Lionel 120th Deluxe F3 Set with the LionelChief Plus 2.0 -- First Look NEW PICs Added

Your new set is beautiful, congratulations. Thanks for posting. Happy Railroading

I prefer the matt over the glossy finish, so to each his own. Also, I see some gloss on the finish of the new locomotive in your photos, but admittedly not as much as on the vintage engine.

I think both F3s are gorgeous trains. Arnold

Dave, it looks great,......enjoy it!

Peter

I'd like to hear more about that Automatic Milk Car!

Jon

Very nice! Looking forward to you showing the rolling stock.

This is a great set for an otherwise modern-era operator looking to stake a claim to something nominally postwar-inspired. Don't worry about the dull paint finish. As it creeps along spitting smoke fluid on itself, it will shine up nicely.

I remember when the Conventional Classics F3s came out.  I was more interested in the New York Central Fs at the time, so I did not buy the Santa Fe units.  I suppose that was the most recent offering until now, of the Santa Fe F3s?  Since then, I have seen Alco FAs and the FTs in Santa Fe red warbonnet, but not the F3.  Seems like a long gap in time, even though the past 10 years have flown by for me.

Thanks for sharing. Now we need a video from someone.

I just looked through the parts for this set. Is this the first milk car issued containing this "re-imagined" mechanism? As a service guy, I don't need much imagination to guess which motor will be around in 5 years.

The old motor - a single coil (used untiil very recently)?

Or the new motor - A circuit board driven servo containing a can motor, probably a half-dozen small, fragile plastic gears, and a delicate plastic arm?  Apparently, someone decided we need a milkman with Odyssey-type speed control.

@GregR posted:

I just looked through the parts for this set. Is this the first milk car issued containing this "re-imagined" mechanism? As a service guy, I don't need much imagination to guess which motor will be around in 5 years.

The old motor - a single coil (used untiil very recently)?

Or the new motor - A circuit board driven servo containing a can motor, probably a half-dozen small, fragile plastic gears, and a delicate plastic arm?  Apparently, someone decided we need a milkman with Odyssey-type speed control.

Apparently I decided we needed a milk car mechanism that doesn't draw instantaneous 2 amps so that it's compatible with the DC wall packs that go in our RTR sets. And there are no small, fragile plastic gears. There's a metal rod that attaches to the metal bracket that the milkman figure is mounted to.

Awesome.  Was that advertised in the catalog?  Because that's KOOL!  Now I want one...

Jon

That servo looks like one of the commercially available radio control components that go into millions of R/C planes, cars and boats. They probably should outlast the owner in most cases is my guess.  Probably cost effective due to the economies of scale when bought from the many suppliers.  Sort of like the chips used in the LionChief system.  Inexpensive and reliable.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Awesome.  Was that advertised in the catalog?  Because that's KOOL!  Now I want one...

Jon

I think it was in there for separate sale. Not inexpensive as I recall.

I didn't mean the car... that was in the catalog in two places.  The feature was unadvertised I believe.... although I have been known to miss a few things.

Jon

Nice train set!  Have fun!

The finish of "matte" or "gloss" is irrelevant  - to me - in this case.

Thanks for the pix.

@Dave Olson posted:

Apparently I decided we needed a milk car mechanism that doesn't draw instantaneous 2 amps so that it's compatible with the DC wall packs that go in our RTR sets. And there are no small, fragile plastic gears. There's a metal rod that attaches to the metal bracket that the milkman figure is mounted to.

Good comeback Dave! You put me in my place The current draw is actually a very good rationale for this change. You're being very modest claiming only 2 Amps. I've measured these cars drawing far more current.  In fact, I have a few that sometimes reach the fold-back threshold on my ZW-L.  I hope your new design is a success with smooth and reliable operation. You'll have to forgive me for being a skeptic. Every time I see a little motor box like that, I get beads of sweat and have a flash-back to the control tower remake with its splitting gears. It's natural to ask why a simple 5-fingered washer, or solenoid isn't sufficient...

This redesign ties in nicely with resolving a bigger issue selling RTR sets to the consumer. Since moving away from the CW-80 to wall packs in starter sets, there has been almost no power margin for expansion. This is a barrier for many customers to purchase and expand their sets. I have seen this problem first hand at the train store many times when a kid buys a couple of accessories only to discover he needs a CW-80 or better.

