Lionchief/lionchief+

The idea behind Lion chief and plus is a less expensive alternative and simpler than a full blown Legacy system.  Some people don’t want to step up to the high end and price of Legacy so Lion chief and plus is a better option.  Strarter sets with remotes are good for the kids to run trains with sounds and control which will hopefully lead to a lifetime hobby as it has for most of us. 

Agree with Chris. These sets offer a more attractive price point if you don't need all the Legacy features and they offer independent control where you don't have to flip through engines in your CabII. They are much more friendly for little kids to use compared to the 20 button cabII Remote.

Great points, RT. I don't know why Lionel decided to branch out with different operating systems either. I guess they are trying to make it "kid friendly" and less intimidating than learning Legacy, especially for hobby new comers.  I only have the LionChief Polar Express set, which I run independently from my layout. I could run it at the same time with my TMCC/Legacy locomotives since it's operating at different frequencies, but I agree, that shouldn't be the point. As much as Proto Sound can be, at least to me, temperamental and frustrating at times, at least MTH uses the same system in Rail King and Premier.

Rob

I had a chance earlier this year to "play" with some LC+ (in American Flyer.) 

I was a skeptic.  However, I found the LC+ intuitive, easy to use and frankly, fun.  It's as close to two wires from track to transformer/power pack control as you can get and you get the advantages of wireless remote, sound and (limited) multiple train control without the complications of TMCC/Legacy, DCS or DCC.

Granted, LC/LC+ has drawbacks, but there are folks out in the model railroad world who just want to run trains and not worry about having to go through all the rigmarole of the advance systems.

As to the set issue, a Legacy packaged set would be expensive, pure and simple.  I doubt it would attract many new customers. I realize MTH sells full-featured DCS locomotives with a "Lite" method of control, but whether MTH outsells Lionel starter set or not is a different discussion.

As for LC vs LC+ in sets, my suspicion is by not having the conventional option in the sets, it removes the "complication" of the conventional/LC switch being in the wrong position for the customer.

Rusty

The Lion Chief and Lion Chief Plus systems are really a smart idea from Lionel.  They have created a fantastic starter system.  

They are so much nicer than the old conventional ready to run sets they had for years.  The remote is 100% intuitive, you don't even need to read the instructions.  For the ready to run sets, you simply plug in the wall pack and put the train on the track and its ready.  It Auto connects when you turn on the remote and you go.   And now all Lion Chief and Lion Chief plus sets can be controlled by the free LionChief app (which works perfect, on Apple iOS at least).  So you don't even need the remote.

I am a long time Legacy only user and recently purchased 3 Lion Chief sets.  (Mystery Machine, Hogwarts Express and Polar Express) and honestly I am really impressed for what you get for the price.  These are all Lion Chief sets.  Lion Chief Plus takes it up a notch, with fan driven smoke, electrocouplers, and better detail.  

For people who don't have thousands of dollars to spend and want more modern trains with remote control, an extremely simple user interface and some features like sounds and smoke, these are perfect.  I hope they keep expanding the Lion Chief Plus line.  

Don't count these out until you actually have a chance to play with one.  You will be impressed.

For me, the best things about LionChief Plus are that my 6 year old granddaughter loves it, I also appreciate its features and that it is so user friendly, and it is relatively affordable compared to the other modern O Gauge trains. Arnold 

We often have them at the Glancy exhibit layout. The kids love em and even the youngest can operate the controller. Not everyone's cup of tea? Perhaps not but they do have a spot in the marketplace.

I love the scale engines by MTH, Lionel and others but today I want simple and my choice of engines are MTH railking and railking scale and some earlier TMCC. Legacy is a great system but I today my financial position will not allow me to buy the scale engines I like.

A couple of years ago Lionchief+ entered the market, I was not impressed and said so on these types of posts. But fast forward to today, I saw the new Berkshire and really liked it but was still unsure. After some time I did order one from C.Ro and hoped for the best. Well to say the least I was very surprised, it looked great and runs just as well. The Lionchief+ system is about as simple to use as running conventional. I also loaded the app to both my iPad (iOS) and my phone ( android ) and they both work well plus the apps are FREE. Lionel has done a great job developing Lionchief+. My Berkshire has not left the rails since I got it, the sound, control and it is just plain fun to operate. 

