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I have been playing with lashups quite a bit lately and have come up with things I like and dislike about both DCS and Legacy lashups. I wanted to share these so that others can chime in and add their own observations and experiences. This is not intended to to stir up an orange vs purple debate. I am sure there are many members who are exclusive proponents of one camp or the other. But I would like to hear what others have found and what you like and dislike about each system. Please lets keep it constructive. So here goes: (Note this is a control system topic and could have gone into either DCS or TMCC/Legacy category. So I just picked one, it does not mean it is the favorite or the best!)

There are some fundamental differences between lashups with the two systems; here is a brief comparison with some of my pros and cons for each. Both work well and are quite reliable.

DCS

Arguably building an AA or ABA lashup is easier with DCS than with Legacy. PS-2 and PS-3 multi-unit diesels are inter-connected by 10 pin tether cords (similar to steamers) that are positioned just underneath the couplers and plug in from unit to unit. (Note 1) They are somewhat visible however, which some find objectionable. The tether carries signals between the units, smoke unit, coupler, and lighting signals, etc. Powered B or trailing A units are typically equipped with “slave” boards that respond to commands from the lead unit to control its motors, smoke unit, lights, etc. Some sets are AA; one powered, one dummy. Others are ABA sets with two powered A units, and a dummy B. Some sets have addon dummy B units available separately which will tether right in with the base set and run together just fine. (Note 2) All lead A units are intended to run cab forward while trailing A units run cab backward, which is how most roads ran MU’d AA units.

When connected together all units automatically behave as one unit and answer to the lead A unit address and commands. Very easy to “build” a lashup with this system, and they cannot get “out of sync”. It can be a bit tricky to plug the tether cords in from unit to unit though; it is a two-handed job and takes some getting used to. One good way is to lay the units end to end on their sides on a protective surface. Then plug in the tethers and lift them onto the track as one. Once assembled it is best to leave tethered units connected and parked on the layout if you can.

Tethers can also be a major headache if you have a multi-unit derailment or other problem in a hard to access area of the layout. There is often no good way to get the tethers disconnected and it's impossible to lift more than 2 connected units out without help. Good luck with the rescue!

Most often 3 unit Premier sets have both A units powered and a B unit dummy. You can run the full ABA set or just the AA units. If preferred you can also run the AB units together without the trailing powered A unit, but if the rear coupler on the B unit is fixed only, it obviously will not uncouple. Typically RK sets are one powered unit and either one or two dummies.

A lashup of dissimilar (untethered) diesels is basically done by assigning separate engines to a Train name, as is a steam lashup. Assemble the lashup per instructions using the DCS handheld or engine manual, and give the lashup a unique recognizable name. Note if you put power to a previously dead block where a lashup is parked, the engines won’t see a watchdog signal of course, and will startup in conventional. No worries; when you push DCS Startup the lashup will work properly.

Legacy/TMCC

With Legacy and TMCC each AA or ABA diesel unit is a separate entity with no electrical inter-connection between. Each has its own power rollers, motors, independent lighting, couplers, smoke units etc. Unless a unit is completely non-functional (like B units), each will have separate command electronics including a radio board, motherboard, RCMC, sound board, etc, Higher end sets will often have smoke units in each unit, electro-couplers on both ends, directional headlights, markers, MARS, cab lights, etc. Lower priced sets have less features. Some sets have addon B units sold separately, which may be dummy, powered, or have Railsounds or Superbass sound systems.

There are a couple of ways you can lash these units up. Simplest way is to assign the same ID number to each unit. Then all units will start up and operate as one, connected or not. All will make smoke, sound, etc simultaneously on command, as equipped. Easy peasy. But a problem arises with the couplers since all will respond to either the F or R coupler command.

For instance if the trailing A unit is non-powered but has electro-couplers on both ends, activating the Rear coupler while moving will disconnect and leave the trailing unit. Likewise a B unit rear electro-coupler will open when R is pushed, which will disconnect the trailing A unit if present. (Not a problem if there is no trailing A unit of course!) This can be avoided though if the B unit has a switch to disable the rear coupler when there is a trailing A unit; most newer B units do. And it’s a non-issue for an AA lashup if each unit has electro-couplers only on the nose.

Another potential issue with using the same ID number is some sets come with the trailing A unit configured to run nose end forward, same as the lead unit (common with early Legacy) This means both headlights/cablights will be on in forward, both backup lights in reverse. When you open the Front coupler, again the trailing unit will disconnect and be left behind if unpowered. Not great.

