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Hello, I have been dealing with a voltage drop issue for a few months now and I finally got some time to work on it. My layout consists of two loops of fastrack. The bigger loop has O-48 curves and the smaller loop has O-36. The loops are connected with command switches both left and right hand. (These are also in O-36) My layout is powered by a single connection to the track via a CW-80 transformer. I also have the original command base to run command equipped locomotives. I have been doing research on this issue I’ve been having on the forums and in articles.I tried tightening pins, that didn’t work. Soldering jumpers had a temporary fix but didn’t last overtime. So I finally got a MTH 12 port distribution board and need help with connections. My question is, can I run bigger wires on the distribution board to supply more power? How would I make the connections? Sorry for the long paragraph, this is my very first layout. Although I’ve been running trains on the floor for years, this is new to me.

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Use 14 or 16 gauge stranded copper wire to make your connections. If you can get paired wire that differentiates (usually color or striping) between pos and negative, it will be easier. Strip each end of the first paired wire which has been cut to length for your first connection from the distribution board to the track. Crimp a spade connector to each wire end and connect them to the #1 posts of your distribution board using a Phillips screwdriver, and note which colored or striped wire is connected to the pos and neg posts on your distribution board.

Run the wire to the first place you want to connect to the track. Since you are using Fastrack, purchase these .110 female connectors off Amazon. Strip the wire ends of your paired wire that will connect to the track and crimp one of the female .110 connectors to each wire end. Now flip a piece of standard Fastrack over (not a switch or fitter piece) and there should be two metal tabs in the middle - one for pos to the center rail and one for common to the outside rails. Slide the respective female connectors over the tabs being sure to observe correct polarity and you're done. Now repeat the same procedure for 11 more connections from the distribution board to your loops (6 connections each loop), spacing the connections out on the trackage as equally as you can.

Now connect your transformer to the input terminals of the distribution board, again observing correct polarity.

For a neater look, you can drill holes in your layout table top under each piece of track you intend to use for a connection and run the wires from the distribution board up through the table top and then to each track connection.

Hope this helps.

FASTRACK .110 FEMALE CONNECTOR

     

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I think I’ll stick with the black and red, just to keep thing simple, red for positive or hot and black for common. Keeps things simple. Another question, can the transformer connections be 14 or 16 gauge wire? They say that electricity flows like waters, the bigger the tube or pipe, the more water flows through. Kind of the same thing for electricity and wires.

Hello, I have been dealing with a voltage drop issue for a few months now and I finally got some time to work on it. My layout consists of two loops of fastrack. The bigger loop has O-48 curves and the smaller loop has O-36. The loops are connected with command switches both left and right hand. (These are also in O-36) My layout is powered by a single connection to the track via a CW-80 transformer. I also have the original command base to run command equipped locomotives. I have been doing research on this issue I’ve been having on the forums and in articles.I tried tightening pins, that didn’t work. Soldering jumpers had a temporary fix but didn’t last overtime. So I finally got a MTH 12 port distribution board and need help with connections. My question is, can I run bigger wires on the distribution board to supply more power? How would I make the connections? Sorry for the long paragraph, this is my very first layout. Although I’ve been running trains on the floor for years, this is new to me.

What you are really asking is about is resistance. The amount of amount of voltage drop over a given wire versus distance and load. Here is a simple way to find out:https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/voltage-drop.

@ThatGuy posted:

What you are really asking is about is resistance. The amount of amount of voltage drop over a given wire versus distance and load. Here is a simple way to find out:https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/voltage-drop.

I’ll use this after the wiring, but my layout 100 percent needs to be wired. If the fastrack doesn’t work after that, I’ll have to switch brands unfortunately. But let’s hope I don’t have to do that.

I think I’ll stick with the black and red, just to keep thing simple, red for positive or hot and black for common. Keeps things simple. Another question, can the transformer connections be 14 or 16 gauge wire? They say that electricity flows like waters, the bigger the tube or pipe, the more water flows through. Kind of the same thing for electricity and wires.

My personal preference is 14 gauge from transformer to distribution board and 16 gauge from distribution board to the underside of the Fastrack.

Attached is a picture of how the connections to the underside of the Fastrack pieces should look.

