Lionchief Plus 2.0 Polar Express Berkshire 1932090 Worm gear failure

Again, how the chassis are different just to put all this info into one place.

Good photos, Vernon. You mentioned the soft metal alloy the worm gear was made out of, so I suppose even with regular load, not over-loading with cars, it would wear out regardless? I guess you cannot tell how much run time it had?

@Paul Kallus posted:

Good photos, Vernon. Is the damaged Berk's worm gear due to use, over-loading with cars, etc?

I cannot say first hand (it's not my engine and is from another shop, so I'm getting info second and 3rd hand) but have no reason to suspect so.

Simply put, the metal of the motor worm gear is soft. You don't run a soft metal against Bronze, that's not good practice, I'm not surprised it wore out.

I'm of the opinion most failures are caused by the wrong choice of materials or failure in the design to follow rules that were established back before computers, when men with horn rimmed glasses and slide rules forgot more than some of this generation knows or will ever know. Again, guys with horn rimmed glasses and slide rules and books designed postwar engines- and look how long they lasted. People with computers designed (and that's being generous) this engines gearing, and some bean counter said we can save a few cents if we buy these cheaper alloy steel gears and don't pay for a hardened ground finish, and it wears out.

Further- I said the same thing about this worm gear in the new Lionchief 2-8-0 previous MTH tooling https://ogrforum.com/...1#182184738613949051

The gear to the right is an MTH and the motor on the shaft is the one by Lionel. The surface finish and the base metal material appear to be identical to the one in this topic.

The picture does not do justice here. While there is a subtle color difference, the MTH gear is a much, much, much harder metal and smoother surface finish, possibly plated or coated in some way. The Lionel gear as supplied is just machined soft steel, not hardened and not the smoothest surface finish.

I'm not saying it's going to wear out fast- but if it does wear rapidly and people have failures, well, it was documented.

Flat out, I'm at the point I'm done with big L. this lack of parts, designed to barely make it through the warranty and then you are on your own, I'm done.

Well Vernon, thought I should take a look at mine (same engine as yours).

No damage here although it does not get a lot of track time.

The usual "Vaseline" type watery grease which I have taken out and will replace.

I can already see the beginning of wear and darkness in the contact location in your gear. It's not shot, it's not yet showing massive wear, but IMO, this is how it starts- the grease is contaminated with the metal particles, they embed in the face of the bronze worm wheel, and then just begin cutting this soft worm on the motor.

It's not just the new ones that wear out.  This is from a 25 year old Weaver G2sa.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's not just the new ones that wear out.  This is from a 25 year old Weaver G2sa.

Honestly, reviewing the rules I linked earlier along with my own mechanical experience, I would say that gear set has similar design and manufacturing issues that led to the failure. First, the smaller worm wheel on the axle and tooth count means that less teeth are sharing and in contact with the worm gear on the drive shaft. Further, I suspect the same thing- the wrong material was used- softer metal on the worm gear, and once it begins wearing- that metal contaminates the grease and embeds into the face of the bronze alloy worm wheel, just accelerating the final wear rapidly until it looks like this. While both gears show wear and fail- the steel worm gear wore out faster and IMO was more at fault (again, wrong softer material).

Yep, there was a ton of grindings mixed with the grease when I took it out.  I'm hoping it can be revived with a new gearbox, I spent all the time to upgrade to fan driven smoke, chuff-generator, super-chuffer, cruise, etc.  Got a couple hours at most out of it and this happened.

@Vernon Barry posted:

People with computers designed (and that's being generous) this engines gearing, and some bean counter said we can save a few cents if we buy these cheaper alloy steel gears and don't pay for a hardened ground finish, and it wears out.

Lioncheap?

No suprise really, they have cheapend the gearboxes on most of the scale stuff too.  It'll be interesting to see if there is an epidemic of gearbox failures down the road.

A good number of folks aren't even aware that these new engines lack grease. I've seen more than one video where you can hear the gears of a new Lionel engine growling over the sounds.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's not just the new ones that wear out.  This is from a 25 year old Weaver G2sa.

Not just weaver or LionChief either, when I serviced my Lionel subway cars when the motor failed. There was brass in the truck. In this case the issue is motor slap. The mounting ring loosens up allowing the slap to push out of alignment the two gears.

