionel's upgrade to Kadee compatibility.  If you're a 3Railer and are bothered by car floor height, the truck bolster has extra material that can be milled off as long as the thickness of the spacer is reduced accordingly to compensate.

My criticism was that the car was too light and that, though provided with a "load", the plastic load shell did nothing but resonate and amplify every rail/wheel sound.  I removed the couplers, the body screws and the door rails and opened the car.  Two holes drilled side by side in each end of the load shell provided access and exhaust ports for the injection of foam insulation (the minimum expansion variety); masking tape sealed the edges of the load to prevent foam seepage; and stick-on square lead tire weights fit nicely stuck to the floor at each end of the load.  Reassembly was quick and painless and my issues were resolved in only about 15 minutes which included climbing the learning curve.

Aside from the claws and tacks, the trucks look nice but we've lost the realism of sprung trucks plus the additional weight of diecast material.  I like to load my cars equipped with sprung trucks until the springs actually go to work and that won't happen with these solid plastic castings.  Its a beautiful car, nicely detailed with a flawless paint job; however, the truck/coupler assembly is a mixed blessing.

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Just rec'd my first car (CGW) the other day and changed out the couplers.  As JS indicated, its a very simple operation and I applaud Lionel's upgrade to Kadee compatibility.  If you're a 3Railer and are bothered by car floor height, the truck bolster has extra material that can be milled off as long as the thickness of the spacer is reduced accordingly to compensate.

 

If you remove bolster material the car will be lowered closer to the trucks but how do you then raise the coupler which will now be below the height gauge? A raised coupler head version only gives you about a 1/16". Something odd about these trucks.

Pete

Norton posted:

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Just rec'd my first car (CGW) the other day and changed out the couplers.  As JS indicated, its a very simple operation and I applaud Lionel's upgrade to Kadee compatibility.  If you're a 3Railer and are bothered by car floor height, the truck bolster has extra material that can be milled off as long as the thickness of the spacer is reduced accordingly to compensate.

 

If you remove bolster material the car will be lowered closer to the trucks but how do you then raise the coupler which will now be below the height gauge? A raised coupler head version only gives you about a 1/16". Something odd about these trucks.

Pete

Lower it the same as the thickness of the spacer then remove the spacer. The coupler will be in the right pace and the car will ride lower. Going to be a bit of work to mill it down though. Not worth it to me, but ymmv...

Norton posted:

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

Just rec'd my first car (CGW) the other day and changed out the couplers.  As JS indicated, its a very simple operation and I applaud Lionel's upgrade to Kadee compatibility.  If you're a 3Railer and are bothered by car floor height, the truck bolster has extra material that can be milled off as long as the thickness of the spacer is reduced accordingly to compensate.

 

If you remove bolster material the car will be lowered closer to the trucks but how do you then raise the coupler which will now be below the height gauge? A raised coupler head version only gives you about a 1/16". Something odd about these trucks.

Pete

Reducing the thickness of the spacer by an amount equal to the reduction in truck bolster height, will raise the coupler height and keep you at gauge height.  My calipers have apparently migrated to the shop or north for nesting season, however, the spacer is approximately 1/8" thick and there is easily that much material in the truck bolster.  Eyeballing the side frame - wheel flange clearance indicates that reducing floor height more than 1/8th of an inch could wind up giving you clearance problems.

The trucks are NOT plastic

jonnyspeed posted:

The trucks are NOT plastic

OMG, I misspoke!  On closer examination, I find that the side frames are diecast screwed to plastic everything else - they just look plastic and have virtually no weight.  The springs are aren't plastic but they're just for show since the sideframes simply have truck bolster ends cast-in and the whole thing is rigid.  So, the trucks are "diecast", partially, and "sprung", for show only, and, therefore, junk.  I won't be "springing" for another.

The last "new" Lionel truck design featured the stamped sheet metal bolster which was also a disappointment for me.  MTH keeps hitting more and more home runs and Lionel hits more and more foul balls.  I buy both; Lionel was my favorite from childhood but MTH is becoming my go-to manufacturer for quality products.