I think the less glossy finish is more realistic, and prefer that. Just IMHO, of course.

One big improvement I don't think anyone has mentioned is that these new F3s appeared have been lowered compared to the older version.

Thanks everyone for the comments, I will try and post a video of the Mike Car and the F3 in action.  I still work full time and did not have time yet to do a video.  I don't regret for a minute getting the set.   Cannot have enough Santa Fe F3's and milk cars... 

@Former Member posted:

Thanks everyone for the comments, I will try and post a video of the Mike Car and the F3 in action.  I still work full time and did not have time yet to do a video.  I don't regret for a minute getting the set.   Cannot have enough Santa Fe F3's and milk cars...

I recently purchase the set as well and think it's pretty fantastic.   The review provided by CountryBunker's trains helped a lot in my decisionmaking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...sgFNtBOqY&t=826s. Overall, I think the review is balanced.  Hopefully, Lionel will make an add-on set for it.

@cwp_ogr posted:

I recently purchase the set as well and think it's pretty fantastic.   The review provided by CountryBunker's trains helped a lot in my decisionmaking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...sgFNtBOqY&t=826s. Overall, I think the review is balanced.  Hopefully, Lionel will make an add-on set for it.

Okay, it seems YouTube doesn't like copying and pasting of URLs.  Anyway, if you go to YouTube and search for CountryBunker's Trains, you will find the review.

Here are two short videos of the 120th Santa Fe F3 in operation, pulling some vintage passenger cars.  They are a match made in Heaven...

Best, Dave

The 120th Anniversary Deluxe F3s fit in very well with the Postwar 2500 streamline cars. They should, the new F3s are modern day replicas of the original  1950s vintage 2343 and 2353 War Bonnets with all the new electronics,  Nice!

Hey, how about adding another aluminum car to your consist? Then you would really be "Postwar" in terms of looks.

Ed Boyle

@Former Member posted:

At a different angle.

Best, Dave

Nice looking set but on the front nose is the new version's "S" in Santa Fe a reversed "Z"?

That 'backwards Z looking S' isn't far off.

Gorgeous set!  Use it in good health.  Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the videos...looks good!

Great review and photos but there is something way off with the F3's in this set.  Its a different tool than the long running and fully cleaned up classic PW F3 tooling.  The comparison makes it very clear.  Look at the headlight surround and the number boards...the nose profile and windshields...all different.  Lionel had a good version of this classic tooling that was last used on the Black Bonnet Version from a few years ago...and the Neil Young F3's.  Those proportions and gloss were just right.   Why change what already exists and was already re-worked to make it perfect and crisp?    I feel the milk car is the same way...its like a copy of the PW milk car.  Yet that PW based tooling has been fine up until recent.   I almost pre-ordered this set but glad I passed.   I am glad others like this set and I am sure the quality is great.  If someone wants to throw it on a layout and run it I'm sure it looks great.  But I was hoping for a PW copy with modern drivetrain and electronics.

I'm kind of curious why nobody's commented on the yellow striping differences between this model and the earlier versions?  Was the prototype roof striping more rounded, as in the current model, or was it more "v" shaped as in the earlier models?  Same question applies to the side stripe where the 180 degree curve is made; is the prototype a pure curve or was there a little "v" at the tip of the curve?  Also, the black striping on the nose of the newer model seems a little more, shall we say, "discrete."  Is that accurate?  Finally, should the horns on the roof be red, black or aluminum?

Now don't get me wrong; if I were a Santa Fe modeler, I would buy these in a heart beat.  But, when comparing products, it always helps to also state which version is most prototypical while noting the things that are "off" even in that version.

Chuck

NOTE: I didn't comment on the vertical yellow stripe going all the way up to the cab windows because I do believe that is prototypical.

@PRR1950 posted:

I'm kind of curious why nobody's commented on the yellow striping differences between this model and the earlier versions?  Was the prototype roof striping more rounded, as in the current model, or was it more "v" shaped as in the earlier models?  Same question applies to the side stripe where the 180 degree curve is made; is the prototype a pure curve or was there a little "v" at the tip of the curve?  Also, the black striping on the nose of the newer model seems a little more, shall we say, "discrete."  Is that accurate?  Finally, should the horns on the roof be red, black or aluminum?