A better but more complex way to lash these units up is to assign different ID numbers to each, and build a Train. (Use a couple of unique digits from each unit’s road number) Follow the Cab2 guidance to assemble your lashup, or page 60 on of the Legacy manual. Basically you assign a Train number, push Info, then the Build softkey. Start with the lead unit, then add the intermediate unit(s), then finally the trailing unit. With each you can choose which direction it will run with the push of the Dir softkey. When done push the Set softkey and the units will program, which takes several seconds. You will hear whistle sounds, then the engine startup sounds, and you are good to go. Address the Train ID number and they should all behave as one. Engine sounds will be heard from all units as equipped; whistle only from the lead unit. Directional lighting, markers, cab lights etc should alternate from lead to trailing unit depending on direction. All smoke units should turn on and off on command. TMCC lashups follow slightly different keystrokes to program, but they behave similarly. A lashup of separate steam engines is built the same way. Refer to the manual.

A Few Caveats: Note that with multi-unit diesels in a Legacy/TMCC lashup, if you remove one or two units the remaining lashup will still work fine. The Cab2 does not seem to care that one or more units are missing. Also note that an engine programmed in a lashup can supposedly be part of another lashup at the same time. And any engine in a lashup can also be operated separately by addressing its unique Engine ID number. Pretty handy. Occasionally an engine in a lashup will miss a command, get out of sync and fight the other engines, or not move at all. When this happens simply power the track down, wait 10-15 seconds, then power up and address the lashup, and all should be well once again. If this doesn’t fix it, delete the train and rebuild it.

Note that when a Legacy lashup is programmed the information is stored in the Cab 2 handheld. This means the lashup will only operate with a Cab 2; and not with any TMCC or Cab1L handhelds.

Also note that when you shut down a Legacy/TMCC lashup and leave the track powered, the sounds will be dead if you address it again. You must power the track down, then re-power it and address the Train for the sounds to function. This behavior applies to separate engines as well of course.

Note 1: PS-1 sets used 4 pin connectors with the receptacle at the front of each trailing unit. PS-2/3 sets use 10 pin connectors and the receptacle is on the rear of each unit, while the tether cord is at the front of each trailing unit.

Note 2: If an MTH AA or ABA set has been upgraded from PS-1 by installing a full Diesel Upgrade Kit in both powered units, they should be lashed up as separate PS-2/3 engines. No tethering is required between any units in this case.

Rod

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As you say, both systems have pros and cons.

DCS:

From my experience, the DCS lash-ups can be a bit finicky to get working. Especially after shutting them down and coming back again later. I've also had issues getting all engines to have sounds and smoke running together. I often have to select one engine and adjust it. Sometimes the volume is quite different between them. Most of these issues are encountered when using a PS2 and PS3 loco together.

However, once they run, they run in perfect sync and never go out of sync.

TMCC/Legacy:

I find getting a lash-up configured and running super easy with Legacy. They pretty much always work and run in lock step. For TMCC, the units need to be the same generation/model to run well, and I often have to fiddle with momentum and Odyssey/Cruise settings. For ERR boards I often have to mess around with the speed steps too. But building the lash-up in the remote is usually pretty easy.

The bad part is keeping them in sync. Any sort of relative speed step control (REL100, CAB1) always ends in a derailment or other mishap. The only thing that works for me is TMCC 32 absolute step mode with the CAB-2 or MTH Remote/App or Legacy control with the CAB-2. So running lash-ups with a CAB-1 or CAB-1L is prohibited on my railroad.

Last edited by rplst8

I agree that probably the easiest one to live with it the Legacy lash-up configuration and operation.  They're seamless, you get the nice visual aids on the CAB2, and I've never had any problem with them.

One issue with TMCC or Legacy lash-ups.  If you're running and one locomotive loses power and it's configured to run in reverse, sometimes they get out of sync and you have to reset the lash-up to get them back in sync.

This topic comes up from time to time and I always report the same result. Simply, I have not been able to run PS3.0 steamers and electrics successfully; after programming multiple engines into the DCS "lashup" they seem to run okay for that session. After shutting down and coming back later, the lashup no longer functions. There's something wrong with PS3, even while running under the latest software upgrades. I get around this by using the "All" feature.

