@Former Member posted:While aggravating to the NYC faithful this has indeed been an interesting thread for all those who strive for at least a modicum of accuracy in paint schemes/shades. It almost makes me happy that some of my purchases of new fantasy scheme engines avoid this kind of angst.
Can not go wrong when there’s nothing to compare it to,…..I like how some of these cats whine about the red on the Pacemaker engines……that never existed ……what are you whining about!!!!?
Pat
Pat, now that is dynamite. If I didn't have so many projects you were doing already as well as others lined up, I'd say, "Hey Pat, here's another one I know you could do for me........"
I guess that would be on the list when things change if we both would be ready. Right now, we're both not ready. Fantastic, breathtaking, and utterly F---ing amazing. Sorry, I had to do that.
I will confirm that NYCSHS has the original color ships from Dupont for the 1948 20th Century. Access "nycshs.org" and use the pulldown menu "About NYC" to access "NYC Colors". Photos of the chips are included in the posted article AND I had each chip read by both Sherwin Williams and Lowes "so that the exact colors could be replicated by anyone...."
I can confirm that our former Prez H. Lansing Vail wrote an article in our "Central Headlight" magazine that concluded that the 1938 and the 1948 colors were the same and just reversed after it was determined that the oily exhaust from the EMD E7 hauled train was difficult to remove with car washing equipment and the 1948 "dark grey" color somewhat disguised this issue.
The Society does not have the 1938 light grey chip, but the color reversal from the 1938 train to the 1948 train seems reasonable (at least to me).
These trains were painted with acrylic lacquer that was shiny, shiny, shiny, but became "flat" after exposure to sunlight, cleaning chemicals, and dirt.
When former PRR Motive Power Department official and NYC fan Tom Harley was still with us, and MTH had introduced their 5445 Dreyfuss Hudson, I showed Tom the MTH engine at an O scale/gauge train meet and asked him if the color was "correct". He replied that he thought it was "a few shades too light but certainly close." (Tom as a kid traveling with his parents saw three Dreyfuss engines at Toledo one evening before the war.)
The 1948 20th Century by 3rd Rail is identical to the 1948 chip color. Congrats to Scott Mann on this!
The '38 Century, confirmed by photos, had two NARROW stripes at each end of each car when NEW. The striping was edged in "Opex Blue". NYCSHS does not have that color chip. "Opex" was a paint "line" by Dupont. (I once had a can of "Opex" paint remover.) Opex blue has been described as an "electric blue". The two wide white stripes were a 1940 repaint, which also removed the Opex Blue edging.
This color discussion resumes each time the '38 or '48 trains are reissued. I suppose there will never be an answer that will convince everyone. The documentation is available to get this right.....
I forgot to mention that any comparison of images should be taken using the SAME lighting conditions. Bright sunlight or open outdoor shade is probably best. All kinds of incandescent and fluorescent lighting is, in my opinion, problematic. I was involved in paint issues when I worked for a locomotive builder. The builder kept paint chips for each customer in a temperature and humidity-controlled cabinet and when paint was ordered the chip was always sent to the paint vendor and returned with the shipment. In spite of this, we ended up buying a very expensive color checker as a result of various "customers" with a self declared "fine eye for color" declaring we used "leftover paint from another customer". The color checker settled that. (I think the checker could discern hundreds of "hues" of any color, and really set a standard that no human eye could match.)
@Hudson5432 posted:I forgot to mention that any comparison of images should be taken using the SAME lighting conditions. Bright sunlight or open outdoor shade is probably best. All kinds of incandescent and fluorescent lighting is, in my opinion, problematic. I was involved in paint issues when I worked for a locomotive builder. The builder kept paint chips for each customer in a temperature and humidity-controlled cabinet and when paint was ordered the chip was always sent to the paint vendor and returned with the shipment. In spite of this, we ended up buying a very expensive color checker as a result of various "customers" with a self declared "fine eye for color" declaring we used "leftover paint from another customer". The color checker settled that. (I think the checker could discern hundreds of "hues" of any color, and really set a standard that no human eye could match.)
