These cars, together with the 2 pack and railsounds seem to be available in a few weeks at various dealers or maybe in 2017 (who knows).
Anybody have an opinion on them, expectations and opinions on whether these will be in high demand?
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Well, sight unseen it would be difficult to express an opinion - but hold on, these are the 21" ABS cars and all the other ones issued to date have been generic in the sense that they are based on the first Empire State Express 21" set. The different railroads are just represented by different paint schemes, so I think in a way we have seen them.
Overall the ABS cars are nice models (you can find any number of reviews of them on this forum) but I prefer Lionel's K-Line based 21" aluminum models. And after getting hold of a fine 18" aluminum Lionel Shasta Daylight set a couple of years back I can't say that I am interested in the new offering if it is generic.
I do notice one difference in the catalog illustrations of these SP cars, which is that there is no vista dome car included. I have the Texas Special 21" cars and that set includes a vista dome although the MKT never had one. SP's dome cars were very distinctive and I do not think either Lionel or MTH has ever produced a model based on the prototype. On the other hand, the new cars have full width diaphragms as did the real SP cars so if that detail matters to you there is an advantage in it.
Will they be in high demand? I expect there will be spare sets around if you have not put in a pre-order.
catcarlines posted:These cars, together with the 2 pack and railsounds seem to be available in a few weeks at various dealers or maybe in 2017 (who knows).
Anybody have an opinion on them, expectations and opinions on whether these will be in high demand?
Not that Lionel's shipping schedule is particularly a bell-weather for accuracy... but these cars haven't even made their way onto the schedule since being catalog'd. So unless Lionel is planning a big Christmas surprise, I wouldn't expect these any time soon. It's not even clear when they're gonna be manufactured -- much less delivered. And let's not forget that a few 21" sets were catalog'd earlier and still haven't show up on the shipping schedule... like the UP Excursion, Penn Central, Broadway Ltd, and AFT sets (although the latter will mostly be 18" cars).
As for the "high demand", it's puzzling at best. 
Most folks simply don't have layouts that can accommodate these 21" passenger cars... at least not to the point where the cars "look good" or shall we say "as best as they can look". So part of this is simply Lionel selling what they want to sell at the moment. Quite honestly, I think the secondary market for these 21" cars will be weak at best. And folks who decide to part with these down the road will do so for much less than they paid. So I wouldn't venture into these 21" cars expecting that they'll all be "highly desirable" five years out. To date, most of Lionel's 21" cars have not been offered as BTO products, so there's always a chance that Lionel will under-produce one or two roadnames. And that will set people scrambling for sure. Count on it. 
But really... I prefer the 18" aluminum sets from 8-10 years ago when Lionel produced 7-car sets. I did buy Lionel's recent 21" Texas Special ABS set. And they're nice cars, but I would have preferred if Lionel hadn't cancelled the same set originally announced in 18" aluminum. 
Bottom line... I think a segment of the market is excited about the new 21" cars because they're the NEWEST thing being offered right now. But once the dust settles, these won't garner all that much of a second-look.
David
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Not that Lionel's shipping schedule is particularly a bell-weather for accuracy... but these cars haven't even made their way onto the schedule since being catalog'd. So unless Lionel is planning a big Christmas surprise, I wouldn't expect these any time soon. It's not even clear when they're gonna be manufactured -- much less delivered. And let's not forget that a few 21" sets were catalog'd earlier and still haven't show up on the shipping schedule... like the UP Excursion, Penn Central, Broadway Ltd, and AFT sets (although the latter will mostly be 18" cars).
David
I thought that they had been in the shipping schedule (unlike the UP excursion set - I don't know about the others in David's list) but in any case it's clear they are not there now. So I'm unsure why the OP thought that these particular cars could be available soon.
I don't want to read too much into this but the uncertainty about all these sets is not a good sign. I happened to check the shipping schedule earlier today and thought that it was a little 'lite.'