@Paul Kallus posted:

This topic comes up from time to time and I always report the same result. Simply, I have not been able to run PS3.0 steamers and electrics successfully; after programming multiple engines into the DCS "lashup" they seem to run okay for that session. After shutting down and coming back later, the lashup no longer functions. There's something wrong with PS3, even while running under the latest software upgrades. I get around this by using the "All" feature.

Paul, I'm curious about your findings with coming back later and the lash-up no longer functions. Have you tried a different DCS Remote and or TIU? I'm wondering if there is something wrong with one of them that isn't saving the state of the lash-up correctly.

I have had issues in the past with individual engines toggling features as mentioned (like smoke or sound) but not complete inoperability.

Earlier today I made this post to another topic dealing with DCS problems:

"One very annoying thing about DCS is you can have a lashup working perfectly one day, then park it on a siding overnight, and the next day (or week) you get “Engine Not on Track” What? Where did that come from? And no amount of retrys or track Reads seems to make any difference.

My workaround is I have to power the lashup up in conventional, then move it out to the mainline somewhere and hit Startup to get it working properly. Once this happens all is well again. For a while. Weird."

I do admit to using older V5.0 of the software, both in the TIU and all handhelds. For sure there are later revisions but I don't run subway cars, nor do I use a WIU. V5.0 has always done everything needed. And I am not convinced that upgrading for no other reason would solve this flakey lashup behavior.

Rod

Great thread.

My experience has been the following: Legacy/TMCC-very few issues with either building a "Train" lashup, running the lashup, and coming back to it another day.

DCS- Very little issue setting up the lashup, running the lashup. When I come back the next day, etc, it may or may not recognize the lashup. I also have noticed that if I have a lashup in the engine list, I have trouble with the system finding a new engine that I am placing on the layout. I have good signal strength everwhere. If I then delete the lashup, the system finds the engine and loads it first try. I will say I am using an older TIU with WIU and app. I know my TIU is prob on its swan song. I have a WTIU on preorder. I am waiting to see what happens with a new TIU!

Mike

How soon they forget.

Install this board in a DCS Remote Commander and you have continuous watchdogs.



OK familiar with that. I have one installed for the yard and TT tracks, and it works fine. Thought you might be referring to an addon device installed on each channel output of a TIU to do the same thing for it. Do you think that might be possible? And able to be retro-fitted?

Legacy/TMCC - Never had any critical issues with Legacy or TMCC lash ups. I really like using the Cab2 remote for either. Have not tried Cab3 yet for lash ups. I have used Cab1, Cab1L, and Cab2 with no issues.

DCS - Being a Club runner I don’t have a home layout I have run a lot of MTH engines at various clubs I have belonged to but never ran or created a lash up. To tell you the truth I do not own any MTH engines with command control only running I do with MTH engines is an open houses when running other members engines (with their permission).

JohnB

my observations are unfortunately only on the Lionel front I have 0 experience with MTH “lash ups”.

Most of the quirks Rod pointed out with TMCC/LEGACY.

I would add that on occasion the limitation of TMCC “TR” numbers from 1-9 can be frustrating in the club setting but I highly doubt it’s a real problem on personal layouts.

as far as LEGACY it typically works really well and I use it a lot. Enough to know that original early LEGACY models with a DCDS run 1-2 speed steps faster. The one saving grace is on those models you can turn off odyssey but even then that can give you some erratic starts and stops. I’ve also found the speed curve can be slightly different so at one speed it may be closer than others.

but like I said I use it a lot and it’s typically a very solid and simple system

@Rod Stewart posted:

I have been playing with lashups quite a bit lately and have come up with things I like and dislike about both DCS and Legacy lashups. I wanted to share these so that others can chime in and add their own observations and experiences. This is not intended to to stir up an orange vs purple debate. I am sure there are many members who are exclusive proponents of one camp or the other. But I would like to hear what others have found and what you like and dislike about each system. Please lets keep it constructive. So here goes: (Note this is a control system topic and could have gone into either DCS or TMCC/Legacy category. So I just picked one, it does not mean it is the favorite or the best!)

There are some fundamental differences between lashups with the two systems; here is a brief comparison with some of my pros and cons for each. Both work well and are quite reliable.

Legacy/TMCC

With Legacy and TMCC each AA or ABA diesel unit is a separate entity with no electrical inter-connection between. Each has its own power rollers, motors, independent lighting, couplers, smoke units etc. Unless a unit is completely non-functional (like B units), each will have separate command electronics including a radio board, motherboard, RCMC, sound board, etc, Higher end sets will often have smoke units in each unit, electro-couplers on both ends, directional headlights, markers, MARS, cab lights, etc. Lower priced sets have less features. Some sets have addon B units sold separately, which may be dummy, powered, or have Railsounds or Superbass sound systems.