FASTRACK TERMINAL CONNECTIONS

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Good advice to date. Apparently you are wiring your layout with Lionel technology.  So the paths of the power wires that connect to the FastTack pieces doesn't matter much; just install wires along the shortest distance(s).

You may know that MTH recommends using a "star" wiring pattern with all wiring of feeder paths cut to the same length. In your case, you can ignore that point.

Carry on ...

Mike Mottler     LCCA 12394

Good advice to date. Apparently you are wiring your layout with Lionel technology.  So the paths of the power wires that connect to the FastTack pieces doesn't matter much; just install wires along the shortest distance(s).

You may know that MTH recommends using a "star" wiring pattern with all wiring of feeder paths cut to the same length. In your case, you can ignore that point.

Carry on ...

Mike Mottler     LCCA 12394

Although I’m using Lionel Technology, can I still use the star wiring method? I’ve seen a video on that about a week ago. It looks a lot simpler than the bus. Plus it’s fastrack so I pretty much don’t have to solder due to the connectors you can use.

@Richie C. posted:

My personal preference is 14 gauge from transformer to distribution board and 16 gauge from distribution board to the underside of the Fastrack.

Attached is a picture of how the connections to the underside of the Fastrack pieces should look.

FASTRACK TERMINAL CONNECTIONS

Sounds like a lot of wires, how much wire would I have to buy in order to complete this? Maybe 100 feet or more, I’m not sure. I’ll try to keep you guys updated as I begin this process.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

You don't need a bus line - the MTH distribution box ("d-box") replaces a bus line. Just connect your CW-80 transformer outputs to the red and black terminals of the d-box and then connect the 12 terminals of the d-box to your two loops about equally spaced apart as explained above.

One way to get close to a star pattern is to mount your d-box to the underside of your table top in the middle of the layout and run your transformer outputs to it. Then just run the d-box terminal posts equally around the layout from underneath.

Attached are two pics showing the transformer connection to the d-box and then the output wires from the d-box to the track. Also, a layout diagram with only 5 connections for illustrative purposes, but you'll need at least 8 (four for each loop).

I can't explain it much better than this. It has nothing to do with whether you're using Fastrack or any other type of track system.

Without knowing the size of your layout it's impossible to know how much wire you'll need. At a minimum, you'll need 8 lengths of red wire and 8 lengths of black wire to run from the central d-box location to each of the 8 track connections. How long each wire length needs to be will simply be a reflection of how long the run is from each d-box terminal to where you connect to the track. That's why I earlier suggested using paired wire, since you only need to make one run (and split the wire) for each track connection. You'll also need wire to connect the transformer to the d-box.   

You can see in the marked photo with the yellow circle how using paired wire makes the wiring job much easier.

ELECTRONICS MARKED 11ELECTRONICS 4ELECTRONICS 11

   

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Last edited by Richie C.

I found some paired wires on Amazon but I think they were made for cars, could this work for my layout as well? ...snip

It's been strongly recommended here on the Forum to avoid that type of wire.  It's copper clad aluminum.  Maybe you don't intend to solder it now, but it you ever do, it's a poor choice.  I suggest spending a little more on pure copper stranded wire, like speaker wire.

@SteveH posted:

It's been strongly recommended here on the Forum to avoid that type of wire.  It's copper clad aluminum.  Maybe you don't intend to solder it now, but it you ever do, it's a poor choice.  I suggest spending a little more on pure copper stranded wire, like speaker wire.

I found another example of wires, this time it’s copper but it’s tinned, I also have a description on the wires themselves. Sorry if I am bringing up different types of wires, I’m just making sure I buy the right thing.



IMG_4187

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Have you had success with these and crimped connectors? Just thought I would ask before buying them. I was busy again so I couldn’t do anything with the layout for a little bit.

Yes, I've had success with low strand count wire and crimped connectors.  A few things help improve the long term reliability rate:

  1. Follow the crimp connector manufacture's guidelines for selecting the correct size connector for the wire gauge to be used.  Industry standard is blue for 16 gauge wire.
  2. Good crimpers really help.
  3. When stripping the insulation, I like to barely separate the cut piece of insulation and temporarily leave it on the end of the wire.  Next I twist off that piece of insulation, kinda like removing a screw.  This twist gives more for the crimp to grab and keeps salt and oil from my fingers off the copper.

