Lionchief Android App question

While you can run conventional, I would not recommend it. It's just not going to give you access to many features and it's not as smooth running since this is an engine designed for command with speed feedback control (AKA cruise) and that can be a little less smooth at lower speeds.

Let's cover a couple of things about Bluetooth and the app in general.

#1 Lionel used BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) based modules when building the electronics. BLE has a lesser range because it's less transmit power meant for nearby devices. This is what limits the range, not the app. I mean obviously each smart device has it's own Bluetooth chipset, antenna and other details that affect it's range, however, the hardware in the locomotive side is fixed and not changeable by you the owner. Again, range limit is a function of both the transmitter (you smart device or remote) and the engine receiving the signal.

#2 Yes, multiple versions of the app, both Android and Apple both had issues with updates as they changed and added features. The real problem- it simply did not work. You would open the app, it might pop up some kind of error message and then crash, or it would just crash or it could not use the bluetooth and could not connect. It was pretty much all or nothing. What you had to do on Android was go back, find an archived version of the app on some 3rd party website that happened to archive the previous installer version, and then manually remove the bad new version, and then manually install this older "working" version.

So, if the app isn't your cup of tea and I could completely understand why, then having an orange universal remote is the ideal backup plan. Now in saying that- again, keep in mind that on a really large track like ours at the club that the table is 75-80 feet long, you can find the range limits of the system (around 20 feet between you and the engine). But being a Lionchief 2.0, it also responds to TMCC and our club has Legacy.

I honestly like Lionchief 2.0 electronics because giant hint- they are now the same electronics used in a Legacy engine. You read that correctly, they are the same circuit boards. The difference is firmware changes and some (external) hardware changes. Example, Legacy engines use smoke unit with thermistor temperature sensors, where LC+2.0 uses non thermistor smoke units. So effectively, Lionchief Plus 2.0 guts is nearly a Legacy, just with slightly less features and then the details of the engine and hardware are different.

The truth is, I feel that Bluetooth has its place and yes, fine for testing or demonstrating an engine at close range. At a home layout which is typically less than 20 feet distance from a central point it could work fine for many people. Having it as an option to run is a good thing, but at some point, you may want more and that is where TMCC or Legacy control will come into the picture.

Conventional control is really, honestly, a last resort when you have nothing else.

I have had excellent results and no problems using the Universal Remote to run LC+2.0 with Bluetooth, and the dedicated remote to run prior LC+ locomotives, since 2018.

I rarely use my Android smart phone (Samsung Galaxy Note 8) to run LC+2.0 and LC+ with Bluetooth, but when I have, it's usually OK. I think I may have had an occasional connectivity problem when using my smartphone.

My layout is an around the walls layout that's 40 feet long and 3 to 4 feet wide.

One major reason I prefer to use the remotes is that I like to make videos with my smartphone while running my trains.

Arnold

IMO, Vernon's above reply is outstanding, very informative, and consistent with mine. I love the Universal Remote for running recent LC+2.0 and Legacy, and dedicated remotes for running prior LC+.

Also, I'm usually within 20 feet of the locomotive I'm running because I'm typically near the middle of my 40 foot long layout while using the remotes.

Arnold

My recollection is that Lionel has upgraded their Bluetooth to a newer version (maybe v. 5.0) with their recent products, so I would definitely give BT a try before spending money on a Universal Remote.

@Richie C. posted:

My recollection is that Lionel has upgraded their Bluetooth to a newer version (maybe v. 5.0) with their recent products, so I would definitely give BT a try before spending money on a Universal Remote.

Yes, in Lionchief 5.0 products that have the voice streaming feature.

That's how you know- if it doesn't have voice streaming- it's not 5.0.

Also, not to be confused with Voice Control. Totally different functions hence why voice control even works on 4.0 BLE based boards. Voice control is mostly the application listening for your voice and then simply linking that to an equivalent press of a virtual button. It's got nothing to do with the engine other than the engine getting a normal expected Lionchief command.

@wlee posted:

Does anyone know if the latest version of the app (2.6.30) resolves these problems?

Again, to answer this question as best I can. No, version doesn't mean a thing. The "why" behind that answer is the OS on your phone or tablet, its radio chipset, any other settings or security limitations all interact with the app. So again, this version might work perfectly on 90 different devices, and then when you install that version on your device, it breaks. I wish it was not so, I wish it was clearer and more defined, I wish it just worked. This is the fundamental problem of using an app on personal devices. How can they plan and ensure it works on every brand, every model, every OS?

