Life Expectancy

The expect it to outlast the one-year warranty, after that you're on your own.

If the kids get their hands on it without adult supervision I would say less than 90 days. Especially, if they think they are Gomez Addams! 😁

I think hours of runtime may be more appropriate.  Toy grade toy trains I have found about 2-20 hours before something goes.   Hobby grade toy trains, 1000+ hours, if they are maintained and lubricated as recommended.    The brushes in the pullmor motors I would estimate at 300-500 hours.    Lionel trains were designed to be servicable.

I don't expect starter set engines or many modern engines to run as long as my postwar high-end engines.   

I have gotten a couple of postwar engines with high run times where the gears have started to jam/jump.    The gears were OK, it was the axle bearings that were worn oval.  These were pre-war 226 and a 225.     Estimate of 1000+ hours from the previous owners use description. .

I think the greatest killer of most O gauge is gravity.  Being dropped or falling off the train table.    Also a few speed and crash crazy users. 

I doubt much thought was ever given by the manufacturers to the potential life span of toy trains (FWIW I suspect GRJ's tongue in cheek response is probably close to the mark!). Toys are inherently disposable items, as likely to be outgrown as worn out, so I'd be real surprised if any research was ever done.

As a practical matter, postwar and earlier trains have proven to have indefinite lifetimes, with most parts replaceable even if not given regular maintenance. More modern trains are a bit more problematic, with proprietary circuit boards prone to failure and few if any reliable sources of replacements. ISTM manufacturers *still* look on toy trains, even the multi-thousand dollar new offerings, more as disposable items than as repairable and renewable objects. Just MHO . . .

I like toy trains because they are just that toys. I have a Lionel 259 that has lived a hard life of fun. You see it left the track many years ago and made it way to the sand box and dirt roads of the backyard. It played roughneck with the tonka trucks smashing and daredeviling into backyard adventures. It has now earned a position of honor among my most treasure possessions. I have cleaned and oil it to running order. If only the toys today could live such a life. I hope a grandchild of mine finds it and again takes it on to many more adventures.

sometimes half the fun with playing with toys is breaking them.

I would agree with the distinction between toy trains and "hobby grade" as mentioned above. Certainly the half-ounce bodies on an engine with a tiny DC motor would put that into the "Toy" category, and I wouldn't expect much out of it.

But what I'm thinking about are some of the 1940's, + a decade, drawings I've seen for the various mechanical parts - these are real design engineers doing real engineering work. And it's not uncommon to see a life expectancy associated with some of these items.

Again, has anyone ever seen this type of documentation from Lionel?

George

@Michael Roth posted:

sometimes half the fun with playing with toys is breaking them.

I had the opposite of fun when my 602 Seaboard bit the dust. Got it when I was 10, wore it out to where the gears were all cocked sideways and would no longer run when I was 13. I was heart broken. Tried to take it apart to fix it, but that only sealed its fate! That was the beginning of Lionel’s cheap period IMHO. Nine years later I resumed “training” with a used acquisition from Goodwill - happy, I was!
I guess it would be impossible to come up with a life expectancy for anything played with by a kid!!!

I ran my 1941 0-27 set (including a 1666 loco, realistic bakelite coal tender, and a pair of remote control switches) a lot during WWII. By wars end, the loco’s gear studs had loosened, and the gears would lock. A local Lionel Service Station repairman re-staked the gear stud, but damaged the winding inside the frame so that the motor lost 90% of its power. For all intents, the motor had become useless and I was left with a die cast boiler/cab, plus leading and trailing trucks.

Fortunately, a letter to Lionel got me a complete new motor unit with six drive wheels that runs like new to this day, seventy nine years later. 1946 cost of the new motor unit: a "whopping" $ 5.75 plus postage!

@GeoPeg posted:

I would agree with the distinction between toy trains and "hobby grade" as mentioned above. Certainly the half-ounce bodies on an engine with a tiny DC motor would put that into the "Toy" category, and I wouldn't expect much out of it.

