Judging by both Bruk and Todd's tests, the 5.5 boards should work with basic TMCC sound capability with the Cruise Commander. I'm would assume that the 6.0 board would work the same way.
Thanks for the experiments. It sounds like a Legacy sound board can function with a TMCC R2(4)LC and have all the standard functions, just not Legacy specific stuff like the quilling whistle.
Bruk posted:Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.
Did you actually try this? The reason I ask is, I don't think the R4LC can get the quilling whistle when it's receiving 8 bit TMCC data. The Legacy command base being set for TMCC will only transmit 8-bit data for that locomotive, it's not going to switch to 9-bit data for the sound. I don't see how that would work, but I don't have a Legacy sound board handy to test it.
I would expect a CAB2 mixed control setting--TMCC for motor control and Legacy for Railsounds to work as Bruk described.
Interesting Rudy, I'll have to try it. 
I would have thought the Legacy RS board would have an issue with 8-bit data.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Interesting Rudy, I'll have to try it.
You can try this with one of your own legacy equipped engines. You can put it in TMCC mode and set the sounds to legacy, and put it in legacy mode, and set the sounds to tmcc.
Bruk posted:I had some time this morning and this is what I found in my tests.... using a ERR Cruise Commander and RailSounds 5.5 board from a ATSF E6 Atlantic.
- The ERR R4LC board that is included with the kit, does not put out a 9 bit serial data. Only 8 like John and GGG were saying.
- The Legacy R.S. Board in this case the 5.5 version did see the 8 bit and will operate in TMCC mode with no quilling whistle feature.
- I put a Lionel R4LC board a true 9 bit board from the E6 Atlantic on the ERR cruise commander. I did get lighting and coupler control but no motor control in LEGACY Control Mode. But I did get Legacy RailSound control (Quilling Whistle)
- Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.
- Have not tested this with the CAB1-L. I don't have one. I don't know if it is possible due to the basicness of the controller system.
Thanks for doing this. Still to be proven is if this will work equally well with an older R2LC. GGG indicated he had problems when he tried to do this. Still it opens new doors for anyone doing new TMCC installs with ERR stuff. We now have more options for Railsounds.
Pete
Enough speculation, I just did the tests.
Configuration is an R2LC-C08, generic RS power supply, 6-11207 Legacy Lionmaster RS6 board, and a TMCC motherboard. Motor drive is a standard Lionel DCDR running a can motor on my test bed.
Running in TMCC mode, a Legacy 6.0 board works fine as a TMCC board. Obviously, no quilling whistle, but everything else seems to work. I get all the sounds as I'd expect, and all the crew talk if you're into that sort of thing.
Running in TMCC mode and setting the sounds to Legacy, breaks some major things. Specifically, the whistle and bell no longer function at all. Crew talk, tower, chuff, work fine, just not whistle or bell. That doesn't seem to be a useful option. Obviously, they're expecting the 9-bit data that we spoke of. Most likely, the single hit bell and the quilling options necessitated the use of the 9-bit serial data. For the energetic, you can probably figure that out from the Legacy protocol specification, I'm not that energetic.
To wrap up the testing, I used a Legacy S02 R4LC in my test setup and repeated the tests. First off, the Legacy R4LC could not get motion at all, reprogramming, etc. no change. So, using the Legacy R4LC is a looser. However, obviously, the Legacy R4LC had no issue making the quilling whistle happen.
Bottom line? No quilling whistle for TMCC locomotives. However, as Pete says, it does open up the option to use early Legacy boards if they're available to expand your sound horizons.
I'm glad I brought this topic up, but even more happy to see it's answers brought by the help of others who were just as interested. 
The Vision Hudson board would do wonders for old Hudsons looking for new sounds, or the 4-4-2 Atlantic board. Yes, they're not cheap, but I honestly think it'll be worth it.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Thanks for the experiments. It sounds like a Legacy sound board can function with a TMCC R2(4)LC and have all the standard functions, just not Legacy specific stuff like the quilling whistle.
Bruk posted:Now, If you go into the #900 LEGACY Cab-2 Controller and set the engine to TMCC control and then set the Sounds to LEGACY. You will be able to control the motor function with the Lionel 9 bit R4LC and also be able to control the LEGACY Sound features such as the Quilling Whistle/Horn.