If you want the ultimate low resistance reliable connection, tin the wire ends and solder on the connectors.

Hey guys I plan on buying the disconnects today, I found a brand called no main, I  used there 18 gauge female connectors and they just didnt make a tight connection. So I found another brand for the 16 gauge connectors, has anyone tried this brand? They cost $3 plus tax.

I meant to say Baomain.

FROM THE MODERATORS:
When you make a mistake like this, just edit your original post and fix it. There is no need to  make another post like this.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

Adding the extra terminal feeds should resolve the issue.  Im still perplexed why the soldered jumpers don’t work.  Here’s a pic of what I did, just because for me it was simpler on a large permanent layout to solder rather than add terminal connections every piece of track.

Reliable trains are more fun!  Glad you are persisting!

IMG_2086

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Adding the extra terminal feeds should resolve the issue.  Im still perplexed why the soldered jumpers don’t work.  Here’s a pic of what I did, just because for me it was simpler on a large permanent layout to solder rather than add terminal connections every piece of track.

Reliable trains are more fun!  Glad you are persisting!

IMG_2086

I’m shocked I didn’t work for me either, but at least I can learn some new skills along the way. I’m not sure if it’s because they were 18 gauge. I had no issue with the 16 gauge at the r that one was soldered, but I think this method will distribute the power better. I’m also trying everything I can because it’s not the engines themselves. Both of my command engines started  acted erratically ever since I had this issue. Maybe I just got a bad set off Amazon? Hopefully when this is all finished, I can run my trains like I intended.

It’s been awhile, but I managed to get the connectors and the wire for the track connections under the layout. Should I get the same brand of wires for the 14 gauge? Another question, what size connectors are needed for 14 gauge spade connectors that hook up to the transformer. My last question for right now is what type of connectors are needed for the distribution board itself. Should I get some type of spas connector or is there something better?

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If you only need short lengths of the 14 gauge wire for your bus wiring (between transformer and distribution block(s)), buying THHN stranded electrical wire cut to your desired length by the foot at a home improvement store may be less expensive than buying a longer than you may need roll of 14 Ga pure copper speaker wire (plus shipping).  14 Ga. THHN stranded is usually available at most big box home stores with Black, Red, Blue, White, and Green insulation.  Check the short unwanted cut wire section for discounts.

For crimp connectors, fork terminal connectors with a blue jacket are meant for 14 to 16 gauge wire.  Note that the fork's inside dimension needs to be wide enough to go around the terminal screw, and the fork's outside width dimension needs to be narrow enough to fit inside the terminal block separators (plastic nub between adjacent terminals).   These connectors are also available in the electrical section at home stores.

You should be able to pick up similar forked terminals at your local box store like Lowes or Home Depot. Make sure they are sized correctly for the wire you are using and that the "forks" are wide enough to fit over the screws on the distribution board but small enough to fit in the distribution board terminal slots. You may have to experiment to find the perfect fit.

Even if they aren't a perfect fit, you can make the "forks" slightly smaller or larger, as required, using a pair of pliers.   

Hello, I have been dealing with a voltage drop issue for a few months now and I finally got some time to work on it. My layout consists of two loops of fastrack. The bigger loop has O-48 curves and the smaller loop has O-36. The loops are connected with command switches both left and right hand. (These are also in O-36) My layout is powered by a single connection to the track via a CW-80 transformer. I also have the original command base to run command equipped locomotives. I have been doing research on this issue I’ve been having on the forums and in articles.I tried tightening pins, that didn’t work. Soldering jumpers had a temporary fix but didn’t last overtime. So I finally got a MTH 12 port distribution board and need help with connections. My question is, can I run bigger wires on the distribution board to supply more power? How would I make the connections? Sorry for the long paragraph, this is my very first layout. Although I’ve been running trains on the floor for years, this is new to me.

Go on Amazon look for 14 gauge speaker wire pure copper. It comes in 200 foot rolls at a reasonable price and it’s two different colors making wiring very easy.