John you got me to thinking that I have been beginning my upgrades in the wrong place. An examination of the gearbox,its condition and how much lash exists should be my starting point. My guess is there was not an appropriate amount of engagement between the worm and worm wheel when your loco was new. I think you just gave all of us a heads up.           j

@Vernon Barry posted:

…Since after much searching and even contacting Lionel support, there is no motor or parts available. Instead of giving me the parts numbers or links or anything I asked for, this is what they said:"Since this part is out of stock, I can refer you to a parts supply store that might have this part available. S and W Parts Supply "

It's a polite message, but when asking something technical, you gave them the product number, even provided photos of the damage, this is just downright infuriating. A $600 engine dead in the water with shot driveline needing minimally a new motor and gear and mating drive axle and worm wheel to prevent wearing out the new motor faster. …

This right here is what really gets me, I’ve gotten similar messages on newer production locomotives that 1 they don’t even have part numbers or a breakdown for then they go oh well this other supplier might have what your looking for. I’m sorry but the only way anyone has a part is if it came from the manufacturer so how does said manufacturer expect a 3rd party to have a part they don’t even have a part number for. Frankly that just floors me.

That being said my other theory (and this is just my opinion not hard facts) I think said manufacture sets certain criteria for the product to be produced but then another engineer (over seas) gets to figure out how to assemble it and make other changes that speed up assembly because they quoted a job and have their own not to exceed number. I could be wrong or partially wrong but it’s my opinion.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Comparison of the parts:

Thank you for tolerating my misinformation on the other thread.  The failed LionChief Plus 2.0 Berkshire on the right looks a LOT like the motor used in other LionChief Plus 2.0 steam locos such as the Baby K4 and Hudson.  I'm not sure whether those locos are listed yet on the Lionel parts site.  If they are shown (and assuming the motor is in stock), is it worth a gamble to buy one of those motors for comparison?

If your hypothesis about a poor choice of materials is correct (and I'm afraid that it is!), it might be prudent to have an extra motor on hand for quick replacement.  These toys aren't cheap!  Thank you so much for your willingness to explore and provide a detailed analysis.

I think it's accurate to say that electric toy trains have joined the rest of today's manufactured stuff for the consumerist mindset - use it for a while, it breaks, and then throw it in the trash (or the folks who inherit the stuff will when they can't get it to work). I'd even go as far as to say that "stuff" is deliberately designed to "wear out" or "break" after a limited amount of time; forces a consumerist to buy a new one...and the cycle goes on and on...into the landfills, a horrible notion.

Personally, I don't like this mentality - goes against my ethics - though it's almost contagious, especially if you like the "new stuff" with all the bells and whistles. Some of us, probably a small minority of the total, may try to fix it, but without replacement parts, success rate will likely be very small.

Its really sad to see how far they have cheapened the drive line.  Between all the failed K4 gear boxes from too much slop to gears that are not made to last, I just get more frustrated.  Then you have no parts breakdowns since about 2020.  Electronic parts listed as obsolete after 10 years, even though their customer base wants to buy the parts and they won't sell them.  If Lionel only sends the drawings to the manufacture then they need to start listing what materials need to be used.  All the fancy electronics won't help when the gears dissolve in the drive line.  Maybe this eliminates their need to keep electronics past 10 years cause they know the engine won't last that long...

@zhubl posted:

This right here is what really gets me, I’ve gotten similar messages on newer production locomotives that 1 they don’t even have part numbers or a breakdown for then they go oh well this other supplier might have what your looking for. I’m sorry but the only way anyone has a part is if it came from the manufacturer so how does said manufacturer expect a 3rd party to have a part they don’t even have a part number for. Frankly that just floors me.

What I really loved about Lionel for the first 100 years (or at least from the postwar era to 2000 or so) was that if something went wrong, parts were always available easily in some way or another. Even throughout the 00's that was the case for the most part. I have multiple Lionel locomotives from the late 80's/early 90's that I can still service and still operate because modern Lionel still provided ample amount of parts or replacements aren't hard to come by at your local electronics shop. Even RailSounds 1.0 components are still kicking and chugging around over 30 years later.