Did you actually try this? The reason I ask is, I don't think the R4LC can get the quilling whistle when it's receiving 8 bit TMCC data. The Legacy command base being set for TMCC will only transmit 8-bit data for that locomotive, it's not going to switch to 9-bit data for the sound. I don't see how that would work, but I don't have a Legacy sound board handy to test it.
I'm trying this now and when I enter the settings you mention. I get motor control but I can't use the horn or bell, all the other sounds do work however.
The Cruise Commander motor control may act differently than the stock Lionel DCDR, I didn't try a CC. However, since you don't get the Legacy only exclusive features for the sound in TMCC mode, it's somewhat of a moot point.
Unless there's a hole in my experiment, the hot ticket is just to use the Legacy sound boards in TMCC mode and have the expanded set of sounds available for these upgrades.
Bruk, Very interesting, I knew the TMCC versus Legacy Motor driver where not normally compatible with the opposite R2LC/R4LC. But the fact the CAB-2 system can let a R4LC talk in 8 bit to motor driver while 9 bit to RS is interesting.
Having said that, John stated he could not get it to work? So we now have on that doesn't work.
So you need to identify what code R4LC was used, and what motor driver type.
Again, it would not surprise me if certain combinations of R4LC/RS 5.5 +++/and DCDS have problems running. But maybe some combinations will work.
My engine did for 5 minutes, then it degraded over the next 3 minutes to all functional control was lost. Turn it off for 15 minutes and it would repeat, like clockwork. G
Okay, so I decided to be bite the hook and try out a RS6.0 board in one of the powered motherboards I had to see if it worked.
Unfortunately, it did not. At least this one didn't. Instead, it created a lot of heat and messed up the serial data for that motherboard for good. I had tested this MB with a RS5 board prior, and everything worked fine.
I'm definitely sending the 6.0 board back to Lionel to see what the issue is, because I find it difficult to believe a board would do that if it was correctly put together. Either that, or it's just $100+ down the tube...
That's interesting, because I took the RS 6.0 board out of my T1 Duplex and dropped it into my test TMCC MB, it worked like a champ using TMCC. I don't know of any difference between the power requirements of the RS5 and RS6 boards, perhaps Mike Reagan (Mikado) does, he's certainly had his hands on all this stuff. 
I figured so, too John. I guess the verdict is the 6.0 board itself was tainted, because I know a bad MB can affect a sound board, but I've not seen the reverse action happen. Hoping to get my motherboard fixed, too.
I'd like to hear the "definitive" answer on any differences, I expected the powered MB to work with any RS board from RS3 thru RS6. I've used an RS 5.5 one in the powered motherboard, but never the 6.0 one that has all the SMT stuff and no sockets.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I'd like to hear the "definitive" answer on any differences, I expected the powered MB to work with any RS board from RS3 thru RS6. I've used an RS 5.5 one in the powered motherboard, but never the 6.0 one that has all the SMT stuff and no sockets.
The RS6.0 PCB is not compatible with the Powered motherboard, I should know I designed the PCB. The design goal implemented for the powered motherboard was for RS5 (and 5.5); not RS4 and RS6 - and not a good idea to plug anything but 5.x in! The powered motherboard was designed for the aftermarket sales at ElectricRR; but came in handy for some limited deployments. Using it for any other application, your mileage may vary. I did not check out the application of the Powered Motherboard for other configurations, so feel free to experiment...
RS6 had a unique motherboard and was short lived as it had too much complexity with compatibility within the Legacy line, and time to program the flash was painful in production. The RS6 was intended for 3 Vision locomotives only, the CC2, the 2-10-10-2, and the Genset. We needed more Sound Storage than RS5.5 could support for the advanced features in those Vision products. As soon as we could, we migrated to RSL (BTW RSL means RailSounds Legacy, not RailSounds Lite!); so we could have a more controlled environment (power supply and offset detection on-board).
And the definitive answer we seek has been provided! Thanks Jon, I'm glad I didn't plug my 6.0 board into the powered motherboard, I would have been unhappy.
FWIW, it seems to work fine with the RS4 boards, interesting that it wasn't really intended to.
Well, this is incredibly disappointing. 
But at least it's something not to be repeated.
Still, going to wait to see what Lionel HQ says now...
