Let's talk brass train cars!

Sounds like a good crowd source exercise,

IMO it shouldn't be a list of what people own - but a list of what we know has been actually built.  Unless the list is for brass collectors,  why restrict it to just brass cars.  When assembling a freight car roster it's useful to know what's been previously commercially offered - regardless of material -  regardless of kit or built up. In response to Simon's point I've found if it's been offered commercially eventually it will show up on a meet table, estate sale, or eBay.  Knowing what's been produced helps me know what, where, and how to search for - it just may take awhile to find it.   I'd recommend against listing current pricing as in our very small market it's just too variable.  Original MSRP would be of historical interest.

Ed Rappe

A BRASS database alone would be a monumental task. The idea of a cooperative listing sounds nice in theory, but how do you ensure accuracy and keep the "gremlins" away. As far as dollar values, unless it is original list price, I see NO point in that because values will become irrelevant sooner or later. What is HOT today is many times NOT tomorrow. Knowing production numbers would be far more valuable, but where are you going to get them.......the Importer, obviously, but some are not so forthcoming as far as giving out information. Hate to be negative, but I just don't see it happening.

I just don't think you can circumvent the "experience" thing.

Simon

I didn't say that I have, or know of, a "credible inventory," only that if such an inventory could be produced, then it would be very useful.

There's a Kohs NCY Hudson on ebay for $11,995.  Probably overpriced and speculating.  But, even at a lower price, I don't get it.  I've seen Kohs pieces at shows etc and sorta checked them out.  But, I don't get it.  Help me understand why anyone would pay that kind of money.  No disrespect intended.  Pure, honest question.  Thanks in advance.

Just a guess but: 1) they want it, and 2) they have the money.

Asking price does not always equal "getting" price.  .  I have a few Kohs cars and Kohs, like Glacier Park Models and KEY Imports, are the current state of the art.

I don't own any Kohs or Key locomotives simply because they aren't made in P:48.  I would love to have two, tree, a pair of Kohs GG1's in P:48 but I suspect it would cost thousands to convert just one loco. 

Anyhoo, I'm in the process of setting up a "O scale brass list" in Yahoo Groups.  It would be nice to have like minded folks discussing the topics.   Ultimately it would be nice to have a standardized database with Manufacturer names, model numbers, approximate run dates and quantities as well as pictures and descriptions.   

Omitting even original selling price might be a good idea.

I agree with the statement:

Just a guess but: 1) they want it, and 2) they have the money.

That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex

does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction

of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc.

That would also be useful - no doubt about it.

Ya' think?

why restrict it to just brass cars.  When assembling a freight car roster it's useful to know what's been previously commercially offered - regardless of material -  regardless of kit or built up.

There have been over 200 different O scale freight car models tooled and produced in plastic since the 1990s.  When you add road names/paint schemes the numbers are well into the thousands.  For all road numbers multiply again.

For brass freight cars the number of different freight car designs might be higher but the total number of road names/paint schemes might not.

I tried starting a spreadsheet on one of the Anthracite Roads web sites of accurate O scale rolling stock.

One of the biggest problems is quantifying what constitutes "accurate".  To me the San Juan Car Company kits are dead-nutz accurate and my Pacific Limited Seaboard Air Line 1932 car scores only an 8 out of 10 since it has single layer etching that poorly represents the built-up nature of the actual car.

It would be great to chronicle what cars have been done over the years and come up with a scale to rate their accuracy in not only dimensional accuracy but fidelity to prototype and the accuracy of details. 

I know from my own efforts how difficult of a task it is to develop photographic evidence of every car I own as well as some semblance of fidelity to the numbers of the prototype, i.e. having lots and lots of H21s and X29's since they WERE the predominate box and hopper cars of my era/area.

Ultimately this would be a great thing, but for now I'd prefer to get away from the computer and start painting and lettering the fleet... and adding to it with accurate, common cars such as X25's and the like. 

Bumpety bump... Yoder ACL Cars are here!!!! Meeting Rich at 1 to pick them up! 

Rob,

please post images of the acl models!

Unfortunately I'm on the road but the cars are GORGEOUS!  Really nicely done and from first glance seem very accurate.

ANOTHER  winner from Rich!

ANOTHER  winner from Rich! 

Master Yoda has the knack.

B Smith,

"""That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex

does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction

of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc."""

Thanks for narrowing my reasons for owning a Brass model,  models,

Phill

So we are using a mythical inventory.