But what I'm thinking about are some of the 1940's, + a decade, drawings I've seen for the various mechanical parts - these are real design engineers doing real engineering work. And it's not uncommon to see a life expectancy associated with some of these items.

Again, has anyone ever seen this type of documentation from Lionel?

George

I'd be truly stunned if any documentation shows up with MTBF numbers for parts or assemblies.  In order to do any meaningful MTBF calculations, it takes a lot more time than simply designing/picking the part.  For a toy, that just ain't happening!

George .........go out for a walk .......or for a train ride.....or just sit back and not have an adult beverage.

( When my CEO ( 💖 ) and I go outside for " BEERTHIRTY "  I start getting  " INSPIRATION " and find myself getting into a lot more things to do . 😨😁. )

It is interesting though to look at a purchase such as your locomotive and wonder about it's history and who's hands it has passed through . Then for you to get involved with some expert cleaning and lubricating it yourself .......all this sure can take a person away from some of the nonessential worrys that come our way.

Have fun with your project George. 

There is a great story concerning this subject and Mr. Marx.  IAW the story, for one of the New York Train Shows where all the manufacturers show their upcoming products, Mr. Marx gave the order to his engineering staff (Girard, Pa) that he wanted a train to run continuously for the entire show.  So it went, the train dutifully running for almost the entire show, finally near closing on Friday the loco stopped.  Mr. Marx, who did not like failing at anything, demanded that the engineer in charge come to his New York office to explain the failure.  The poor engineer stood before Mr. Marx and told him that..."the brushes wore out"!  Mr. Marx's (in the story) only comment to the hapless engineer...."Build better brushes!!".

To this day, like many of you, I have rarely encountered a Marx locomotive no matter how worn or dirty that would not run when put on the track.  Ugly, noisy, sometimes stop and go...but they always RUN!

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

There is a great story concerning this subject and Mr. Marx.  IAW the story, for one of the New York Train Shows where all the manufacturers show their upcoming products, Mr. Marx gave the order to his engineering staff (Girard, Pa) that he wanted a train to run continuously for the entire show.  So it went, the train dutifully running for almost the entire show, finally near closing on Friday the loco stopped.  Mr. Marx, who did not like failing at anything, demanded that the engineer in charge come to his New York office to explain the failure.  The poor engineer stood before Mr. Marx and told him that..."the brushes wore out"!  Mr. Marx's (in the story) only comment to the hapless engineer...."Build better brushes!!".

To this day, like many of you, I have rarely encountered a Marx locomotive no matter how worn or dirty that would not run when put on the track.  Ugly, noisy, sometimes stop and go...but they always RUN!

Don

I believe that story was referenced in a Greenburg book along with my other favorite Marx story. As I recall the Marx factory was equipped with train track set up to run locos under their own power from manufacturing to shipping. The idea being why waste the labor to have some one bring them when they could bring themselves.

@RamblerDon-anothet great story and so characteristic of Marx. Thanks for posting

Don

Wouldn't life expectancy depend on usage/mileage? The repair factor should also be considered; can these modern trains be repaired by the average person?

Like Indiana Jones said, "It's not the years honey, it's the mileage." At 59 I am feeling the mileage

You know the fact is that early trains even up to and including the 1950’s were simple having no electronics which few users can repair. Not because the designers didn’t like it but because they simply were not available. This makes them simpler to repair but also of course having fewer features.  It is really the same with your car. I did all my own maintenance and repair on my cars even up to those from the middle 6o’s. Today my car does many things my 1965 Ford didn’t do but there is no way I could repair many of those features.

Don

@Don McErlean posted:

It is really the same with your car. I did all my own maintenance and repair on my cars even up to those from the middle 6o’s. Today my car does many things my 1965 Ford didn’t do but there is no way I could repair many of those features.