Actually I've always been disappointed in how little information is provided to the users on many aspects of the electronics. The reasons, whatever, for that do not ever relieve the disappointment.
gunrunnerjohn posted:And the definitive answer we seek has been provided! Thanks Jon, I'm glad I didn't plug my 6.0 board into the powered motherboard, I would have been unhappy.
FWIW, it seems to work fine with the RS4 boards, interesting that it wasn't really intended to.
John,
It may electrically work, however as I mentioned it was not designed for RS4. One item to note is the Diesel RPM function is driven by a VCO in the PIC on the Powered Motherboard, each RS version, (RS4, RS5, RS6, RSL) has their own VCO frequency to Run Level. I can assure you that RS4 run table VCO frequencies are not compatible with the Powered Motherboard (it has the RS5 tables). Steamers should be OK, if you say it works electrically.
I have standardized many things over the past 10 years, and simplified many of the designs. Still many things are not designed in CA, but in China, and the designs drift. That is not all that bad, but you do see that the folks on this forum are looking to understand the variations, which is only natural. What is really interesting is that sometimes our Engineering or Customer Service does not even know what electronics are in the products designed in China! It is a trade-off for the limited resources we can have in the USA.
Thanks for this helpful info, Jon (even though it did come hours too late before my $100 mistake). At least I know the 5.5 Legacy boards should work for a typical upgrade setup I have, and will not be purchasing more of the 6.0 boards.
The GS4 4436 5.5 audio board might be good for conventional Daylights in need of TMCC.
Thank you again Jon. It appears its good to procrastinate. My RS6 Hudson RS board is plugged into a powered motherboard as I type. Still working on speaker placement so it hasn't been powered up yet. Non powered motherboard from this engine has been ordered thanks to the heads up.
Since all the electronics will be Legacy I won't be able to confirm if it will work with ERR stuff nor will I experiment. Sounds like Bruk has though.
Pete
Just to muddy the waters, and make a even more complex solution.....
I once ran into some of the issues mentioned above, and I resolved it by ----- Using 2 different Radio boards programmed to the same ID. You wouldn't want to pass this on to normal end user customers, since you need to have 2 program/run switches and have a good understanding of why.
One ran the motor controls, one ran the rail sounds. Not recommending it for the faint of heart. I don't recall about the VCO at the moment though. On the 2nd radio board had to solder to the back of the board pads the power/gnd/serial/etc. Since you don't have a motherboard to plug it into. Oh a separate Antenna wire is needed as well.
Keep in mind doing this your going to have to have 2 separate serial circuits. Don't mix them. In essence you end up with 2 different setups inside the same shell, both responding independently to the TMCC/Legacy signal.
Sorry if I added to the confusion.
Jim
SantaFeFan posted:John,
It may electrically work, however as I mentioned it was not designed for RS4. One item to note is the Diesel RPM function is driven by a VCO in the PIC on the Powered Motherboard, each RS version, (RS4, RS5, RS6, RSL) has their own VCO frequency to Run Level. I can assure you that RS4 run table VCO frequencies are not compatible with the Powered Motherboard (it has the RS5 tables). Steamers should be OK, if you say it works electrically.
I have standardized many things over the past 10 years, and simplified many of the designs. Still many things are not designed in CA, but in China, and the designs drift. That is not all that bad, but you do see that the folks on this forum are looking to understand the variations, which is only natural. What is really interesting is that sometimes our Engineering or Customer Service does not even know what electronics are in the products designed in China! It is a trade-off for the limited resources we can have in the USA.
As always Jon, thanks for the clear and lucid explanation of things Lionel.
I'm planning on using the powered motherboards in a couple of Station Sounds Diner retrofits, so they should work as intended I would imagine. I just use a magnet and reed switch to trigger motion effects. I will also keep any RS6 board far away from the powered MB. 
The many variations are sometimes a mystery, and as in this example, many of us learn the do's and don'ts by empirical methods of try and fry.
One curious question still remains.
I did install the RS6 board in a motherboard with a standard Modular power supply and R2LC, (the Station Sounds Diner MB), and it functioned as expected, no smoke. It still works fine in the Legacy T1 Duplex, so it appears it didn't suffer any grievous harm. What is different between the standard TMCC motherboards and the powered motherboard that would cook the RS6 board?
I told you so:-)!!!! But most learn by doing. By the way, good luck with a return from Lionel. G