Not always true, while a paint eye can get it reasonably close, it’s nowhere’s near a guaranteed match. I spray for a living, and can tell you multiple brands of paint match machines ( even those developed by Dupont ) have a margin of error greater than the human eye, …..I can never rely on the checker 100%, ….a spray out and “cocktailing “ of the intended color is mandatory ……
Pat
Well, I get curious on videos and colors. I happen to remember that Mr. Muffin had gotten in the Santa Fe Northerns, and I was curious about how the color looked in his video compared to the one in Ryan's video that I had posted over on page 1. On Ryan's video, the blue and the top color(not sure if it is a light blue, grey, silver or something else), look like a light blue and a medium white or silver. In Mr. Muffin's video, the blue looks darker and the top color looks darker than in Ryan's video as well. Also, it has a color divided the two which is not really noticable in Ryan's video.
So, what does all this mean you may ask? Well, Ryan's lighting is definitely affecting the colors of the locomotives in front of him. However, that being said I still think that the shade of grey on the Dreyfuss Hudson is going to be lighter than what we believe to be the standard Dreyfuss's colors. I will include this thought to this as well. We don't know which of the Dreyfuss's Ryan has in front of him. Are they all the same tone of grey? Based on what Pat had posted on the Mercury models I would say yes. Is it possible Lionel went lighter on their Mercury model than on the other Dreyfuss's? That is a question yet to be answered.
My guess though is that they are indeed lighter(standard colors I mean) than what they should be. I guess we'll know probably in at least two weeks.
And as I’ve said before, even on our investigations, you gotta take what I’m giving y’all with a grain of salt, …..do we believe we come up with the correct color based on formula? …..you bet your *** we do!…but, that’s our decision, and doesn’t have to be yours, …..we felt confident when we opened the can next to the Smithsonian shell, and were pleasantly surprised……I want to say fable back story on the Smithsonian paint work was somebody was also able to penetrate the DuPont system as my DuPont rep did, and thus that’s how they got the color correct as well, …..maybe someone can confirm, or disprove that myth? ……..as that would be handy information to have on this thread for future research/ reference……..this is why we rolled with the formula we came up with ( I say we, it was all my rep’s doing ) ….I never gave him the Smithsonian shell, I never even showed it to him, in fact he didn’t know it was a gray paint till I said something after showing him some codes……So when he contacted me via phone and said, hey the AE formula ingredients exist, but the lacquer doesn’t, I said oh my word!….he found something!…I said run it, …..he was then able to convert it to a modern urethane with the caveat he said more than likely 2/3rds of the original AE formula had lead in the toners…….So in a nutshell, as I posted earlier with the paint can lid next to the Smithsonian shell, as you can see, it’s about as close a match as you could ask for, …..We believe we attempted and succeeded at the same task given to the folks in charge of the Smithsonian project if the stories told holds merit……fascinating stuff,….& fantastic discussion….
Pat
As for what Lionel did with this train set, the world may never know, ….however, I’ll bet my bottom dollar the latest Dreyfus locomotive will indeed match the new 21” cars, and that will be good news for those that are fine with the current coloring (but seriously, that’s great for them! ) …..and of course, the faithful YouTubers will review the set in its entirety, and say what a wonderful job they did, and that’s fine too, for 90% of the intended market, it’s a home run for them, ….It’s guys like Phil’s store in the heart of NYC aficionados that I feel bad for. When I talked to Phil the other day, that man has his finger on the pulse of his clients wishes: accurate as can be for the New York Central …..Phil told me his clients don’t accept inaccuracies, they demand accuracy……they had no reason that I can see not to hit this one out of the park at the first at-bat ….
Pat
I don't know if the engine is going to be dark enough though, based on Phil's pictures compared to the Dreyfuss in Ryan's video, they don't look like they match, at least albeit with different lighting on them. The first picture by Phil, that looks a different shade based on the lighting, but still the Dreyfuss looks even lighter than that. I guess we have to wait and watch the clock Pat. Only time will tell. Tick Tock, Tick Tock.
I notice all the Dreyfus hudsons gave been deleted from the Lionelstore.com page for several days now.....similar to Strasburg 90 having been removed for some time now...... Makes me wonder if a problem has been discovered with them. Anyone have any insight?
@Brian DeFazio posted:I notice all the Dreyfus hudsons gave been deleted from the Lionelstore.com page for several days now.....similar to Strasburg 90 having been removed for some time now...... Makes me wonder if a problem has been discovered with them. Anyone have any insight?
Well that's interesting. No clue on why. I know that in Ryan's video he was saying that #90 would be shipping soon along with all the other locomotives in the video. I don't think there was anything there that wasn't scheduled.
"Makes me wonder if a problem has been discovered with them. Anyone have any insight?"