I own this car and am a traditional three railer, not 3RS, so I won't be adding Kadee couplers.  I don't believe sprung trucks actually improve performance on freight cars, or anything else in our hobby.  They are decorative and that's it.  As  for additional weight, it just puts more strain on locomotives beyond a point.  These cars are certainly heavy enough to stay on the track, and that's all that weight does.  There is nothing wrong with the quality of these cars in my view. The use of some plastic in the truck is not a negative to me.  It's mostly metal in any case.  The trucks look attractive and are going to wear just fine. The thumb tack couplers are an aesthetic negative, but not a big deal to me.  If one wants to obsess about such minor manufacturing differences that have no effect whatever on performance and longevity, well, that's a personal preference, not an factual opinion about quality, in my view.  Beautiful car, which was available for about $57 at my dealer, Charles Ro.

Posting this just for comparison to an original Weaver car. I am not a 3RScaler but do use kadees on occasion to close the coupling gap or improve the front end of some diesels. Also some highly detailed scale rolling stock.

The coupler box is mounted directly to the under body and drop head (raised centershank) coupler is used. It appears that if the shim and bolster are reduced, the same result could be achieved.

Before:

After:

I know Mike explained the advantages of the new Lionel truck setup but would have preferred if they had simply stuck with the Weaver design on their Lionscale cars. If it ain't broke........

Pete

Well, you sure can't please everybody. This thread is nothing if not proof of that! I love how these cars accept Kadees, which are absolutely required for my personal ascetic. The claws and thumb tacks are just not acceptable on scale cars for me. 

I do find the cars are kind of light but, so far, see no need to weight them. Longer trains on sharper curves than  O-72 might make car weight an issue.

The fact the springs are cosmetic only is a plus for me. No more nightmares of flying springs when disassembling the trucks although, in truth, there is little need to in my case. 

I see there is room to shave down the bolster without the wheels making contact with the car underside for those who are sticklers for ride height. At first I did not think there was enough room for that. But shaving them down to the precise amount of the spacer thickness would require a repetitive precision I can't manage. Perhaps a jig could be cobbled together to ensure accuracy and repeatability? I have 18 of these cars to do, so the trouble of making a jig would be worthwhile. For the time being, the "high riders" do not bother me. 

For me, the new trucks, with included K-D spacers and self-tapping screws, are a huge plus.

 Looks to be a clever design. I'm a 3RS guy. When I ran with thumbtack couplers years ago. My biggest gripe with the Weaver setup was the truck pivot. It was a fine adjustment. You tightened the mounting screw just tight enough to allow the truck to pivot and the coupler not to droop downward. This issue seems to be resolved with the coupler screwed directly to the truck.

 As far as the ride height. I checked out the 2 rail conversion kits. Looks like the truck sides screw to a new mount. Which should lower the ride height. The coupler spacer I'm guessing will no longer be needed as the car should ride lower. If you wanted to get around a lot of filing you could buy the kit and sell the 2 rail wheel sets. You still may have to play around with the wheels clearing the chassis parts. 

 The car is reasonably priced in today's market. Adding Kadee's and running 3 rail looks easy. Most 3RS guys want the car to ride as low as possible. Looks like some work to do this unless you opt to buy the 2 rail conversion kit just to get a lower truck mount. Wondering how many 2 railers will buy these cars. After the initial expense of the car. You need to spend around $20.00 for the kit. Not bad if you could sell the complete truck to a 3 railer. Look at the prices Weaver trucks are bringing these days. All you are left with is a coupler with mount and a set of wheels. Not much of a market for these.  The $60.00 dollar car costs you over 80 after you add the couplers. With MTH and Atlas you can convert to 2 rail by switching out the entire truck for just a little more money than Lionel's kit and have something you can sell to bring the car to a more reasonable price. Or in Atlas' case. Just order up a 2 rail version or find a dealer that will convert it if they don't have what you want. I like the idea. Just wonder how many 3RS will go to the expense or work to fix the ride height. How many 2 railers will pay an inflated price for a car with the added expense of the conversion. How many standard 3 rail guys just plain won't like the coupler design and will pass on these. 

You would of thought they would have lowered the bolster. Then only thing needed was 2R wheel sets. It could of been a win, win for Lionel. Although the P48 crowd would have different thoughts.

