Legacy C-Liner Smoke Fails in first five minutes.

@RixTrack posted:

I received a Lionel 2233311 Pennsylvania C-Liner for Christmas this morning.  I put it on the track programmed it and put some smoke fluid in and ran it around my small layout. On the fourth lap the smoke billowed out of the sides and the smoke unit fan screamed and stoped. Five hundred plus dollars for five minutes of run time.  

I hear ya but ...

Did you contact Lionel first before coming here to complain to folks who can do nothing about your situation, short of talking you through the process of taking it apart and fixing it?  (Which we will gladly do if you're interested).

If you're not a tinkerer, or a patient collector, don't buy from them again, or MTH, or Bachmann, or Atlas, or Menards either.

These things happen in our hobby.  Fortunately they don't happen to everybody, and don't happen often.

Mike

Been there as well. The disappointment sucks...

Hope you can get it sorted quickly.

I know two people that had DOA shorts out of the box.

Bummer.  Hope you can get it fixed or exchanged reasonably quickly.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I hear ya but ...

Did you contact Lionel first before coming here to complain to folks who can do nothing about your situation, short of talking you through the process of taking it apart and fixing it?  (Which we will gladly do if you're interested).

If you're not a tinkerer, or a patient collector, don't buy from them again, or MTH, or Bachmann, or Atlas, or Menards either.

These things happen in our hobby.  Fortunately they don't happen to everybody, and don't happen often.

Mike

It was Christmas morning.  Lionel is closed.  I reported it here so others can be wary to check their new locomotives.  This is the second of my locomotives with a smoke unit to fail shortly after initial operation.  Apparently there is a problem with the supplier.   I have purchased only two new Lionel locomotives this year and both have had the same issue with the smoke units.  This is not a comment on Lionel in general as  I’ll leave that to others.  

Well, the issue has been resolved.   I contacted Lionel and they told me that I sent it in for service I could expect to have it fixed and returned to me by mid MARCH!  

I contacted the dealer I purchased this item from and they are replacing it and testing the replacement before it leaves them.  

Apparently, some dealers really care about their clients.  Proving it really does matter where you buy your trains.

@RixTrack posted:

I reported it here so others can be wary to check their new locomotives.  This is the second of my locomotives with a smoke unit to fail shortly after initial operation.

...

I have purchased only two new Lionel locomotives this year and both have had the same issue with the smoke units.

Thank you for posting. This sort of feedback is the only way other consumers can be informed. Tinker or not, we all like to know what kind of gremlins are out there to get us with these products - especially when they are priced at such a premium, warranty terms are so strict and short, and getting items serviced is quite a pain.

RixTrack - your post has value, and I appreciate that you posted it. We have some  apologists who seem to believe their favorite brand should be immune from criticism.

@rplst8 posted:

... especially when they are priced at such a premium, warranty terms are so strict and short, and getting items serviced is quite a pain.

To me, if your observations are indeed true, all of the negative comments we see indicate clearly to anyone interested in buying to proceed with caution, unless they don't mind fiddling around and tinkering with what they get.

Odds are that purchasers will be disappointed and back here complaining if they don't.

Expecting perfection is not a good idea, I don't care how much it costs.  This is a hobbyist industry and as such it should be clear that it's incapable of delivering it.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

To me, if your observations are indeed true, all of the negative comments we see indicate clearly to anyone interested in buying to proceed with caution, unless they don't mind fiddling around and tinkering with what they get.

Odds are that purchasers will be disappointed and back here complaining if they don't.

Expecting perfection is not a good idea, I don't care how much it costs.  This is a hobbyist industry and as such it should be clear that it's incapable of delivering it.

I'm not sure I understand your point. You chastised the OP for posting here first.

Regardless of whether Lionel or the dealer fixes his problem, it's good for all to know about out-of-the box and near-term failures. That way, we can all test the similar items we buy before the warranty expires.

@rplst8 posted:

I'm not sure I understand your point. You chastised the OP for posting here first.

Regardless of whether Lionel or the dealer fixes his problem, it's good for all to know about out-of-the box and near-term failures. That way, we can all test the similar items we buy before the warranty expires.

I didn't say that it wasn't a good idea.

The original post was actually about two things, one technical and one emotional.

I have no problem with us sharing the technical details of an observed failure.  You're absolutely correct here.