Dave

"So what is the advantage of this system other than Lionel creating another complete system and doing away with what we basically had."

One thing has not been mentioned, unless I've missed it.  LionChief/LionChief+ use 2.4 GHz spread spectrum radio control or Bluetooth.  Both are rock solid communications protocols compared with TMCC/Legacy, and in particular the rather quirky DCS, which are older, less reliable communication protocols.  No problems with tracks running near each other, no "no train" messages. Among other things, they are unaffected by dirty track, the bane of some operators of the older systems.

In addition to being more reliable/less quirky, LC/LC+ with Bluetooth are, as has been mentioned,  substantially less expensive than Legacy offerings. This is particularly important to new hobbyists and gift givers, since most people just want something for around the Christmas tree and similar uses.   Lionel's sets have always been dominant in the marketplace, no doubt simply due to brand recognition.  But they are clearly more affordable in being $100-200 less expensive than the other sets on the market. 

Finally, as noted, they co-exist completely peacefully and compatibly with conventional and all command type layouts.  Well perhaps not DCC, but that's rarely used in three rail.   The consumer receives an extra remote with every locomotive,  which can be a lovely advantage when you have children, family, friends and neighbors over to operate on your layout.  Everyone gets their own remote with no communications interference possible. And no frustration with quirky operating characteristics.   Other than theoretical arguments and preferences for a single remote, there is nothing to fear or dislike.

In a word. Simplicity.  I have two regular Lionchief RTR sets running on two loops in limited space in the living room. As a kid ran American Flyers with a transformer. One advantage of Lionchief is constant voltage, so when you stop the train, the lights on the cars do not go out. Not sure this is an advantage but can run the trains from two rooms away, the controller has good range. Price point for RTR sets is very good. For me it is all about interaction with the grand kids when they are at a young age, love it. Now all Lionel has to do is come out with a Lionchief  Ge Evolution with charging lights, and I will be a real happy camper.  

Oldmike

I like it the LionChief+, great starter system and one word simplicity.  Very easy to use and if you look every so often can get them very cheap.  I run them on my Legacy layout and have no problems.  Can pull good loads at very slow speeds.  The only thing I don't like is the announcers between the cab and yardmaster sound like Alvin and the Chipmonks.

I don't care about scale either to be honest, What I was saying when I said an inexpensive legacy set, I was meaning like basically your getting today in the Lionchief set but with legacy. 

As David said I'm not interested in scale ( which to me also mean all the fine detail. ) Wasn't that long ago I bought a Lionel NYC freight set with Legacy ( it was semi scale ) and it was like $600. Which to me is still a lot of money but it was worth it. It came with O-42 curves and 6 straights and a CW-80 Transformer. Okay it's been about 5 or 6 years so with inflation probably wouldn't be $700 but lets say that. 

I appreciate all the comments and there all valid points, and in todays world a child is not going to be happy running anything by the transformer like most of us where when we were kids. So it's great for them. And if you want something for around the Christmas tree I can see it also. But I also see where they started a little better than $150 I believe there in the $200 - $300 range already. I also realize it takes the base from another item to hook the transformer to just the controller and the engine. I guess to me if they had it where you could program say 5 or more engines it might be more appealing, and one person did make a comment I didn't think about so that might intise (sp) me if I saw something I liked, and that is I can run it on the same track as my TMCC/Legacy with out interfering with that or that interfering with the Lionchief. 

Again thanks for all the great comments. It did help me understand it a little better

Didn't Lionel release some Lionchief + scale locos? I haven't heard much about them.

Ken

Lionel has catalogued and perhaps released a scale SD60 with LC+/Bluetooth if I recall correctly. About $100 less MSRP than Legacy versions.

MSRP is one thing, but at times, just like in the 1950s after New Year's Day, stuff is available at terrific discounts.  I've bought LC sets as low as $60-100 as gifts or donations, including Thomas at times.  Ollie's had the least expensive Lionel sets for about $60 last year.  Even at routine discount prices, Thomas has been available for around $150 or so recently. 

Thus for a first train set for a young child, LC cannot be beat in terms of value.  Admittedly not the same quality as an MTH, Atlas or Williams set for $400, but none of these sets is going to survive a 4 year old's activities for many years .  With the LionChief set, everything you need is in the box, whereas the MTH set requires that you devote a smart phone or tablet to the tender loving care of that 4 year old. 