My $.02.  I would suspect workmanship over wire size is more of an issue of voltage drop.  #16 wire has a resistance of .004 ohms per foot, a 10 foot run would be just .04 ohms of resistance. A 250 watt ZW transformer will deliver almost 18 maps into a load at 14 volts, which is a drop of only .72 volts.  #16 is approved to handle up to 22 amps in point to point wiring situations.  As an example, I have a piece of equipment that draws 112 amps at 28 volts on turn on, and the load  is fed with #4 stranded to minimize voltage drop from the power supply. But, once inside the load unit, that 112 amps at 28 volts for that instant travels along short runs of #10 wire, but the run is so short, the resistive loss is acceptable.  Of course if you are going to have this amount of continuous current, bigger wire is better.  Total resistance has to be measured from the terminals of the transformer to the connection at the rail, and push on terminals, finger tight screw terminals like Banana Jacks, all contribute a tiny bit.  For crimp ons, a crimper that also puts a divot in the connector is better than just one that squeezes it, (  https://www.amazon.com/Klein-T...ulated/dp/B0006M6Y5M ) and all wire to push on terminals can be helped by soldering the wire to the terminal plus the crimp. If you have a voltage drop that effects trains speed or accessory brilliance, I would look at connection integrity first, and also whether you are exceeding the rating of the train transformer.  A 250 watt ZW is spec'd for total load, as are all train transformers, for the current of the trains, lights, and accessories, not 250 watts for each of the 4 rheostat controlled outputs in the ZW's case.

As a P.S., when you strip a wire, if you cut out strands you lower the wires capacity.  In the world where electrical inspections are part of the job, nicks or cut strands are not allowed and most electricians are careful when they cut the insulation.  Most of us who don't use a wire stripper, take a knife and make a circular cut and then pull off the insulation.  Fine if you don't remove strands, and not really a big issue unless you remove a lot of strands, but it can add up if you do this over and over, in increasing resistive loss. A 5 or even 10 volt drop in a 120 volt circuit using #16 wire  may have no effect on what ever is powered, but  drop of a volt or two when at 14VAC is a different animal

Last edited by CALNNC

" to the track via a CW-80 transformer"

It sounds like you would be well off ("My question is, can I run bigger wires on the distribution board to supply more power?" Shades of Tim the Toolman here) to use the 80 watt for lighting and switch/accessory power and try to get a hold of a Z1000 brick for your mainlines. Just a thought on my end.

"I would suspect workmanship over wire size is more of an issue of voltage drop."

And this is true of so many things! The OP should be able to run (I did not see how big the two loops were that he was running, so I may be speaking out of school here) a length of 16ga lamp cord to each of the loops, and have very little power loss using a good transformer.

Or, he should be able to run a 16 ga lamp cord to within 8 feet or so of his inner track lockon, and split and clean the two ends, then wire nut to that end, two 16 ga lengths long enough to have one go to his inner loop, and the other one to go to his outer loop, and power his track/train. I am a little lazy, so I did not go back to see if he was running 2 high drain engines on each loop...but we are not powering up a Tesla.

Most posts relate to wire size, and crimps, but again, the fact is that for some really good use, wire nuts will do. Though the neat, clean appearance of crimps are better, and they are much more permanent, I really think he needs to concentrate on getting, as he said, "more power" and just see how things run.

Once he accomplishes that, then move on to permanancy and aesthetics. I put up a picture - see above somewhere - of a really crappy wiring job. But when done a few years ago, it would run 5 or 6 MTH PS2 engines on big loops with siding and passing tracks, have numerous working accessories, and many lighted houses, and towers etc. It looked crappy (that is why it stayed under the board) BUT, it ran that Christmas layout for months with no problem. Trains ran on 2 - Z1000 bricks via DCS.

The original MTH switch wires must be 20 or 22 ga. - really crappy stuff for a switch that costs that much. I ran them through holes, and under the board wire nutted 4 strand ( I only used 3 of the strands!)  solid copper phone wire for 20 foot runs (what ga is that 22???) All switches worked fine, there were probably 13.

That picture is NOT what I would want to run permanently, but I think if the OP can do something like that to figure out if it is track, connections, engines or whatever drawing his power, then he can get to the "neatening up" phase. Soon, he will have great wires and connections, and too little power going through them.

Me, I'd still opt for more power....a better transformer. But- that is just me.

