LionChief Plus 2.0 Hudson suddenly shorts out grandson's layout

I assume that the problem is happening at various places around the layout, not just curves and switches, etc.  If the speed is so slow that it's just above stalling, the motor may be drawing a lot of current, especially if you're also pulling a train.  What kind of power supply are you using?  This is a heavy, feature-laden loco.  So you definitely need something more powerful than a train set CW-80 or the "plug and play" LionChief wall wart.  My $.02.

@Ted S posted:

I assume that the problem is happening at various places around the layout, not just curves and switches, etc.  If the speed is so slow that it's just above stalling, the motor may be drawing a lot of current, especially if you're also pulling a train.  What kind of power supply are you using?  This is a heavy, feature-laden loco.  So you definitely need something more powerful than a train set CW-80 or the "plug and play" LionChief wall wart.  My $.02.

An MTH Z-1000.

It occurs with or without any cars behind it at crawl speed occasionally.   Maybe more often on a curve.

John

Check your pick up rollers to be sure they are straight and not slightly cocked. I had a similar symptom and it turned out to be intermittent contact with the ground rail and the pick up. It happened at slow speed since that gave the ground time to do its thing. At faster speed, it did not have time to trip the breaker.

Watch the headlight and look for a flicker when going faster  for added clues on where and how it is happening.

@hokie71 posted:

Check your pick up rollers to be sure they are straight and not slightly cocked. I had a similar symptom and it turned out to be intermittent contact with the ground rail and the pick up. It happened at slow speed since that gave the ground time to do its thing. At faster speed, it did not have time to trip the breaker.

Watch the headlight and look for a flicker when going faster  for added clues on where and how it is happening.

Thanks for the tips.

I'll check that today.

John

John, is the Z1000 internal breaker tripping or is an external breaker tripping.  If external, what make and model?

@SteveH posted:

John, is the Z1000 internal breaker tripping or is an external breaker tripping.  If external, what make and model?

External.  It's one of the Sensata breakers we both use.   There is still that buzzing noise coming from the Sensata breaker we spoke about last year which it was determined was "normal" on a Z-1000.  There is an optional 4A fast blow fuse holder right there to use as an option if the buzzing gets too annoying.

I loosened the screws and centered the pickup rollers, but they are installed in a kind of odd way.

All metal center pickup roller brackets pivot up and down, but these are right over the axles.  If you turn the engine over and push down on them they touch the axles on the trucks.  The axles are metal and have wipers on them.   I looked at it sitting on a track and the metal roller bracket JUST clears the grounded axle.  I don't think that is why it is shorting because there IS clearance, but not very much.

Ran them a lot today and the short hasn't happened yet.  It is the only engine exhibiting this behavior, but as Ted said above, "This is a heavy, feature-laden loco".  It has Legacy features according to the booklet and what is written on the box.  I am pretty sure the problem occurred mostly when it was creeping one chuff at a time slowly around a curve.  It is a little jerky at that slow creep speed on a curve as well.

John

John, I don't remember if you swapped to a larger breaker. Does this layout have a 5.0 Amp AirPax Instant breaker or have you switched to a higher Amp model?  If using the 5A, with this engine creeping along, as Ted suggested with all features activated, and perhaps other cars also drawing enough current,  tripping an already buzzing magnetic breaker (on the verge of tripping).  Plausible.

Another thought is: with very little clearance between the pickup roller bracket and the axle, a little hump in the center rail could cause shorting in some locations...  Is this layout still mounted to a piece of foam board?  Have any of the track or center rails bowed up from the board?

Also, if the pickup roller frame has been shorting on the axle, there may be some evidence of electrical arc pitting on the axle.  Suggest maybe applying some liquid tape to the axle above the pickup roller, or maybe better, filing away a little of the top of the pickup roller frame to provide more clearance.

I agree, Look for track bumps, loose track and insulate where the pickup may contact the ground on the engine.   I had a similar problem on an engine with very little clearance on the center pickup.  It kept happening going over the magnet on a remote control switch.   Over the years the metal core had pulled up about 3/32" or 2mm above the magnet.  When the pickup hit it, it bounced up and lightly welded itself to the engines frame.   Some taps with a light hammer put the core back down smooth and no more shorting.   

Try putting a piece of electrical tape over the suspect area to isolate that as the issue. Maybe not a permanent solution, but good for troubleshooting.

@SteveH posted:

John, I don't remember if you swapped to a larger breaker. Does this layout have a 5.0 Amp AirPax Instant breaker or have you switched to a higher Amp model?  If using the 5A, with this engine creeping along, as Ted suggested with all features activated, and perhaps other cars also drawing enough current,  tripping an already buzzing magnetic breaker (on the verge of tripping).  Plausible.

Another thought is: with very little clearance between the pickup roller bracket and the axle, a little hump in the center rail could cause shorting in some locations...  Is this layout still mounted to a piece of foam board?  Have any of the track or center rails bowed up from the board?

Also, if the pickup roller frame has been shorting on the axle, there may be some evidence of electrical arc pitting on the axle.  Suggest maybe applying some liquid tape to the axle above the pickup roller, or maybe better, filing away a little of the top of the pickup roller frame to provide more clearance.

Yes, it is the 5.0 A AirPax.  I suppose I could switch to the 7.5A, but if there is a dead short it won't matter.  If it is drawing enough current to trip the 5A it would.  I should note that the 7.5A breaker buzzes as well, but only with a Z-1000.

But, I have been unable to replicate it since I  centered the rollers.  There is no arcing on the axle and yes it is his foam board portable layout which never ended up at his apartment because they had another kid.   It's still in my basement.  But at least I know there are no electrical issues from moving the layout around.   If it happens again, I may put a piece of tape on the roller bracket itself

So Connor is always asking to go to Pop Pop's house.  I cannot believe how much he loves this LionChief Plus 2.0 Hudson.  He is addicted to watching Eric's Trains reviews and this one looks and acts like a lot of Legacy engines Eric reviews.  He is one happy kid.

Thanks for the suggestions Steve (as always).

And thanks VHubbard and Rick for those suggestions about isolating the pickup roller bracket.

John

Here's another tip... the LionChief Plus 2.0 electronics control the speed by "chopping" the waveform that goes to the motor.  The Z-1000 also "chops" the outgoing AC waveform at lower throttle settings.  Since you are using the Universal Remote to command the speed, I strongly recommend turning the Z-1000 up almost all the way (but not more than 19V), and leave it there.  If you or your grandson reduces the throttle setting on the Z-1000, then the waveform may be getting chopped twice, which is less than an ideal situation.  Setting the Z-1000 to 19V may cure the jerking at slow speeds on curves.