Now don't get me wrong; if I were a Santa Fe modeler, I would buy these in a heart beat.  But, when comparing products, it always helps to also state which version is most prototypical while noting the things that are "off" even in that version.

Chuck

NOTE: I didn't comment on the vertical yellow stripe going all the way up to the cab windows because I do believe that is prototypical.

The "traditional" F3's from the very beginning have all had issues with the placement of the Warbonnet outline.  What amazes me is how it seems to be different with each reissue.  Given the traditional units are not true scale models, I'm willing to make allowances.  Lionel's scale F3's have the correct placement.

The prototype Santa Fe F3's and F7's had red airhorns.

What distracts my eye is the seam for the nose top and main body seems to have become more noticeable over the years.

Rusty

I'm debating buying this set. I love the Santa Fe Warbonnet paint scheme. It's so beautiful. My Legacy Dash 8 is painted in Warbonnet paint, which my grandpa commented on when he saw the engine. He likes it, too.

As someone who owns both an original 2343 SF F3 A-A and a 2383 SF F3 A-A (they were my dad's and used on the layout he built for us at Christmas mid 60's).... and the "modern" 2343 A-B TMCC from 1996;

This new 120th Deluxe set fits right in on my layout.   It looks and runs great, as do my PostWar and TMCC versions

Thanks for the info, Rusty.

Chuck

@Mike W. posted:

Great review and photos but there is something way off with the F3's in this set.  Its a different tool than the long running and fully cleaned up classic PW F3 tooling.  The comparison makes it very clear.  Look at the headlight surround and the number boards...the nose profile and windshields...all different.  Lionel had a good version of this classic tooling that was last used on the Black Bonnet Version from a few years ago...and the Neil Young F3's.  Those proportions and gloss were just right.   Why change what already exists and was already re-worked to make it perfect and crisp?   

Very interesting. I wonder why they would have bothered to redo the mold. Looking at it, it's easy to see that the headlight surround molding is set lower, and the number board framing is different, and for some reason the number board frame bulges can clearly be seen raised up and extending across the front below the headlight.

The windshield placement is different as well; their openings are down lower and closer to the top of the front hood. The engine sits lower than the earlier version showed, and at least some of that may be because the roof is lower, because of the reduced space between the bottom of the windows and the top of the hood. That is an improvement, though, at least to me. It may make the front windows look a little less squinty than before. The entire front nose section may be shorter as well, not sticking as far forward, but that's a little hard to tell in the photos.

All this said, the engine still looks good, it isn't radically different by any means, and most people probably won't notice the difference from the older versions. It certainly wouldn't keep me from buying a set. I do wonder if the frames are identical, though. I was considering buying a set of these new LC Plus 2 F-3s and putting an older set of shells on them.

Brewman 1973, off-subject, but in the videos I noticed your MPC-era Milwaukee Road EP-5 and Milwaukee passenger cars. It's the first time I've seen anyone else with that combination. That EP-5 matched the cars perfectly, though they didn't come as a set, and they look great together. I swapped the shell on mine and put it on a PWC EP-5 chassis (which is equipped with TMCC and RailSounds, electrocouplers, directional lighting, etc.) to operate on a command layout, and it's great looking train.

Mike W - saw the set a couple of weeks ago at Nicholas Smith and I also noticed the changes in the front/nose area - not sure why they would change the "classic look" of the postwar F3 ??? - oh well

@Rusty Traque posted:

The "traditional" F3's from the very beginning have all had issues with the placement of the Warbonnet outline.  What amazes me is how it seems to be different with each reissue.  Given the traditional units are not true scale models, I'm willing to make allowances.  Lionel's scale F3's have the correct placement.

The prototype Santa Fe F3's and F7's had red airhorns.

What distracts my eye is the seam for the nose top and main body seems to have become more noticeable over the years.

Rusty

I have posted a picture of the F-3 A-unit from the Lionel Postwar Celebration Texas Special Set (6-38100).  You will note that the seam on the nose of the A-unit that Rusty mentions was very noticeable when the Texas Special sets were made back in the late '90s.