Last edited by cngw
@cngw posted:

" to the track via a CW-80 transformer"

It sounds like you would be well off ("My question is, can I run bigger wires on the distribution board to supply more power?" Shades of Tim the Toolman here) to use the 80 watt for lighting and switch/accessory power and try to get a hold of a Z1000 brick for your mainlines. Just a thought on my end.

"I would suspect workmanship over wire size is more of an issue of voltage drop."

And this is true of so many things! The OP should be able to run (I did not see how big the two loops were that he was running, so I may be speaking out of school here) a length of 16ga lamp cord to each of the loops, and have very little power loss using a good transformer.

Or, he should be able to run a 16 ga lamp cord to within 8 feet or so of his inner track lockon, and split and clean the two ends, then wire nut to that end, two 16 ga lengths long enough to have one go to his inner loop, and the other one to go to his outer loop, and power his track/train. I am a little lazy, so I did not go back to see if he was running 2 high drain engines on each loop...but we are not powering up a Tesla.

Most posts relate to wire size, and crimps, but again, the fact is that for some really good use, wire nuts will do. Though the neat, clean appearance of crimps are better, and they are much more permanent, I really think he needs to concentrate on getting, as he said, "more power" and just see how things run.

Once he accomplishes that, then move on to permanancy and aesthetics. I put up a picture - see above somewhere - of a really crappy wiring job. But when done a few years ago, it would run 5 or 6 MTH PS2 engines on big loops with siding and passing tracks, have numerous working accessories, and many lighted houses, and towers etc. It looked crappy (that is why it stayed under the board) BUT, it ran that Christmas layout for months with no problem. Trains ran on 2 - Z1000 bricks via DCS.

The original MTH switch wires must be 20 or 22 ga. - really crappy stuff for a switch that costs that much. I ran them through holes, and under the board wire nutted 4 strand ( I only used 3 of the strands!)  solid copper phone wire for 20 foot runs (what ga is that 22???) All switches worked fine, there were probably 13.

That picture is NOT what I would want to run permanently, but I think if the OP can do something like that to figure out if it is track, connections, engines or whatever drawing his power, then he can get to the "neatening up" phase. Soon, he will have great wires and connections, and too little power going through them.

Me, I'd still opt for more power....a better transformer. But- that is just me.

I should have added this in along time ago but my layout is 8x8 with 4 fastrack switches which connect my two loops. I’ve tested my engine with some random track and the command system for about 15 mins to see if I get the same issues. Luckily it didn’t happen, so that would rule my locomotive out of the problem.

Ok so I’m gonna try an and get some work done down on the layout tommrow. I was wondering what screen size works best for fastrack and the MTH distribution board? Also should I desolder my jumpers that I made previously before I do this? Most of the jumpers I made were just 18 gauge wire and one of them was a small 16 gauge jumper.

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Last edited by TheRoyalHudson988
@SteveH posted:

I’m guessing you mean screw size to attach FasTrack to the table?  #4 Wood screws work well.

With your new bus and feeders, if you’re not still not planning to use DCS command control, you can leave the jumpers that run between consecutively attached pieces of track.  They will help provide better overall conductivity.

Yes I mean the fastrack, also would this size of screw work for the MTH distribution board as well? I have a diagram I can show later of the wiring idea that I have.

My recollection is that the MTH distribution board comes with mounting screws and black plastic spacers so the back of the board does not rest directly on your wood mounting board. If the screws are missing, you would need ones taller than the #4 wood screws - probably on the order of a #6 or #8 wood screw. You could always bring your MTH board and a spacer with you to the hardware store and test fit to see which screws work best.

imageimage@Richie C. posted:

My recollection is that the MTH distribution board comes with mounting screws and black plastic spacers so the back of the board does not rest directly on your wood mounting board. If the screws are missing, you would need ones taller than the #4 wood screws - probably on the order of a #6 or #8 wood screw. You could always bring your MTH board and a spacer with you to the hardware store and test fit to see which screws work best.

That’s good to know, unfortunately mine didn’t come with screws since I got it on eBay. So I would probably have to buy those. I have a picture of the screws and the diagram I made. The only concern I have for these screws is that when I tried to screw them in on a random peice of track, the went in a little too tight. As to where they didn’t fit. Is this the size I should be using? I’m asking about the size of the screw because it looks like it stretches out the plastic a little bit.