You ain't kidding.  I can still repair the modern trains, but I've given up on cars!  After building motors in my apartment living room and rebuilding automatic transmissions in my youth, just looking under the hood of a modern car scares me!  What is all that stuff under there!

@gunrunnerjohn- you ain’t kidding!!  Just give me an opening like we have for gas for the needed fluids ( like water etc) and seal the hood shut!  
Don

Model train life is often snuffed out by "Zinc Pest' at any age.

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Model train life is often snuffed out by "Zinc Pest' at any age.

Charlie

Good point - I’ll bet that would mess with their MTBF numbers, assuming that any exist 🙂

George

Scary Modern Conveniences (?)

if the automobile  doesn’t have a carburetor I don’t want it!

if the loco speaks to you, I don’t want it.

if I need a sign on ID and a password  for every thing I  don’t want it either!

life expectancy with modern complications is shortened if you ask me.

@Leroof - Good to hear some of your common sense & wisdom. Hope all is well.

Tom

Greetings and salutations Tom! All is well. Hopeful for you as well. Nice to see you here! Thx for your comment.

as for wisdom? Some folks are wise…others are otherwise!

The Lionels I received for Christmas as a young child ("cheap MPC" to some) kept me and my brother engaged into young adulthood, and were only sidelined after two floods.  My 8361 diesel stayed on the rails even as the whole train board floated up to the basement ceiling and water covered the platform surface. Those trains were good enough to get me into the hobby, and keep me there for my whole life.  Of course I eventually expected more and wanted better.

Now approaching my 55th birthday, I'm more concerned with my own life expectancy than that of any train I buy.  I reckon if a loco lasts another 45 years or so, whatever happens after that will be somebody else's problem!  Good topic!!

I enjoy restoring rust covered Prewar junk. I Buy it as cheap as possible and try to give it a new start for another 100 years. I could think of no greater moment than a great grad child of mine playing with what I left behind. We have a long standing tradition in our family of passing down items from past generations. We have furniture, watches, tools, paintings, blankets, books and clothing from generations  back to the early 1800s. I hope some of my trains make the trip forward. If not I at least hopeful someone will continue to run them for Christmas in other families.

in my opinion the Prewar is where it’s at and it has lasted the test of time. Zincpest  is the only condition I have not fully figured out how to correct or prevent. However epoxy encapsulated is so far my only solution to preservation.

May my Tin out last my name.

everyone have a great day and enjoy midsummer days

@Ted S posted:

Now approaching my 55th birthday, I'm more concerned with my own life expectancy than that of any train I buy.  I reckon if a loco lasts another 45 years or so, whatever happens after that will be somebody else's problem!  Good topic!!

You may not be off the hook if cloning kicks in!

Tom

Hey how about these for "life expectancy":

Here is an American Flyer type # 3108 tank car, 94 years old today

And here is an American Flyer type #1119 stock car, 101 years old today.

These can obviously use some paint, but I prefer to keep them "unrestored" however both are complete and fully capable to running on a layout (indeed they have run on mine).  So I am sort of with @Michael Roth and really love the Pre-War cars.  I find it difficult to believe one of our new electronic wonders will still be around in 2125 and still working.  Not necessarily due to quality but due to the fact that they are so complex the reliability suffers and the maintainability becomes impossible over any significant time span.

Don

Brother Don I agree with you. Those cars are beautiful just the way they are. not rusted just patina.

They show their age but with gracefulness and define workmanship along with quality long lost.  What lucky young person once owned and now a lucky you have to cherish and admire. Thanks for sharing your photos

@Michael Roth -Michael thanks for the kind words and comments.  OBTW I loved your comment about retaining things from the past and handing them on to future generations, what a great tradition.

Best Wishes

Don

Trains are effectively immortal with proper maintenance and storage, as long as you avoid zinc pest.  This is a 1922 Flyer Illini consist, pulled by a 1930s Lionel 259E locomotive.  Engine was repainted but runs like new.