There are a couple of ways you can lash these units up. Simplest way is to assign the same ID number to each unit. Then all units will start up and operate as one, connected or not. All will make smoke, sound, etc simultaneously on command, as equipped. Easy peasy. But a problem arises with the couplers since all will respond to either the F or R coupler command.

For instance if the trailing A unit is non-powered but has electro-couplers on both ends, activating the Rear coupler while moving will disconnect and leave the trailing unit. Likewise a B unit rear electro-coupler will open when R is pushed, which will disconnect the trailing A unit if present. (Not a problem if there is no trailing A unit of course!) This can be avoided though if the B unit has a switch to disable the rear coupler when there is a trailing A unit; most newer B units do. And it’s a non-issue for an AA lashup if each unit has electro-couplers only on the nose.

Another potential issue with using the same ID number is some sets come with the trailing A unit configured to run nose end forward, same as the lead unit (common with early Legacy) This means both headlights/cablights will be on in forward, both backup lights in reverse. When you open the Front coupler, again the trailing unit will disconnect and be left behind if unpowered. Not great.

A better but more complex way to lash these units up is to assign different ID numbers to each, and build a Train. (Use a couple of unique digits from each unit’s road number) Follow the Cab2 guidance to assemble your lashup, or page 60 on of the Legacy manual. Basically you assign a Train number, push Info, then the Build softkey. Start with the lead unit, then add the intermediate unit(s), then finally the trailing unit. With each you can choose which direction it will run with the push of the Dir softkey. When done push the Set softkey and the units will program, which takes several seconds. You will hear whistle sounds, then the engine startup sounds, and you are good to go. Address the Train ID number and they should all behave as one. Engine sounds will be heard from all units as equipped; whistle only from the lead unit. Directional lighting, markers, cab lights etc should alternate from lead to trailing unit depending on direction. All smoke units should turn on and off on command. TMCC lashups follow slightly different keystrokes to program, but they behave similarly. A lashup of separate steam engines is built the same way. Refer to the manual.

Rod

Rod,

  Thanks for such a detailed post about running cab units in AA, ABA, and ABBA configurations. As I am a TMCC/Legacy guy and do not own any MTH equipment I deleted most of the DCS info to keep my response as short as possible. I do not have a lot of Cab units. I have the TMCC AA PRR Sharks AA set where both engines are powered have railrounds smoke etc. I also have a TMCC ABA set of PRR Alco FA units where only the lead A unit is powered the trailing A is non powered but has TMCC for lights, coupling and smoke control. Sorry for note using item numbers but all my stuff is in the attic and unavailable. My last cab set is a Legacy PRR Legacy E8 set where the front A unit is powered and the rear A is non powered but does have Legacy to control lights, coupling and smoke. I never had any issues with the AA or ABA sets uncoupling while running them using one engine number on all units because all the rears couplers of A units and both couplers on B units are non operating or dummy couplers. I would hope Lionel stop using electro-couplers on the rear ands of A units or on B units. I guess if Lionel is selling a AB set the rear coupler on the B unit would need to be electro for uncoupling from the train but excluding AB sets use dummy couplers on the rear ends of A units and all B units (except AB sets).

    The other big benefit of using dummy couplers is that your AA, ABA and ABBA sets will be close coupled as electro couplers are usually longer and if a dummy coupler is too long you can get a different shorter dummy coupler from Lionel if you want close coupled sets for minimum costs.  Just my opinion and if using TMCC engines where train numbers can only be from 1 to 9 you can save the train numbers for non cab lash ups. I don’t think most O gauge guys break up their ABBA sets to run different combos of AB or ABA units but I am guessing that one.

   I guess MTH could use the same method of using dummy couplers only on B units and the rears of A units too.

Thanks

JohnB

JohnB; you make some good points, thanks! I have a TMCC PA4 AA set that has electrocouplers front and rear of both units, and yes the spacing bewteen units is huge. Think I’ll try to scare up a couple of dummy couplers and swap them out. I undrestand that some folks may want to run the lead A unit alone at times and having an operating coupler on the rear would work well. But around here they will always be an AA pair or ABA set.