The longevity of a model train is something that seemed to set Lionel apart from most other manufacturers, and is something I thought O scale companies really prided in. I don't know how many HO guys can still run a model from 1950 or so like the day it was made.

While I don't buy from Lionel's LC line today, stuff like this still really concerns me because Lionel's past marketing has been "More than just a toy - a tradition!" and I don't think you can do that if the thing you're passing on to an optimistic next generation who's interested in getting started is an inherited train that doesn't run anymore with no easy way to get it running again.

Take my words constructively, but better lasting materials, more long-term mechanical designs, and just overall availability of parts if something goes wrong are what should be a big focus for Lionel's line (and everyone else in the market for that matter) going forward if they want to be around for 200 years, because the last thing I want to see is Lionel go out of business.

To tell the truth I do not blame Lionel, as long as people pay for their product why change. The public is the repair/trouble shooter/parts place.

Suspect this will be an unpopular interpretation, but the world has changed since 1955-65 when postwar Lionel trains were "king."  For most of the 20th century, there were places that did radio and TV repairs, and careers made doing same.  All gone.  What happened?  It became clear that the combination of technical progress (does anyone want a 1965 color TV with inferior picture and no wi-fi?) and economies of scale meant that repairing older equipment was both more expensive and less desirable than just buying a new item.  Hence, no parts availability or repairpersons for many consumer items.

It's possible that the demand for parts is so low, and the costs of repairs so high that maintaining both extensive parts inventories and repair capabilities for older items is a losing proposition.  This has its downside, as noted above.   The number of consumers who want to repair and upgrade their locomotives may be so small that Lionel has decided to be quite selective about maintaining parts and service for post-warranty older equipment.  Bummer for those who are handy and technically minded. But trying to stop the tide of history is usually futile.

@Landsteiner posted:

It's possible that the demand for parts is so low, and the costs of repairs so high that maintaining both extensive parts inventories and repair capabilities for older items is a losing proposition.  This has its downside, as noted above. The number of consumers who want to repair and upgrade their locomotives may be so small that Lionel has decided to be quite selective about maintaining parts and service for post-warranty older equipment.  Bummer for those who are handy and technically minded. But trying to stop the tide of history is usually futile.

That would make sense except the older models had mechanical parts that lasted for generations, not just for a few laps around the Christmas tree!

"That would make sense except the older models had mechanical parts that lasted for generations, not just for a few laps around the Christmas tree! "

Why build items that will last for generations, when people will want new items with previously unavailable capabilities within a decade or less?  Not a viable business model for most products.  While there is evidence for decreased quality choices in current products, I think there is some exaggeration of the degree of the problem.  People tend to forget that postwar trains needed extensive maintenance and repair to keep working and the out of the box failure rate was probably actually a lot higher than it is now.  The toys I had in the 1950s were pretty low quality in most cases. The trains we still have around 60-70+  years later are the survivors, a highly selected cohort .

@Landsteiner posted:

Suspect this will be an unpopular interpretation, but the world has changed since 1955-65 when postwar Lionel trains were "king."  For most of the 20th century, there were places that did radio and TV repairs, and careers made doing same.  All gone.  What happened?  It became clear that the combination of technical progress (does anyone want a 1965 color TV with inferior picture and no wi-fi?) and economies of scale meant that repairing older equipment was both more expensive and less desirable than just buying a new item.  Hence, no parts availability or repairpersons for many consumer items.

It's possible that the demand for parts is so low, and the costs of repairs so high that maintaining both extensive parts inventories and repair capabilities for older items is a losing proposition.  This has its downside, as noted above. The number of consumers who want to repair and upgrade their locomotives may be so small that Lionel has decided to be quite selective about maintaining parts and service for post-warranty older equipment.  Bummer for those who are handy and technically minded. But trying to stop the tide of history is usually futile.

First when Lionel built trains years ago they wanted you to come back “ a lifetime of fun”  the hobby changed from running to collecting. While we here run our trains most never even are un-packed. Just look on e bay when someone dies, boxes of engines and cars that never even have the factory shipper opened. That’s the hobby. As for quality it takes very little with good planing to build well. To obsolete electronics today is a choice not a fact. Components may change but replacements  happen in the supply chain you just need to “want” to build it.