On balance, you can buy a set, some rolling stock and extra track along with the cheapest LC set for the price of an MTH, Atlas or Williams set.  The MTH, Atlas or Williams  set may be a better choice if you are an adult hobbyist and want only DCS, TMCC or conventional for your future layout.

kanawha posted:

Didn't Lionel release some Lionchief + scale locos? I haven't heard much about them.

Ken

Yes they did, two Sd60's I believe

Dave

Lion Chief and Plus don’t require an expensive operating system and you can also run it via Bluetooth.   It’s a great product.  

Grampstrains posted:

Not all of us want scale trains or Legacy remotes.  I, for one, prefer traditional sized trains and Lionchief plus is perfect for me.  It's the size I like with a simple operating system.  Lionel has a lot of different customers and we all want something different from  them. Lionchief Plus keeps me buying from them.

I am in the same camp with Gramps. I also prefer semi-scale traditional sized trains. I have no desire to buy a Legacy system. Legacy locomotives are all scale size and very expensive. I can afford them buy have no interest in them.

I have a DCS system and Railking locomotives. They are fun and have sophisticated sounds compared to LC+ but I fun that I much prefer to run LC+. The remote is simple to use, there are no operating problems, and the sounds are the only ones I am really interested in.

I can understand that if you are into 3 rail scale LC+ probably wouldn't appeal to you, but keep in mind that we all pursue this hobby in our own way. LC+ is successful because it fits the needs of so many. LC+ engines and LC sets are not built to order because they sell.

Landsteiner posted:

"So what is the advantage of this system other than Lionel creating another complete system and doing away with what we basically had."

One thing has not been mentioned, unless I've missed it.  LionChief/LionChief+ use 2.4 GHz spread spectrum radio control or Bluetooth.  Both are rock solid communications protocols compared with TMCC/Legacy, and in particular the rather quirky DCS, which are older, less reliable communication protocols.  No problems with tracks running near each other, no "no train" messages. Among other things, they are unaffected by dirty track, the bane of some operators of the older systems.

In addition to being more reliable/less quirky, LC/LC+ with Bluetooth are, as has been mentioned,  substantially less expensive than Legacy offerings. This is particularly important to new hobbyists and gift givers, since most people just want something for around the Christmas tree and similar uses.   Lionel's sets have always been dominant in the marketplace, no doubt simply due to brand recognition.  But they are clearly more affordable in being $100-200 less expensive than the other sets on the market. 

Finally, as noted, they co-exist completely peacefully and compatibly with conventional and all command type layouts.  Well perhaps not DCC, but that's rarely used in three rail.   The consumer receives an extra remote with every locomotive,  which can be a lovely advantage when you have children, family, friends and neighbors over to operate on your layout.  Everyone gets their own remote with no communications interference possible. And no frustration with quirky operating characteristics.   Other than theoretical arguments and preferences for a single remote, there is nothing to fear or dislike.

I fully agree with Landsteiner, plus one can use the LionChief Universal Remote to simultaneously run 3 Trains using one remote unit. I have the Universal Remote, but haven't used it yet because I am perfectly content running one train at a time using that train's remote unit.

I think all the debate coming from us Lionchief skeptics comes from comparing these sets to the MTH starter sets.  My question has always been why they didn't just make a simple remote that is compatable with the tmcc/legacy architecture like the mth sets/DCS.

This comes from my experience when Santa brought me a DC Lionel set for Christmas. Once he brought me an AC engine for Christmas the next year I had to use two separate transformers to use both my engines.  What happens to the Lionchief trains once folks start expanding their collections?

A few of you mentioned running them on your legacy layouts with no issues. Are you saying they operate at the same fixed voltage, but just use the Lionchief remote?  If that's the case then I missed that tid bit.

david1 posted:

kanawha posted:

Didn't Lionel release some Lionchief + scale locos? I haven't heard much about them.

Ken

Yes they did, two Sd60's I believe

Dave

Yes, it's in the 2017 Signature Edition catalog, pages 20-21.  SD60M.  The $499 MSRP was too high for my tastes for LC+.  I would love to see more scale stuff in LC+ though at today's prices (which are a little lower).

OliverCliffs posted:

I think all the debate coming from us Lionchief skeptics comes from comparing these sets to the MTH starter sets.  My question has always been why they didn't just make a simple remote that is compatable with the tmcc/legacy architecture like the mth sets/DCS.