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Last edited by TheRoyalHudson988

Adding the extra terminal feeds should resolve the issue.   Here’s a pic of what I did, just because for me it was simpler on a large permanent layout to solder rather than add terminal connections every piece of track.

Reliable trains are more fun!  Glad you are persisting!

IMG_2086

I like this .   I've done this .  It works well Dan.





@cngw posted:


........... use the 80 watt for lighting and switch/accessory power and try to get a hold of a Z1000 brick for your mainlines. Just a thought on my end.

"I would suspect workmanship over wire size is more of an issue of voltage drop."And this is true of so many things! a really crappy wiring job. But when done a few years ago, it would run 5 or 6 MTH PS2 engines on big loops with siding and passing tracks, have numerous working accessories, and many lighted houses, and towers etc. It looked crappy (that is why it stayed under the board) BUT, it ran that Christmas layout for months with no problem. Trains ran on 2 - Z1000 bricks via DCS. ............

..............Me, I'd still opt for more power....a better transformer. But- that is just me.

I've been using a Z1000 for my test track.      I have also been using a Z1000 on over 170 feet of Realtrax on my permanent layout. I've run-up to 5 trains at a time plus using the track power for all my 17 switches and 75 percent of my lighting ( over a 100 LEDs ) .  I use a Lionel 1033 transformer for the other 25 percent of the lighting.

The Z1000s have been good little transformers since 2017.       ( I use the DCS / Remote system ) 

That’s good to know, unfortunately mine didn’t come with screws since I got it on eBay. So I would probably have to buy those. I have a picture of the screws and the diagram I made. The only concern I have for these screws is that when I tried to screw them in on a random peice of track, the went in a little too tight. As to where they didn’t fit. Is this the size I should be using? I’m asking about the size of the screw because it looks like it stretches out the plastic a little bit.

1. Those screws will not work for the track. They are too fat/thick (# 6) and too short (3/4") to use to secure your track to the tabletop. For that purpose, they should be #4 and about 1"  to 1 1/4 " long depending on whether you have roadbed, foam or homasote between the trackage and your plywood base. For Fastrack, I've found that the #4 shaft size is okay, but the head sticks out above the plastic too much for my liking. Therefore, I use a countersink to drill out a small amount of the plastic, so that the screw head sits flush with the plastic.

2. The longer #4 screws may work with the MTH distribution board, too, but you will need to trial fit. You should also pick up some plastic washers to use as spacers under each screw hole in the MTH board so the backside of the board does not touch the mounting board.

2. In your diagram, you show a command base being hooked up to the distribution board. Assuming it is a Legacy command base, I would not do it that way. There should only be "pos" and "neg" coming from your transformer to the distribution board. You should then run two wires from the "one wire" terminal on the command base - one to the negative /outside rail of the outer loop and one wire to the negative/outside rail of the inner loop.

Last edited by Richie C.
@Richie C. posted:

1. Those screws will not work for the track. They are too fat/thick (# 6) and too short (3/4") to use to secure your track to the tabletop. For that purpose, they should be #4 and about 1"  to 1 1/4 " long depending on whether you have roadbed, foam or homasote between the trackage and your plywood base. For Fastrack, I've found that the #4 shaft size is okay, but the head sticks out above the plastic too much for my liking. Therefore, I use a countersink to drill out a small amount of the plastic, so that the screw head sits flush with the plastic.

2. The longer #4 screws may work with the MTH distribution board, too, but you will need to trial fit. You should also pick up some plastic washers to use as spacers under each screw hole in the MTH board so the backside of the board does not touch the mounting board.

2. In your diagram, you show a command base being hooked up to the distribution board. Assuming it is a Legacy command base, I would not do it that way. There should only be "pos" and "neg" coming from your transformer to the distribution board. You should then run two wires from the "one wire" terminal on the command base - one to the negative /outside rail of the outer loop and one wire to the negative/outside rail of the inner loop.

For the command base, it’s just the classic Tmcc command base. I’d figure that having on the Distribution board wouldn’t work, as the things on the diagram might change. I can always have the wire for the command base on one of the oustide rails of the track as I have now. As of now before I do anything to the layout, it’s just connected to an outside rail on a 10” straight piece of fastrack. Thanks for letting me know about the screws by the way, I thought something didn’t look right.

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