Thank you guys for your informed opinions. Much appreciated. I decided to take the plunge and ordered the 4 pack, 2 pack and station sounds cars (hope I didn't miss any others that would go with the set). Ordered from Charles Ro. The clerk was very nice and informed me that there were only 2 units left of each skew (who knows how many were ordered before and what kinds of numbers are out there in the hands of various dealers but Charles Ro should have one of the biggest amounts). The dealer is still showing mid December 2016 delivery and the clerk had no further info on that ( I see that Lionel has not listed them). I have the SP "sharknose" ABBA set and can't get enough of the orange and black. The ABBA plus 7 of the 21" cars behind will look pretty good on my layout or the display wall (doubt they all ran together historically but I have to research that a little bit!). Thanks.
Did these cars ever show up?
No sign of them yet. They were supposed to be here at the end of 2016 but the schedule got pushed back, apparently, by a year. Maybe Christmas 2017?!! I probably won't do a pre-order like this ever again. Seems tough to be tied up like this and not have the product show up around an expected date as advertised. It is comical, actually.
It would nice to see a photo of the actual product. I have the GGD Daylight cars and they are impeccable.I don't expect the Lionel cars will come close to these, especially the unique trucks on the S.P. cars. But then again, hopefully Lionel's price will be more affordable.
These cars, and the UP excursion cars, have not been in the shipping schedule for months. Late last year there was a thread on this forum about manufacturing issues that Lionel has encountered with these 21" models. You can see it here:
https://ogrforum.com/...94#70411412225882694.
Since then Lionel has announced the Theater Cars and (speaking of actual product) at York showed samples of some the UP excursion cars, but nothing is in the shipping schedule yet. I've combined some images of the samples kindly provided by J Daddy below, which at least indicate that Lionel is trying to produce the next batch of 21" cars:
There's been some serious production issue with these models and I wish Lionel would update us on when they expect it will be resolved.
Hancock52 posted:
... There's been some serious production issue with these models and I wish Lionel would update us on when they expect it will be resolved.
Lionel is still saying they'll deliver the 21" cars this year yet, but they're giving themselves some wiggle room on the Theatre Cars already. According to the recent Notch6 podcast, those Theatre Cars will likely slip into 2018.
David
I have Freedeom Train and the UP Excursion on order. I worry a bit that theyll have the F40 or VL GG1 syndrome and I'll have a huge shipping bill to get the issues resolved
I checked my dealer - Charles Ro - and these items show "EXPECTED AVAILABILITY BY 08/10/2017". I'll take the over on that!
catcarlines posted:I checked my dealer - Charles Ro - and these items show "EXPECTED AVAILABILITY BY 08/10/2017". .....
Hhhmmmm.... that would imply Lionel has already received them from China, and are shipping to stores now. Charlie's ETA dates are usually when THEY will have items in stock. I'd be surprised if that were an accurate date, since we probably would have heard something about 21" passenger cars starting to trickle in by now. Lionel was supposed to have briefed LCCA convention attendees about product and the new catalog too, but nobody has posted ANY details here yet.
David
Not much to add except to say that I run 18" cars and they are all I can handle.
21" cars won't be here until December. Start production beginning of September.
Theater Car won't ship until 2018 because we're working through getting the camera FCC tested.
Dave Olson posted:21" cars won't be here until December. Start production beginning of September.
Theater Car won't ship until 2018 because we're working through getting the camera FCC tested.
Thanks Dave, it's better to know the position.
P.S. I have now listened to the Notch 6 Podcast and about 18 minutes in Ryan K. does refer specifically to the 21" cars, acknowledges that they've been on backorder "for quite a few years" which is a bit of an exaggeration - it only feels that way - and says they will ship in September so likely be at dealers in November.
Many a slip, I've heard it said . . .
Well after waiting 2 years since I put my deposit on these along with the whole set of cars including the then new 4449 Locomotive. I have to say there are some really great things and really annoying things now that they have finally arrived. The cars are extremely beautiful. Far better than I expected. To me they almost look like Vision line. They seem to work really well as far as running through my turnouts which seems to be more difficult than normal on my track since most of my turnouts are curved and long. The biggest good surprise was the sound from the diner car. It is a cross between my other sound diner cars and the PS-1 sound box cars that showed up last year. So you get the flange, bumping, coupler and creaking sounds that really work well. Tied in with the locomotive even the announcements are automatic which I may be behind the times on that one but didn't expect it. Now the down side. Two of the couplers don't lock well unless you press the pin up by hand hard then they lock but now won't uncouple unless by hand. The other sad thing is one of the body screws was run through the wire for the lights and you guessed it it was the hot wire so it shorted out and burned up the switch. Why do so many of our new train products need something fixed in order to enjoy them. QC has been so poor for a long time.