About Bluetooth hardware used in the current release of Lionchief Plus 2.0 based engines.

LCP2 board example. BLE right on the radio module name.

Same style LCP2 board in a ET44 Diesel, uses the same radio modules. Picture was comparing the construction of the Lionchief ET44 VS LC+2.0 version.

Also, if we want to jump off knee deep in what makes the app so problematic- it's the features. When an app has to get permission to interact with Blueooth and external devices- that's one security hurdle. Then when the app needs access to your microphone for voice control- even if that engine is not capable, the application first tries to gain access on your smart device. Since this is a privacy concern for any app that "listens"- another hurdle. Then you take different phones, different OS images, different ways of handling security settings, and you quickly see how what you might think should be a simple app- but with the features they added suddenly becomes a nightmare of compatibility on different 3rd party devices. That's why one version works, or going back to a really old version before they added voice control that then had to access the microphone.

I think what we are trying to say is that anyone can have an issue with downloading an app and getting it to function properly on their particular device, but that is an app installation problem and not generally what you would call a BT issue.

Once the app is up and running properly on your device, issues with intermittent control, distance and out-of-range issues, loss of control, etc. are generally due to the particular version of BT that is being used and not the app.

BT version 5.0 on Lionel's newer engines helps to solve those issues because they claim it provides faster data transfer, increased range and operational distance versus the older BT version. So, if your engine comes with 5.0, once you get the app up and running, you should be good to go.

Sorry, again further clarification on version and being compatible.

Here's the real problem. If you just go to the app store, then all you will ever see is the latest version. That could change at any time, day or night what version is posted. You don't get a choice of saying no, I want version X. Since they added these features of Voice control is really about the same time these problems with compatibility really began to come to light. So since that was some time ago, even minor versions of the app, say 2.5.x, well what was the crossing line in the sand  before voice control was implemented? Again, you asked about (2.6.30) but going onto what device? Even then I could not guarantee that version and your device work. Sadly, I do not remember or know the versions prior to voice control being added and then further, can they still be found?

What I'm saying is, you have no choice (when using the normal app store process) of what version installs. I mean sure, it tells you the number but other than being a number, that's not like you can make a decision on that number as a criteria.

The flipside is, you then hope, pray, that somehow, somewhere, the vast internet captured that old installer version, and you can find it, and then, even if you find it, manual install process of an app downloaded from some random source you found on the internet??

And that's all depending on a really technical user to bypass normal app install using the store and knowing how and where to download, how to install manually, and so forth.

Remember, this is the Future of controlling trains- the almighty app and 3rd party devices of which they have no control over.

@Richie C. posted:

I think what we are trying to say is that anyone can have an issue with downloading an app and getting it to function properly on their particular device, but that is an app installation problem and not generally what you would call a BT issue.

Once the app is up and running properly on your device, issues with intermittent control, distance and out-of-range issues, loss of control, etc. are generally due to the particular version of BT that is being used and not the app.

BT version 5.0 on Lionel's newer engines helps to solve those issues because they claim it provides faster data transfer, increased range and operational distance versus the older BT version. So, if your engine comes with 5.0, once you get the app up and running, you should be good to go.

Very good summary!!!

My experience with a number of app based control systems is extensive and in most cases, overall performance was flawless. This included bluetooth, wi-fi and RF based systems. Lionel initially chose a limited range bluetooth version and has since gone to the longer range version in the latest products. The choice of handheld remote versus app is one of operator comfort as both accomplish the same result. I did find that Android based apps were a bit more difficult to deal with than IOS apps, but not a deal breaker.

Thanks everyone for your detailed responses. Just got word the new loco was delivered today, so I'll know soon how well the app controls it.

This loco does not have the voice streaming feature, so based on the above comments it doesn't have BT 5.0.  But that said, after a few fits and starts and re-reading the manual a few times, My Pixel Android 12 phone and the 2.6.30 version of the app worked reasonably well.  My room and layout size are not large enough to be impacted by the limited BT range, and there were a few times where after stopping the loco, I could not start it again (got the blinking cab light), but found that powering the loco off and on again (rebooting :-) ) and reconnecting usually resolved it.  I'm pleased overall with the result, given my very low expectations based on reading the terrible app reviews on the Google Play Store.  And Vernon was right, conventional control was not as smooth.  The speed control, rail sounds, voice control, the ability to work the couplers at any point on the track, all made for a lot of fun operating it.  Thanks again to everyone who responded.