 

I've used the DCS Explorer and LC/LC+ extensively.  I'd take LC/LC+ anyday.  The Explorer is a pain.  The LionChief remote is fantastic.

I forgot to mention that I prefer that each loco has it's own remote. I usually run 3 trains at a time and switching from one loco to another using DCS is not convenient. DCS toggles between two locos but finding the third is cumbersome.  I run my LC+ engines much more than my Railking engines. They are simpler to control, there is no delay as the signal travels through the track to the loco, and they are just more fun to run. DCS is good but LC+ is better, at least for me. I hope this helps you to understand why many of us love LC and/or LC+.

I should add that I am a conventional operator.  I do have a tmcc system, but  my loco fleet is a mix of conventional, tmcc, and legacy.  My layout has never been big enough to really make command control a necessity for me.  I think the fact that Lionchief (regular) doesn't work on conventional also is a detractor for me.

OliverCliffs posted:

I think all the debate coming from us Lionchief skeptics comes from comparing these sets to the MTH starter sets.  My question has always been why they didn't just make a simple remote that is compatable with the tmcc/legacy architecture like the mth sets/DCS.

A few of you mentioned running them on your legacy layouts with no issues. Are you saying they operate at the same fixed voltage, but just use the Lionchief remote?  If that's the case then I missed that tid bit.

Yes for LionChief Plus. I don't know regular LionChief.

"Yes for LionChief Plus. I don't know regular LionChief."

" I think the fact that Lionchief (regular) doesn't work on conventional also is a detractor for me."

LionChief and LC+ will work on as little as 6-8 volts on the track, so you can use them on any command layout (TMCC/Legacy, DCS) and you can also use them on a conventional layout.  On a conventional layout the LionChief locos work fine as long as there is some voltage on the track.  You do have to use the remote rather than the transformer to control the LionChief Loco.  So there is no incompatibility with conventional as suggested above.  But you do have to use the remote as there is no switch that converts the LionChief loco to conventional mode.  

The simple way to think of this is that LionChief and LC+ locos are command control with their own remote and no need for a command base, TIU, etc.  They work on all layouts in three rail.  On a conventional layout, they will all stop (as will the conventional locos) when the voltage is reduced to zero, and their speed at voltages above about 6-8 volts will be controlled by the remote that comes with the loco.  No incompatibility at all really.

Landsteiner posted:

The simple way to think of this is that LionChief and LC+ locos are command control with their own remote and no need for a command base, TIU, etc.  They work on all layouts in three rail.  On a conventional layout, they will all stop (as will the conventional locos) when the voltage is reduced to zero, and their speed at voltages above about 6-8 volts will be controlled by the remote that comes with the loco.  No incompatibility at all really.

That's a really clear explanation and really makes the whole system make way more sense. Thank you! So rather than being restrictive it really allows a lot of flexibility.

I had to come back and reply again... because my mind is a little blown..... so what you're saying is that for the past few years Lionel has been selling the future of model railroading cleverly disguised as starter sets!  I think I may hold off a little longer on upgrading those conventional engines!

Well, you've got your answers.

I'll just add that as a Postwar, conventional operator who has zero interest in more expensive locos and control systems Lionchief+ fits the bill for me.

Great looking trains that can be run conventionally or with the supplied remote. And now with Bluetooth.

Here is a Lionel video. Lionchief/conventional .oldmike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOEdqs7irM

I have been running conventional only until my recent purchase of a Lionchief Plus GP-7.  I have a layout filled with operating accessories and the slow speed that LC+ affords me makes spotting cars next to accessories a pinch.  The GP-7 also has Bluetooth which has some extra features over and above the LC+ remote.  I must say I am very happy with the purchase.  So much so that I ordered a Pennsy A5 switcher, also with bluetooth.

Bottom line is the LC+ system takes the fear out of stepping into a new operating realm.  Especially for old farts like myself.

OliverCliffs posted:

I had to come back and reply again... because my mind is a little blown..... so what you're saying is that for the past few years Lionel has been selling the future of model railroading cleverly disguised as starter sets!  I think I may hold off a little longer on upgrading those conventional engines!

Nothing is for everybody.

Maybe you crave complexity when it comes to technology and other things. I'm sure that complexity can be very interesting and is a good thing for many people. 