If I get any requests I'll take pictures an maybe a video of the cars.
Ask SPARKY74 about his!!!
Or search page 117 in the "Buy Anything Cool" thread.
Gee whiz this crap is getting ridiculous!
I received my set last week. They look great(well as good as expected for ABS). However out of the box expect cosmetic issues. On this particular set the Southern Pacific Lines banner and mounting at the top side of the car runs the length of the car. It has tacks on each end and was poorly glued. On my set they are separating from each car and need to be re-glued in the middle and all the way to the edges X 7 cars. Not a great design! Also just like my other sets the observation car rear seats etc are raised in the back(basically warped or the glue came loose). I had to take the body apart, 3 screws and re-attach the rear end portion with glue. Not sure why they did not add another screw to the frame in the rear to avoid this? Its easy to notice as the rear LED is shining out the rear window and not illuminating the drum head.(very bright). I noticed pictures of other members Daylight Observation cars have these same issue. Also the drum head signage & logo is not translucent or transparent so the LED does not illuminate through like some of the other 21'' observation passenger cars. On the plus side, the non flickering lighting and the sounds from the diner car are great. If you don't like to work on your models new out of the box or send back to Lionel these these may not be the Daylight Passenger cars for you!! I did get the Penn Central diner car as well and that car does not have any issues with the signage as the mountings are only the length of the words not the full length of the car. Happy railroading!! Cheers Don
My Lionel 6-83102, 6-83107, and 6-83110 Southern Pacific Lines 21" passenger cars arrived. They are beautiful except that the "Southern Pacific Lines" Strip is falling away from the cars on the 6-83102 4-pack. I can press the plastic stripe back on the car, but the next day they are away from the body shell again.
The coach in the 83107 2-pack has a rear coupler that will not close. Lionel Service does not have parts and does not expect to get any. The couplers and trucks are different on the second run and NOT interchangeable with the previous run.
Lionel's solution to the problems is to return the cars to the dealer for a full refund. (Of course I get to pay the $30.00 shipping) back to the dealer. Lionel will NOT be bringing these cars in for warranty service I was told. The only choice a buyer has is to RETURN the cars, or live with the way they are. There is NO WARRANTY SERVICE available. At $30.00 shipping each way, I can understand why.
A question for Dave Olson. What type of glue do you recommend to slide behind the "Southern Pacific Lines" Stripe using an Exacto knife blade as an applicator? The current glue will only lose its grip over time. I do not want to frost or did-color the plastic name stripe. (If I have used the wrong terms, please forgive me and correct me in a post.)
I have been waiting for these cars to go with my new Steam Whistle GS4 #4449 that Lionel Service repaired when it arrive to me in non-working order too. The engine runs fine now. It would look better with passenger cars.
I had similar issues on the name unsticking and had to play with the couplers. Some of the coupler pins were rotates 180 degress out of the coupler when I received mine and had to rotate them back in the coupler.
John, Yes, I had two Southern Pacific cars that had the coupler pins swiveled around and out of place.
The problem with my 6-83107 Coach from the 2-pack is that the coupler pin, when in the proper position, will NOT catch the coupler knuckle when it closes. One OGR member has two cars acting the same. He was able to force them closed, but an uncoupling track will not have the power to pull the tab down to uncouple the cars when they bind.
Lionel Service said they did not get any parts and don't expect to. The new passenger car couplers and trucks do not interchange with the older first-run 21' Passenger Cars. The only choice is to return the cars for a REFUND. Lionel Service will NOT be bringing the cars in on Warranty Service. They are what they are.
I was told to return the set for another .... and another... and ...
John Rowlen posted:............Lionel Service said they did not get any parts and don't expect to. The new passenger car couplers and trucks do not interchange with the older first-run 21' Passenger Cars. The only choice is to return the cars for a REFUND. Lionel Service will NOT be bringing the cars in on Warranty Service. They are what they are.
I was told to return the set for another .... and another... and ...