I do take exception to emotional responses from people who are spoiled.   All of us need to accept the fact that this industry is incapable of delivering perfection.  Unfortunately it's a given.

From an emotional perspective we either accept this, or we move on to another hobby that is more capable of perfection.

BTW -- Good luck finding one of those.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I do take exception to emotional responses from people who are spoiled.   All of us need to accept the fact that this industry is incapable of delivering perfection.  Unfortunately it's a given.

With all due respect, it's not your place to be chastising others for their emotions.  Everyone's emotions are different, I would suggest just passing the post by if it offends your sensibilities.

Jeeesh.  I’m sorry I brought it up.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

I do take exception to emotional responses from people who are spoiled.   All of us need to accept the fact that this industry is incapable of delivering perfection.  Unfortunately it's a given.

Wow.  Take “exception” all you want, but folks aren’t “spoiled” for expecting (very expensive) products to be manufactured correctly. Again, wow.

I own several Lionel Tmcc locomotives that have been flawless runners since the day they came out of the box 15+ years ago.

Perfection?? Well , I'd say clearly Lionel has done better in the past.

If Lionel wants to give us these $500, $1000, $2000 locomotives for free. Then we're spoiled.

I'm inclined to think most of us work, or have worked for our train money.

Rick, that’s spot on and a big part of why I find it so curious when folks are chastised for being frustrated with a problematic product release: virtually nothing being currently released is new!  Almost everything is a rerelease of something they’ve built well before. Even the “best of the best” - Vision Line - is now rereleasing stuff.

In a recent case, the hobo cars are not new: they’ve made the hobos in their excellent accessories, the scale PS-1 boxcars are fantastic and have been made for years, and Lionel is the recognized leader in sounds, including freight sounds.  So, it was entirely reasonable for folks to assume these cars would be excellent and their disappointment has merit.

It has nothing to do with expecting perfection out of some cutting edge product, but rather simply expecting them to execute on something they’ve done well countless times before.

Agree on all counts with the above.  There are a number of posters here, not just MHM, who seem to think it is their place to chastise anyone who says anything critical about Lionel, MTH, etc.   This is a forum about O gauge trains and commentary and criticism on the products, including new ones that fail out of the box within a few minutes, are fair game so long as the discussion is informative and constructive.  The original poster's complaint is completely within that description.

Personally, I think most of it has to do with the anonymity offered by many of these forums and is part of the downside of internet and electronic based communications as compared to traditional, face to face discussions.  People say things on a forum that they would never say to someone if they knew the person or it was a more direct environment.  It is what it is.  

I always think it is best to contact the manufacturer and/or the dealer with any issues BUT I also think it’s important to share experiences here as well. It benefits us all.

I also think, as the OP later responded, how the issue was handled by the manufacturer and/or dealer is important to relay. I suspect Lionel’s 3 month return is due to the time of the year so getting the dealer to handle it was a plus.

This forum is a perfect platform for discussing issues like this.

Here are some photos of the smoke unit. Mine did the same, I noticed the basin for the smoke unit is rather large. The stack tends to bubble and block the smoke from going up. Lots of smoke fluid inside the shell. Melted gasket. 20 drops were put in. Batting was nice and crispy. Smoke unit impeller is very loud

@RickO posted:

I own several Lionel Tmcc locomotives that have been flawless runners since the day they came out of the box 15+ years ago.

BTW, the smoke unit fans on these have run practically silent from day 1 as well.

@biscuitag97 here are some steps to help with the noise issue.

Unfortunately, sometimes these things do happen no matter what manufacturer, so hopefully, this video can show and (offer a sound) that will possibly solve some issues or provide some insights on what occurred.

Issue: Noisy smoke fan.  (Yes not the same scenario as the original post but someone posted a noise issue on the thread which may help resolve.)
Resolution: Some light oil on the motor for the impeller of the smoke unit.

Not everyone can do this or open up their units so please take this with a grain of salt and we recommend you reach out to your dealer or Lionel before doing anything.
**We are not recommending people attempt this, just showing people the video to shed some light on this.**

Below are some pictures/videos and steps to get the noise under control. 
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5lrfTrLz8Dk

1. There are 6-8 screws to take off the shell from the body. 
2. there are 3-4 screws on the smoke unit top that attaches to the impeller and gasket that needs to be removed.
3. With a tweezer gingerly pull the black impeller out.  (if you are not careful you might break this so be careful.
4. Drop some light oil in the hole/male shaft
5. Close everything back up

Hopefully, this helps you or your dealer to better assist everyone.  It took us 5 minutes and only needed a screwdriver, foam matt, tweezers, and some light oil. 