As my old Daddy always said about IF: If the old bullfrog had wings, he wouldn't have to drag his behind on the ground.

You are a bit too concerned with what has NOT been produced rather than what has.  I look at everything out there I can, and the more I look, the more I know about just exactly what IS out there, and if I stumble across "Plan B", well I'll buy it if I'm able, and I won't give a second thought to "Plan A" because it might be a ghost. Do I know it all? The answer: A resounding NO! But the more I know of what is there, the more likely I am to make an "informed" choice, and magical inventory or not, you can't buy what ain't there!

Simon

Simon -- I really don't know what you are going on about here. You seem to have 

deliberately misconstrued my point, which is no more complicated than suggesting

that it could be interesting and useful to have a comprehensive and well-documented list of models produced over the years in O-scale. 

What your daddy said about the bullfrog may be true, but there is no analogy to the

matter in question.

B Smith,

"""That's why someone buys a Rolex or Vacheron Constantine, even though a Timex

does the job. And why would someone want it? -- craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction

of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc."""

Phil: "Thanks for narrowing my reasons for owning a Brass model,  models,"

Brass Models is like art. Have you heard of the Book published years ago "The Art of Brass?" People by brass/art for the " craftsmanship, rarity, satisfaction

of ownership, evidence of ability to pay, etc. etc.""" Your analogy the the Timex is bogus. Timex is mass produced and readily available, Brass is not! Some people appreciate art, then there are others who have no taste. Stephen

For those that would like photos of the Yoder ACL cars, Why not visit his web page. They been up there for a while now.  Stephen

Mr. Smith,     I have NO real beef with any of the thoughts you express, and agree that an accurate, comprehensive  inventory would be a great and useful thing. That said, I don't see it becoming a reality anytime soon, thus my (hopefully humorous) take on the word "IF". I could be wrong, but it seems to me the longer one is around this "stuff" the less 'their' need is for a guide such as we are discussing. Actually, looking at sites like Evilbait and the various Brass sellers (or plastic if you like) sort of becomes a hobby unto itself, and the reward is, you become your own little guide through the experience of doing so. The Internet makes it easy because you don't have to 'schlep' around to shows to see stuff, but then going to shows is a reward unto itself and you learn even more and get to see stuff up close and personal. It's a journey of sorts, and half the fun is getting there. I hope you find your plan A and B and C (if there is one) and if that mythical guide ever does see the light of day, well I'll probably buy one!

Regards,

Simon

Stephen, I think what Mr. Smith is saying is that people who buy Rolex or Vacherons are buying art and people who buy Timex want something to tell them the time of day. When he states: "craftsmanship, rarity, satisfactionof ownership" I think he is referring to Rolex and Vacheron NOT Timex. The operative word should have been them rather than it.

Simon

the part i don't understand why its such a big deal about putting this together and why so many people are jammed up about there being this list. sure you can track the info down yourself and yes that can be a rewarding hobby in itself but. our 3 rail brothers have Greenberg books matchbox, doll, glass etc collectors all have collectors books available so if someone wants to undertake that and maybe make a buck selling this whats the big deal. i have a lot of brass cars and i'd love to see the list. heck even Bill Lenoir made a book of the locomotives he built and even sent me a list of the ones he didn't have in the book. i also have a list of all the Ken Henry locomotives which is very valuable trying to verify a real Henry locomotive.  was that a waste of their time????

I am not holding my breath on the freight car list, but it would be great if you posted the Lenoir and Henry lists.  I would love to see a photo of a good Ken Henry locomotive - was not impressed with those in the Baltimore museum.  I understand they are not representative.

Try to compile a list of Joe Fischer cars and same thing. Info and cooperation dries up faster than spit on a rock in Arizona.. Doesn't anyone share anymore??? How can I learn to emulate a master if those that also appreciate his work wont SHARE. All I ever Wanted was a standard set of car shots, sides, ends, roof, and underbody. maybe interiors if owner willing. no other information required unless owner willing to provide. I would buy a book of brass cars even if it included all the poorly made cars just to have one for reference. Set the website up like Wikipedia and it could be edited.

Those are his pilot models; he had them at the last Strasburg show.  The final cars have all of the minor changes that were made for production.  If I were home i'd post some detailed photos of my cars.

It's always bothersome when someone hides information like it was a multi-million dollar trade secret. 