I don't have this set on order or anything, but I want to thank all those who did pick one up for documenting these seemingly very prevalent issues.
Gives a lot to think about when making decisions on the new catalog offerings we were all evaluating 2 weeks ago. Sadly this didn't come to light in the fall before that catalog came out. I (at this point I feel unfortunately) did go for one of the passenger car sets from that catalog, and I now am more worried about it than I was when I ultimately decided to place the order.
-Dave
When Lionel announced this second run they said they would sit lower and couple closer than the first run. They also said they would provide trucks and couplers so owners of the first run could lower them to match the second run.
I am surprised you can't at least get trucks and couplers.
Pete
Dave, The problem is the length of the "Southern Pacific Lines" name strip. It runs down the entire side of the car.
I have read on OGR Forum that the cars with smaller name plates are fine.
The long Southern Pacific Lines name strip is riveted at each end, but is a flexible material that separated from the car body along the middle. The manufacture miscalculated the holding power of the glue necessary to keep the long name strip on the car.
I posted a question to Dave Olson for glue suggestions. I plan to use an Exacto Knife to spread glue on the backside of the strip and gently press it back into place, travelling in ONE DIRECTION down the side of the car. I hope it works. The cars are beautiful with a light tan interior. I painted many seated Preiser figures last year for the interior of these cars.
I wish everybody luck with their decision to repair or return the passenger cars.
Pete, I was told by Katie that there were no parts. If there are no parts, Lionel doesn't have a reason to bring the passenger cars in to be serviced, saving them repair time and two shipping costs, from you to them and back to you. Most of the repairs would be time-consuming cosmetic repairs on passengers cars that are large and expensive to ship. The average long-time train hobbyist should be capable of these repairs.
Maybe parts will one day be available, but I was told not to expect them.
I have never heard of a manufacturer not having parts, though the Atlas O F7s did not have extra cosmetic parts available when I bought my F7 engines.
The hobby is changing.
Never Preorder Anything.
Professor Chaos posted:Never Preorder Anything.
And if you did preorder the UP excursion set, you have time to cancel your preorder. Will be interesting to see how the issues with the Southern Pacific cars get handled. If one decides to glue the strips back on by themselves be careful. Glue oozing out from behind the banner and damaging paint will only make things worse. Your eye will focus on that flaw caused by glue every time you look at it. Why should that be your responsibility to repair that anyway? Feel guilty for canceling a preorder? Feel like your sticking your dealer? Too bad ,is spending all that money after a 2 yr wait going to make you feel better?
I received my set last week. For close to $1K for the 4 pack, 2 pack and sound car, these issues that everyone is having are a joke. Unfortunately, I experienced:
1. Strips on about a third of the cars pulling away. For now, I pressed them back into place and they are holding with whatever residual glue is there.
2. A bad coupler on one of the cars which I fiddled with and seems to be working.
3. Intermittent interior lighting problem in the sound car. Seems to be pretty dimly lit compared to the other cars.
Would I ever pre-order (anything) again? No. Waiting this long is just silly. Having these problems out of the box, very disappointing. The product and craftsmanship need to be perfect for this price and wait. And, the notion of having "empty" cars - no people inside - for this price is really unacceptable.
Does the set look absolutely fabulous being pulled behind my SP Sharknose ABBA? Oh yes. 
Seven passenger cars for a grand? List price for K-Line was that much two decades ago. Take a guess what a more or less correct string of Sunset "Daylight" cars would cost?
Well if 3rd Rail made the Daylight again you’d pay $2300 for 8 cars so about $300 a car and you’d only get 6 people, crappy light bars and stuff rattling around inside. For $300 you wont get perfect either. For $1300 a car you can buy some Key brass cars and they’ll be impeccably detailed but still not perfect. No available parts is total BS but I think you guys are setting the bar too high for Lionel on price vs perfection but they need to up their game in the quality
A year ago I sold my set of Third Rail cars as their colors were so far off, I hoped Lionel would do a better job of matching their GS-4. Now they are here and the colors are not perfect but a much closer match - particularly given the time between production of the loco and the cars. The reds are just a tiny bit different.