However, for some of us, less is more.

I hate technology that is too complex. It makes me anxious. User friendly is where it at for me (a 67 year old collaborative divorce lawyer and mediator), and my 6 year old granddaughter. Maybe she will prefer more complexity when she gets older. User friendly enables me to relax, which is what I need.  I want to relax and have fun when indulging in this wonderful hobby.

I love beautiful simplicity.  In my opinion, there is not only beauty, but also genius in beautiful simplicity, like the Rogers and Hammerstein song "Oh What a Beautiful Morning." Arnold

If I sold 100 remotes, 50 legacy remotes and 50 engines with lioncheif remotes, guess which ones constantly get worked on? The lioncheif remotes almost never have issues and the legacy remotes always go back to lionel. All I can say is if you go to York in orange hall, and see all the kids flocked to the awesome layout that lcca put up. The nice gentlemen running the lcca layout handed kids the lioncheif remotes and absolutely loved it. Its neat for layouts with multiple operating trains. You buy the engine and dont have to buy all the extra crap. Also these lioncheif engines are great for postwar guys cause of size etc. I think their great.

Perfect timing. I just videotaped LC+ multiple train operation, NH smoking FAs and Erie Camelback smoking steamer:

"What are they doing in the Hyacinth house to please the LIONS, there, this day."

Jim Morrison

Actually a little clarification.  For people that still want to run conventional, you do NOT need to use the remote on Lion Chief PLUS engines.

That is one of the features of the Plus engines.  They can be controlled conventionally by a transformer.  There is a switch to switch back and forth.   So you can run it conventional one day and use the remote or app another day if you want by a flip of a switch.

LionChief only locos have to use their remote or the app.

Either will work on a Legacy layout with Legacy engines and Lion Chief/Lion Chief Plus running at same time.

I don't think I was clear in the last post. If Lionchief is command control that only requires you to plop your train down on a powered piece of track it has huge potential. With Bluetooth technology why couldn't it or a system like it be used on higher end equipment with a device or a more capable remote to do all the things Legacy/tmcc/DCS can do.  If this type of control were to take off people will be posting the reverse : "Why do people use a system requires a seperate comand base and TIUs etc etc etc..".(i admitetedly don't really know what goes into a fiull command set up anymore).

I've kind of reversed course on this today! I guess thats what happens when folks poke their nose into something that they're not really ...weren't .... really in the market for!  If it really is that flexible I would totally be interested in upgrading my conventional stuff to this should it become available down the road.

I have mainly Postwar, MTH and 3 LC+ engines. I use classic Postwar 0 Gauge tubular track and 022 switches. I never thought of an upgrade when I got the LC+ this past year. I run conventionally, mainly from an MTH Z 4000 transformer, and the only trains I run using a remote unit with track voltage fixed at 17 volts is LC+. All I have runs fine. 

Without offending some people, I think those who went with the Legacy or other systems I know not too much about, other than that they seem to be more complicated than the LC+ system, may be feeling they are being left behind by Lionel.  Eric Segal, in his review of the LC+ SD60M, even said, that he hopes Lionel isn't going to drop the Legacy system.

https://youtu.be/LFBENGXY1sA

I gave my two sets of grandchildren- three ranging from 1-1/2 years old to 9, the Pennsylvania Flyer LC Sets.   Christmas 2016, my son set it up around the tree in 5 minutes, and his girls (then 6 and 9 yrs.) loved the set.  Since, my son has purchased a Polar Express set  additional track, and this year assorted buildings from Menards.  

After seeing this starter set run, I took up O Gauge trains, starting with LC+ locos, and (68 years old and a past HO hobbyist) now have a  permanent, 16 X 20' model railroad using Fastrack, in the basement.  

Last Christmas we gave my other son's boy- 1-1/2 years old- another Pennsy Flyer set, and he could run it using the remote- first only at full speed backwards- but now a year later he runs it at prototypical speeds, ("Papa's trains run slow") and uses all the features, still around the tree.

So- the LionChief Starter Sets resulted in three new customers, just in our family- (me) a serious hobbyist spending a LOT, one having fun with his two girls, and maybe becoming a semi-serious train guy eventually, and one a 2-1/2 year old- but MAYBE another hobbyist.

Sounds like good product line to me, and a winner for our hobby.