Anyway, I do intend to work on an O scale brass list for (at first) freight cars with a standard set of views of the car along with some rudimentary data.   Makes the hobby more fun and ultimately that's what it is all about.

Just an idea. I had started a facebook acc. for  the retired friends from work as we get together for a morning feast once in a while and it is easy to post what is happening with all. What I did was a simple thing that collects little fruit as many old guys aren't computer there yet. Me neither.

What I propose is that we start a facebook page for O scale brass that we can post subjects( models made with photos and some history to the models, when,etc.) People just have to keep to the plan of no sillyness, angry talk, as it is just to get out what has been produced. I find adding pictures a lot easier there  than on the OGR site. 

Phill 

phill great idea i would be happy to post as i probably have close to 25 different pacific limited cars many psc overland  custom brass sunset hallmark ush and max gray. so count me in. awhile back i posted pac limited variations of the x23 prr box and work cars is that the type pics you are looking for or multiple of each  car?

bob2 i'd be happy to post the Lenoir and Henry lists but the are  244 of Lenoir's and 5 8.5x11 pages of Henry builds. i think the 3rail crowd would have a stroke if i posted that.

Re earlier comment on why anyone would pay a very high price for a Kohs car or locomotive?  The quest for the perfect model, in essence, a shrunken prototype. Having studied the Kohs UP Challenger at the last Chicago March Meet, it was absolutely beautiful, and truly captured the feeling of "heft" of the prototype. I would consider a Kohs purchase, if he did a locomotive I had interest in, but economics forces him to do locomotives that have been done over and over. Big Boys, UP Challengers, NYC Hudsons, even N&W A's have all been done, nearly unto death in O Scale!    Now a Rock Island 5100 or 5000.......that might be a different story!

Convert it to a pdf file and post it as an attachment?

I certainly should have written "them" in reference to the Rolex and the other brand. At first I just listed Rolex, then added Vacheron Constantine without remembering to change the pronoun, which led to ambiguity. I have a Rolex I've been wearing every day

for 30 years, and even though my cellphone gives me the time more accurately, I still

enjoy owning a well-made, rugged and dependable mechanical watch (it's also much

more water resistant than the cellphone). I'd say go ahead and collect those beautiful

brass models from Key and Kohs and others if you want to.

I tried to open a new FB account but it brings me back to my own so if anyone is interested in persueing this endeavor then go for it as I have no talents in this. But as soon as it is open I can then post some of my Brass, what little I own, and a brief history of my pieces, what I paid if I can remember back that far to help build a library of O scale brass for the community.

Phill

When did they start importing brass.  I understand some of the first brought over were

individual items made in Japan, as a custom item, for military staioned there after

WWII. So late '40's..early '50's?  If it was advertised....somebody has a library of all

the MR's, RMC's, etc., from that era to date (later probably just the "O" magazines),

that would have to be poured through for ads.  I can't believe much of it was only

sold by word of mouth.  It must be in print somewhere, and, unlike current tinplate,

I doubt of cancellations were common.  With the library, they will need patience.

This isn't like structure kit builders, who ginned out 50 kits, got tired of stuffing

boxes after running one ad,  and faded away. Importing, even then, was a bigger deal.

There is a fairly comprehensive book (paperback) on Bill Lenoir's stuff, and I think some of Ken Henry's Locos were detailed in one or more issues of the late great "O Scale News"

Simon

I have both of those - I thought he said he had unpublished info.  I don't have much interest in a list - photos are all I personally care about.

I'm pleased to have the variety of brass items on my railroad but I'd agree with Ed Rappe that I'm interested in the models no matter what they are made of.

I think a brass list would be an enormous task.

I'll be starting a Norfolk and Western 0 scale specific list thread in the next week or so that will include the prototype years of operation for specific items. It will be somewhat in the spirit of Ted Hikel's threads. I think I can make it manageable so the thread can be fluid with suggestions and input while adjusting and correcting it in the initial page of the thread under 5 or so categories. I don't plan to do it all at once but add to it over time.

It would be cool to have similar threads for other railroads. This way all of the work can be spread around to people who are knowledgeable in those railroads. It would be useful to know which items fit the year I model.

Another item that would be good to have on any brass (or plastic) list is the availability of decals or the accuracy of the RTR paint schemes. 

I just acquired an N&W H1 2 pocket hopper and have the task of finding suitable decals for the car.    Finding accurate decals (and sometimes trucks) is a chore. 

Having a database or thread to share info is a good thing.

this is when an Alps printer comes in handy.