@RixTrack posted:

Well, the issue has been resolved.   I contacted Lionel and they told me that I sent it in for service I could expect to have it fixed and returned to me by mid MARCH!  

I contacted the dealer I purchased this item from and they are replacing it and testing the replacement before it leaves them.  

Apparently, some dealers really care about their clients.  Proving it really does matter where you buy your trains.

Again thats not rue as well, some dealers are set up to do a repair and some are not; it does not make is a good or bad dealer. Also Lionel would not approve any work on a new product period. It must go back to them, if they open it up and leave nay marks and then it has to go back to Lionel that will be the end of the warranty.

This is one reason, I rarely use the smoke units. I feel problems arise so I just don't use them or use them after I have the loco for a while. For example I have the Legacy Penn Central GP30 that was released last year. I read on here that the smoke units were just not good. So I just don't use them.

@ThatGuy posted:

Again thats not rue as well, some dealers are set up to do a repair and some are not; it does not make is a good or bad dealer. Also Lionel would not approve any work on a new product period. It must go back to them, if they open it up and leave nay marks and then it has to go back to Lionel that will be the end of the warranty.

I think his point is some dealers trade out defective products (and return them to Lionel for credit) and some tell you that you’re on your own and to deal with Lionel directly. He’s right, there is a difference.

@Rider Sandman posted:

I think his point is some dealers trade out defective products (and return them to Lionel for credit) and some tell you that you’re on your own and to deal with Lionel directly. He’s right, there is a difference.

I miss this whole thing, Lionel dealers clearly state if they are a authorized repair center. For smaller dealers to absorb the cost of the return and wait for a credit does not work. BTW a credit does not pay the bills, is not an option.

@ThatGuy posted:

I miss this whole thing, Lionel dealers clearly state if they are a authorized repair center. For smaller dealers to absorb the cost of the return and wait for a credit does not work. BTW a credit does not pay the bills, is not an option.

If a dealer knowingly sells a product that they will not accept a return on and doesn’t state that up front, that is very dishonest.

@ThatGuy posted:

I miss this whole thing, Lionel dealers clearly state if they are a authorized repair center. For smaller dealers to absorb the cost of the return and wait for a credit does not work. BTW a credit does not pay the bills, is not an option.

I 100% agree with your sentiment.  But, it does create a difference. Some dealers can make a buyer whole immediately and some can’t. There are good reasons why some can’t, but, as a buyer, knowing up front who can and who can’t might be useful information. That’s all anybody is saying.  You decide what’s important to you from there…..

@rplst8 posted:

If a dealer knowingly sells a product that they will not accept a return on and doesn’t state that up front, that is very dishonest.

I guess you never owned a business. Lionel clearly states all defects under warranty must go back to them, asking a dealer to eat engine is not fair to the dealer. He has bills to pay, the rules are clearly stated by Lionel

@ThatGuy posted:

I guess you never owned a business. Lionel clearly states all defects under warranty must go back to them, asking a dealer to eat engine is not fair to the dealer. He has bills to pay, the rules are clearly stated by Lionel

I have owned a business and the dealer in my case isn’t eating anything. He told me he was returning to Lionel and Lionel will fix and sell it as refurbished.  

I am fully cognizant of the pit falls of owning a business and dealing with suppliers that fall short of expectations. Small family-owned businesses are at the mercy of both their customers and their suppliers.  This particular issue may comeback to haunt Lionel as it appears that one of their suppliers of the parts used in the assembly of their products has come up short.  Lionel will no doubt, take a credit against future purchases and only fix those pieces that make it back to them. This is how business is done in the current era. Lionel and its leadership are in a precarious position and the decisions that have been made as to their product selection in the past four catalogues have not all been winners.  

@ThatGuy posted:

I guess you never owned a business. Lionel clearly states all defects under warranty must go back to them, asking a dealer to eat engine is not fair to the dealer. He has bills to pay, the rules are clearly stated by Lionel

So, who should eat it?  Some dealers have decided it isn’t fair to ask their customers to do so. Others haven’t. Both are making a business decision. Know who is who.  Neither is “wrong.”  That’s the only point being made.