@cbq9911a posted:

Trains are effectively immortal with proper maintenance and storage, as long as you avoid zinc pest.  This is a 1922 Flyer Illini consist, pulled by a 1930s Lionel 259E locomotive.  Engine was repainted but runs like new.

Nice !

GREAT THREAD.  I'm 74 and still loving running my 1953 671 and its consist, and more recently acquired pre and post war stuff. New  very expensive stuff is neat (until it's electronics die and parts are NLA) . That's why sticker shock limits my purchases

I'm 64 and many of my prewar steam switchers are going on 85.

Glad they were made that well and hope I make it that long!

Tom

@PRR8976 posted:

I'm 64 and many of my prewar steam switchers are going on 85.

Glad they were made that well and hope I make it that long!

Tom

You'll know sooner than you think Tom.  Time sure goes by fast.

I still have the Lionel 681 I was given for Christmas 1949  before my second birthday.  It was run hard and put away wet as the saying goes. Crashing off the table, and plowing through a Lincoln Logs fort. It still runs well, although it has been repaired over the years and the shell looks like it was played with a lot (it was).

Many of these old trains were tougher than anyone could have expected.  

Many tend to "rust out" or "dry rot" more than "wear out".  I will hand off this engine and tender to my grandson. I expect it to outlast my more modern engines with electronic boards.

@Ted S posted:

Now approaching my 55th birthday, I'm more concerned with my own life expectancy than that of any train I buy.  I reckon if a loco lasts another 45 years or so, whatever happens after that will be somebody else's problem!  Good topic!!

This right here!

A different perspective may be that the Pre and Post War trains endure simply because they were manufactured using the available materials from that era.  Unlike todays current trains and going back to say the MPC time, the available materials back then were failrly bullet proof and would not wear down like current material.  I am certain the companies back in the 1940's and 50's were mindful of the cost of manufacturing as a primary driver (just as today). Fortunately those materials resisted wear. Today's manufactures have cheaper materials available that inherently cannot last as long as the early trains.

This forum is full of posts about plastic gears that wear out or modern bushings that cause  motors to lock up or the engine to wobble down the track. Also, the age of electronisc and their propensity for failures is a large concern for most of us. Pre-Modern Era you only needed a simple circuit breaker to keep things from burning up.

As Gunrunnerjohn mentioned above, the Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) is not a realistic comparison due to the difference between the materials used now. Unfrotunately, today I bet it is a much smaller Mean! Also, GRJ's comment  to make it past the warranty is spot on and what drives the manufactures' bottom line.

Sam

@PRR8976 posted:

I'm 64 and many of my prewar steam switchers are going on 85.

Glad they were made that well and hope I make it that long!

Tom

Dang good looking Loco !

Few Trains today are made for children most to all are for Adults with lots of money. The Target for children use has long passed. the 1970s were the last golden years for children's toys. you only have to look at the train cover now and you never see children playing with the trains. At a time you only saw children on the covers, than to was Sons and Dads and now its childless. When i attended a recent train show i inquired with many vendors about  what would be a great train for my nephew at 8 and all would say find a Thomas train set don't allow a child to touch any recent train. At 8 i would have given this train back as baby toy. at 8 i was out shooting and hunting with my grandpa. I selected my first hunting and fishing knife at 8. I was camping with the boy scouts  and riding my bike across town. The Toy Train industry has left most children behind and now they rebranded themselves as modelers. High Cost Trains, programs and sophisticated electronics way beyond the means of children.

Trains are not made for children they are made for young at hart adults.

"Grandpa my i touch" No! you may only watch these are not toys. Now watch as it goes by, their goes your collage fund!

Ho Ho Ho

40's and 50's trains have proved their Life Expectancy for 70 years.  And they are repairable by the average Joe and parts are still available and they are affordable.  Just convince yourself you do not need fancy sounds and remote controls to operate them.

Charlie