Definitely a big step backwards for 3 railers from previous PS1 un-couplers.  

Disc, tab, tacks that most never use are a thing of the past. Even MTH has eliminated them.

One step forward two steps back.  Car rides way to high.

Hmmmm . . .

Here's a shot of a car with older Lionel trucks vs one with the new PS1 trucks.

Are the couplers themselves diecast or plastic?   Are these new PS-1 trucks the same as what is on the Lionscale cars(either 50t Bettendorf or 70t roller bearing)?   Has anyone out there mounted these new style trucks( 3 rail as is with lobster claw-no Kadee conversion) to any of the Weaver rolling stock and if so,  how did it work out?   Thanks

Nick

I'm stunned by some of the responses to be honest.  I think people are taking themselves WAY too seriously and need to enjoy their hobby instead of bashing so much.

I hope there aren't new people reading these responses. You'd think that this was the worst thing Lionel ever did. Note to newbies: A lot of people on here like to stroke their own egos and make themselves seem more knowledgeable than others by pointing out small flaws and exaggerating them. The 3 Rail hobby isn't as strict as other scales so there are more people who are ignorant about what is correct and what isn't. Unfortunately there are people that do know that use the opportunity to make themselves seem superior.

My opinion, have fun. Learn what is correct and what isn't IF YOU want to. If you don't care, then just do what you like. Don't let ANYONE tell you that your compromises are inferior to their compromises! What do I mean? These are all TOYS! I don't care what scale you are in, there are compromises in all of them. I don't see scale air tanks with 3 way valves that actually work on this car. No Glad hands or working coupler cut bars either. So what. It is supposed to be fun. If you like something, don't let anyone convince you that you shouldn't.

You know what's better than knowing something isn't correct and whining about it? Knowing it's not perfect, but being content with your purchase and enjoying it

I've modeled in N, HO, S, S Hirail, 3R, 3RS, 2R (O5W), and On30. I'm building a new 3RS layout because I like big trains, big sound, and big smoke. I wish that there was no such thing as a 3rd rail, but there is. Until 2 Rail Hi Rail catches on I will take the same approach as Mr. Bob Bartizek... I like big trains and they will all run on 36"r and I don't have a huge amount of space so I'll just have to ignore the 3rd rail.

Try to enjoy the hobby.

PS. Here is a photo of a prototype PS-1. It doesn't ride much lower than the Lionel model. It's close enough for me.

Eccentric Crank posted:

One step forward two steps back.  Car rides way to high.

You don't know the meaning of way too high.  The one and only scale freight car Lionel made for the Flyer line:

The sad part was they were very nice cars otherwise.

Rusty

In the case of the truck material, I withdrew my rant on the fact I thought they were plastic lol. If they are in fact diecast, even without springs, I probably wouldn't mind too much. I've always liked the realism on the real springs, but like I said, I probably wouldn't mind. But that of course is assuming these new trucks aren't sprung. As for the thumbtack couplers, they don't bother me too much, but I much prefer the hidden tabs.

Both those PS1s sit too high.  But I'll take one of those S scale BN hoppers.

Eccentric Crank posted:

Both those PS1s sit too high.  But I'll take one of those S scale BN hoppers.

Are you referring to the pic with the Lionel Canadian National reefer and the PS1 box car?

Hi,

I've converted 8 PS1 cars to 2 rail in the past. I had to make/lower the bolster and it was a mild pain in the butt that I found unecessary for other brands. The spacer would go unused in this situation. Twenty bucks for a 2 rail conversion kit interests me depending on how the kit bolster looks. Is there a photo of 2 rail kit somewhere? They are nice cars and 20 bucks would probably be worth it. Having the holes for the 2 rail couplers already there is pretty priceless, and long overdue. A big plus for Lionel in my view.

For me, the Lionel 480 series truck is where it is at.

Hard to believe the most important improvement with the trucks has not been mentioned here.  The rolling resistance is ridiculously low.  Turn the car over and spin one set of wheels...and wait...and wait...and wait for them to stop.  Better be sure wherever you spot these cars that the track is absolutely level.

Bruce

Bruce is right. These cars roll on forever!