@RixTrack posted:

I have owned a business and the dealer in my case isn’t eating anything. He told me he was returning to Lionel and Lionel will fix and sell it as refurbished.  

I am fully cognizant of the pit falls of owning a business and dealing with suppliers that fall short of expectations. Small family-owned businesses are at the mercy of both their customers and their suppliers.  This particular issue may comeback to haunt Lionel as it appears that one of their suppliers of the parts used in the assembly of their products has come up short.  Lionel will no doubt, take a credit against future purchases and only fix those pieces that make it back to them. This is how business is done in the current era. Lionel and its leadership are in a precarious position and the decisions that have been made as to their product selection in the past four catalogues have not all been winners.  

First Lionel could care less, the O gauge hobby is really the only one we’re your warranty starts at date of build not purchase. Also while it is the cost of doing business, in todays world that cost is much higher. So the store made you whole and your happy. That’s great but you are lucky he one had the engine and two could afford to wait and have his money tied up. Unlike a hardware store or other retail, after the Christmas push he may not order from Lionel for a few months. Lionel sits on the cash, sells the engine and he has nothing to show for it.

somone also asked the question who should make the customer whole, that was very simple. Lionel wanted to the customer did not want to wait. This is neither a failure on Lionel’s part or the store.

@Rider Sandman posted:

So, who should eat it?  Some dealers have decided it isn’t fair to ask their customers to do so. Others haven’t. Both are making a business decision. Know who is who.  Neither is “wrong.”  That’s the only point being made.

I may have used the wrong term or came across wrong, we live in the world now of BTO. Most stores cannot swap out anything,  also many stores sell Lionel but do not buy direct, they go through a company like Emery because for what ever reason they never became a direct Lionel dealer.

I also understand the frustration of a toy that does not work or fails quickly. I think the customer should try to see the side of the store, tight margins low supply and strict manufacturing rules. Sometimes you have to let the builder make it right.

@ThatGuy posted:

I guess you never owned a business. Lionel clearly states all defects under warranty must go back to them, asking a dealer to eat engine is not fair to the dealer. He has bills to pay, the rules are clearly stated by Lionel

It varies by state, but generally speaking a retailer must accept returns unless they display a return policy. In some cases, the presence of a return policy is irrelevant if the product is defective. Retail sales are covered by an implied warranty as part of common law in most jurisdictions.

If the dealers aren't getting the support they need from the manufacturer, maybe they should demand better terms.

@rplst8 posted:

It varies by state, but generally speaking a retailer must accept returns unless they display a return policy. In some cases, the presence of a return policy is irrelevant if the product is defective. Retail sales are covered by an implied warranty as part of common law in most jurisdictions.

If the dealers aren't getting the support they need from the manufacturer, maybe they should demand better terms.

Good luck with that, your in the wrong hobby.

@TrainWorld.com posted:

@biscuitag97 here are some steps to help with the noise issue.

Unfortunately, sometimes these things do happen no matter what manufacturer, so hopefully, this video can show and (offer a sound) that will possibly solve some issues or provide some insights on what occurred.

Issue: Noisy smoke fan.  (Yes not the same scenario as the original post but someone posted a noise issue on the thread which may help resolve.)
Resolution: Some light oil on the motor for the impeller of the smoke unit.

Not everyone can do this or open up their units so please take this with a grain of salt and we recommend you reach out to your dealer or Lionel before doing anything.
**We are not recommending people attempt this, just showing people the video to shed some light on this.**

Below are some pictures/videos and steps to get the noise under control.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5lrfTrLz8Dk

1. There are 6-8 screws to take off the shell from the body.
2. there are 3-4 screws on the smoke unit top that attaches to the impeller and gasket that needs to be removed.
3. With a tweezer gingerly pull the black impeller out.  (if you are not careful you might break this so be careful.
4. Drop some light oil in the hole/male shaft
5. Close everything back up

Hopefully, this helps you or your dealer to better assist everyone.  It took us 5 minutes and only needed a screwdriver, foam matt, tweezers, and some light oil.

Thank you! I stumbled across this thread looking how to fix the noisy fan issue and this did it. Guess it's a common problem