It's not even the continued advancements in electronics that bothers me.

I have a Lionel C&O Hudson from 1995 with an AC motor and RailSounds 2. The sounds are static-y, it has no speed control, no fan driven smoke, and its electronic tech is obsolete, BUT it still works and can run alongside the stuff I got yesterday from Lionel AND still uses the existing mechanic and electronic hardware to operate/control it from almost 30 years ago.

All I'm hoping is the most recent equipment from Lionel I've purchased can do that in 30+ years from now. Not just electronic-wise, but equally important (and more of what people on this topic are concerned about) mechanic-wise.

It would be helpful, it would seem, if Lionel would design a relatively small number of robust gearboxes that are mostly universal among lines of product (i.e. LionChief, Vision, etc.), and models within those different lines. The cost of better materials would be offset by reducing the number of different parts that require increased design and supply costs, and stocking expenses. Then it would also be a lot easier for Lionel to stock gearbox parts, given that there are fewer different ones. This universality approach was a key to Postwar reliability and parts availability.

Same with screws, just to mention one thing that I find nonsensical. Why does Lionel use dozens and dozens and dozens of different screws in assembling its products? Talk about complication! Why not use fewer different screws to achieve some level of added universality?

@breezinup posted:

It would be helpful, it would seem, if Lionel would design a relatively small number of robust gearboxes that are mostly universal among lines of product (i.e. LionChief, Vision, etc.), and models within those different lines.

It appears they more or less have done that, just in reverse. Many of the higher end locos get the cheaper motor and gearbox like the lower end stuff.

Some folks don't and won't buy 1995 Lionel (or K-Line or Weaver or MTH) trains because the sounds and control systems are vastly inferior in many ways and the detail is also inferior.  Some folks don't care and prefer the old stuff for various reasons.  But Lionel isn't primarily addressing the needs of people who prefer postwar or prewar, or PS1 locos. They are addressing people who buy train sets now and collect/operate new trains.  These people have different purchasing habits than 65 or 75 year old folks, on average.

I also have no real interest in operating prewar or postwar trains as manufactured 75-100 years ago. I like having a few around for display purposes.  Despite being ancient, I suspect I'm more typical of the current train customers than people who like to repair and restore trains.

Trainz has a couple motors listed with work gears that may work.

"All I'm hoping is the most recent equipment from Lionel I've purchased can do that in 30+ years from now. "

I understand your desire, but it is perhaps unrealistic to have the expectation that any consumer product, other than an anvil, will have a useful life beyond a decade or so.  Why should toy trains and the economics of manufacturing and maintaining them, be different from all other consumer products?  That said, I suspect most rolling stock, buildings and track might well meet your desires.  Locomotives may require more effort to keep functioning that length of time.  With enough time and money, almost anything can be made functional.

Or this:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...W-FLYWHEEL-WORM-GEAR

@CSXJOE posted:

Or this:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...W-FLYWHEEL-WORM-GEAR

No on so many levels. Not the right gear, no sensor, not in the same ballpark.

Edit- further, even if, and that's insane, even if I found a replacement motor, I still need to replace the driven gear and wheelset- so one more correct part to source.

I know people are trying to help, but it has to be the correct part, and more so correct matched pair of parts.

I would like to know about how many hours were on those engines with the worn gears??  I would venture a guess that they might not have been set up or designed properly for the mesh.  Plus, the worm gear drive is a bit unique, in that you have to exceed a certain pitch such that the worm is not turned by the worm wheel, also called pinion or gear wheel.  Looks like a prolonging of life solution is for all worm drives to be cleaned of all grease and re-lubricated after so many hours of operation.  I just went through my various MTH locos checking and charging batteries, looks like another run through to check gearing is in order.

This discussion is very informative and at the same time depressing.  You would think that Lionel would want the reputation it had to continue into the future.  But I am not holding out a lot of hope.

Marty

@martind posted:

This discussion is very informative and at the same time depressing.  You would think that Lionel would want the reputation it had to continue into the future.  But I am not holding out a lot of hope.

Marty

All they seem to care about is the money. And that's how many business's are today.

Another thread that has turned into so many other threads just like it.  Enough said...