One way to accomodate all options would be to include spare dummy couplers with the engine set (for what little they cost) so the electrocouplers can be swapped out for those of us who will only run them as a multi unit set.

On another note several posts up I commented about DCS lashups that worked fine one day, and showed “Engine Not on Track” the very next day. So yesterday just for fun I played around with the same 3 lashups that caused problems the day before. Guess what? Each one started up perfectly (even those on sidings) and ran perfectly.

I’ll never understand how DCS trains can be so balky one day and perfect the next. Such are the mysteries of DCS. As others have noted Legacy/TMCC lashups rarely cause these kind of problems. I tried to figure out what might be different that could account for this behavior. Came up blank though. Maybe its an even and odd day thing haha!

Rod

@rplst8 posted:

Paul, I'm curious about your findings with coming back later and the lash-up no longer functions. Have you tried a different DCS Remote and or TIU? I'm wondering if there is something wrong with one of them that isn't saving the state of the lash-up correctly.

I have had issues in the past with individual engines toggling features as mentioned (like smoke or sound) but not complete inoperability.

Roger on trying different TIUs and remotes, yet nothing helped. Maybe my DCS signal strength isn't a perfect 10 all around my layout, yet until someone reports that they've had successful lashups of PS3 engines (not ABA units) I will be of the opinion that there's something amiss with PS3 engines, or at least PS3 Bipolars and Triplexes which have been my problem children. Note that I can make successful lashups of PS2 engines.

@Paul Kallus posted:

Roger on trying different TIUs and remotes, yet nothing helped. Maybe my DCS signal strength isn't a perfect 10 all around my layout, yet until someone reports that they've had successful lashups of PS3 engines (not ABA units) I will be of the opinion that there's something amiss with PS3 engines, or at least PS3 Bipolars and Triplexes which have been my problem children. Note that I can make successful lashups of PS2 engines.

Interesting comments Paul. I am going to try a PS-3 lashup and see if I can get it to work. Not sure I ever tried.

Troubles with flakey lashup behavior is exactly why we gave up on running them at train shows years ago. A train show is not where you need misbehaving trains!

Well here is my ever-so-unlikely test lashup of two PS-3 SD-70Ace's:

SD-70 Lashup

Notice the horrible paint flaking on the WM engine. This one has been boxed up since new, but I have never seen an engine do this. It is from 2012, the CP was bought this year. Both RK's.

But to the question at hand, both engines loaded into a lashup just fine. Both started up and ran as a lashup just fine. Sounds work, lights, couplers etc. 100% Then I shut the lashup down, powered off the track and started it up again. One engine came up in conventional and was basically a paperweight. Got a "Check Track" message. Well yes, the track appears to be there for sure! Started up again and all was well again. All working as expected. I disconnected them from each other and ran them to check speed; all good, they paced each other perfectly. And by the way, this is all using my ancient V5.0 of the software! (One thing I often forget the first time through building a DCS lashup, is to hit "D" at the end of the naming. If you don't do this of course, the name is lost and you get to start the whole procedure all over again)

Now will this lashup startup again tomorrow? Or the next day, or next week? Who knows, total crap shoot. Time will tell.

Rod

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  • SD-70 Lashup

That's ugly Rod, never saw one do that either!

Me neither John; hope I never see another. No way to know if it was a bad batch of paint, reaction to the foam handrail stiffeners, packing materials, who knows. Never any evidence of zinc rot or anything similar around here in 30 years. So I am at a loss. When first unpacked and test run, it was fine. I have to think if these were a bad batch of paint or poor application method it would have been reported on this forum long before now. But it can't really be a one of. Only the white seems to be affected; the red and black look OK. Gives it character though, it almost looks like it could resemble peeling paint on a full size engine, revealing grey primer paint underneath. Haha.

I originally bought it to pull the cars in an older 1990's Lionel WM Service Station Set, where the set engine is a conventional old school GP-20 of course.

@Rod Stewart posted:

Well here is my ever-so-unlikely test lashup of two PS-3 SD-70Ace's:

Then I shut the lashup down, powered off the track and started it up again. One engine came up in conventional and was basically a paperweight. Got a "Check Track" message. Well yes, the track appears to be there for sure! Started up again and all was well again. All working as expected. I disconnected them from each other and ran them to check speed; all good, they paced each other perfectly. And by the way, this is all using my ancient V5.0 of the software!

I wonder if this is a cap charging problem.  Maybe wait an extra 15 seconds after applying track power?

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