My problem, in addition to one numberboard loose as Catcarlines noted - but pressed back into place, was the couplers. Despite being plastic, all seven cars make a heavy train. And I had continual problems with couplers popping open. So, I took each apart, opened the spring to increase the tension, added a metal washer to hold the spring better in place (Lionel has a washer shaped piece of plastic on top of the spring for whatever reason I cannot fathom) and reassembled the coupler. Now no false uncouplings.
Do I like the set - absolutely. The cars are gorgeous and the diner sounds are really fun. So, behind the GS-4 or my SP E-8s, it is a great looking train.
I have two sets left of each..... O54 Minimum Curve
Lionel 6-83102 - Daylight 21" Passenger Car "Southern Pacific" (4-Car)
Lionel 6-83107 - Daylight 21" Passenger Car "Southern Pacific" (2-Car)
PeterA posted:A year ago I sold my set of Third Rail cars as their colors were so far off,
The Sunset/3rd Rail "colors were so far off" from what? The colors on the Sunset/3rd Rail Daylight set that I have match the SP paint color master chips VERY, VERY closely. Not to mention, the cars match the colors on the real SP 4449, which is also painted to match SP Daylight red & orange paint chip specifications.
I hoped Lionel would do a better job of matching their GS-4. Now they are here and the colors are not perfect but a much closer match - particularly given the time between production of the loco and the cars. The reds are just a tiny bit different.
My problem, in addition to one numberboard loose as Catcarlines noted - but pressed back into place, was the couplers. Despite being plastic, all seven cars make a heavy train. And I had continual problems with couplers popping open. So, I took each apart, opened the spring to increase the tension, added a metal washer to hold the spring better in place (Lionel has a washer shaped piece of plastic on top of the spring for whatever reason I cannot fathom) and reassembled the coupler. Now no false uncouplings.
Do I like the set - absolutely. The cars are gorgeous and the diner sounds are really fun. So, behind the GS-4 or my SP E-8s, it is a great looking train.
I’m in agreement with Jack. Knowing Scott’s research practices I know he was very diligent in getting the paint correct. The Lionel colors are more likely to be wrong than 3rd Rail/GGD. What exactly are you comparing them to?
Matt Makens posted:The Lionel colors are more likely to be wrong than 3rd Rail/GGD.
Many thought the Sunset/3rd Rail Daylight did not accurately reflect the actual engine's colors, that they were too dull, and were a flat color. The Sunset model is the top picture; the real deal is the lower photo. The real engine has more vibrant paint colors (especially the orange), and clearly has a gloss finish. Quite different from the Sunset model. The Lionel models are much more accurate.
breezinup posted:The Lionel models are much more accurate.
Where is your proof?
What do the SP experts think about the corregated roofs? I have never seen one on a Daylight but maybe others have. It was my understanding that at least the 1937 cars were all Pullman Standard and and had smooth roofs.
Anyone with a pic that match Lionel's cars?
I think these are just ESE Budd cars painted Daylight colors. They certainly have the ESE silver diaphrams unlike the better matching ones that came on the 18" cars.
Pete
I think a couple of the old Budd cars were painted in Daylight colors - but never during the actual steam years.
I would say that, while not perfect, the Sunset extrusions were about as accurate as any O Scale Daylight cars ever produced in quantity. The pattern of corrugations is unusual for Pullman in that the corrugations are inset. Windows, letterboards, and roof/sub floor, were all flush with the outermost ridges of the corrugations.
Most Pullman corrugated "Ten-Cor?" Cars were the opposite. K-Line's Pullman extrusion was quite good for Eastern roads and some ATSF, but way, way off the mark for SP. If you want accurate Daylight cars, your only choice right now is Sunset - unless you model the 1990s, where a Daylight-painted Budd car may have actually existed.
PeterA posted:A year ago I sold my set of Third Rail cars as their colors were so far off, I hoped Lionel would do a better job of matching their GS-4. Now they are here and the colors are not perfect but a much closer match - particularly given the time between production of the loco and the cars. The reds are just a tiny bit different........
Did you guys jumping all over Peter even read what he wrote, or did you just hone in on the "it's so far off" and stop there?
He clearly states he is comparing to the Lionel GS-4 that he already had.
I don't think he was trying to start a "which model is closer to the prototype paint chips" ****ing contest, just trying to match to the engine he already had to go with cars.
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