Best guess is that all the production run is spoken for with dealer orders/customers ordering direct, so they cannot be allowing people to order on line from the store.
@rdunniii posted:Having a set of the Smithsonian cars I would say the light gray appears too light and the dark gray appears black but it could just be the lighting. The paint actually looks pretty good to me.
However, the foreground cars says it's a Cascade which is a 10-5 and the windows are all wrong.
The car in the background appears to be a 13 double bedroom/County and what I can see appears OK.
Window layout is wrong, but color is fine. No such thing a right color. Would all depend on when the car went into the paint shop, where the shop was and who did the paint.
also, even though the window layout is wrong, it too is correct. Railroads throughout the history of passenger cars move things around and nameplates get switched. It was not uncommon to have a nameplate placed on a car that was in service as a replacement for the original car. This would normally happen in a derailment or if the car had some real technical issues.
. This would normally happen in a derailment or if the car had some real technical issues.
I also think we call them toys. LMAO
Someone asked if the cars were easy to open. YES, the cars are opened by removing the four screws at the corners of the chassis. There is a wire to the roof LED Lights that comes from the vestibule entrance end of the car.
"Cascade Spirit" Since I detail all of my passenger cars with PREISER 65602 Unpainted Seated People that I paint, I opened my two cars and took photos of the interiors. Some of the details are missing from the "Cascade Spirit" interior molds, such as seats in the center staterooms in the sleeper. (These details have been missing from previous floor molds for this passenger interior in other car sets.) I have used seats from coach interiors to add seats to the center rooms so my people have a place to sit. Unfortunately, Lionel Parts is out of the coach interior parts.
I find it difficult to read the silver paint used for the "Cascade Spirit" name on the side of the car. After cataract surgery, my vision needs a higher contrast between colors to read them easily.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
"Imperial Garden"
The second passenger car in the 20th Century two-pack is the "Imperial Garden". All details are in the car except for a sink in a bathroom. The interiors have seats in all staterooms and are fun to detail. I usually use a light tan paint to paint seats for contrast as you look into the car and see the people seated enjoying their trip.
Sincerely, John Rowlen.
@John Rowlen posted:
Hi John, having seen your previous posts on your very detailed customization of the interiors, I can safely say that you do amazing work!
The rest of the set is now for sale on Lionel store.com. So we should be seeing them at dealers soon.
I have to ask if the real deal has silver lettering on the cars? I agree with John Rowlen that it is hard to read, which is also why I ask. I wouldn't think it would have been silver paint, but I wasn't there to see what it looked like. Maybe it added to the look?
I have a question for forum colleagues that have in hand Lionel 2327320 2 car set:
- what are the name and/or numbers and type (seat, sleeper, and so on) of the 2 cars ?
The reason of my question is to know if these 2 cars are included in the other 2 sets Lionel 2327310 and Lionel 2327330.
The photos in Lionel 2023 Catalog and not clear and the notes are not set specific.
Thanks,
Cris
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I have to ask if the real deal has silver lettering on the cars? I agree with John Rowlen that it is hard to read, which is also why I ask. I wouldn't think it would have been silver paint, but I wasn't there to see what it looked like. Maybe it added to the look?
The correct color for the lettering is "Light Aluminum" which is a fairly light silver that borders on light gray with a black pinstripe around the letters. This was found on the 1938 and 1948 20th Century Limited cars. Not having seen the Lionel cars in person, I can't say if it the color is correct or not.
@GG1 4877 posted:The correct color for the lettering is "Light Aluminum" which is a fairly light silver that borders on light gray with a black pinstripe around the letters. This was found on the 1938 and 1948 20th Century Limited cars. Not having seen the Lionel cars in person, I can't say if it the color is correct or not.
Johnathan is correct, the lettering & cab numbers were aluminum…..however, back then they did not have any type of UV protection in the finishes. So the aluminum color quickly faded to an almost white,……hence every black & white photo, they appear white ……it’s kind of a mute point as every other color on the cars is wrong, so to be anywhere near close would require a complete re-paint…..had they gotten the stripe right, ( which is a country mile off too ) I could’ve saved these cars by masking off the stripes, and just spraying the car bodies the correct shade of gray, ….this could’ve been done for small(er) money for those wanting something close to accurate ……but having to redo stripe & all would price it in the stratosphere…….sad, ….y’all waited for 21” CENTURY cars forever,…..all you can hope for now is that the engine at least matches the incorrect cars, ….at least you’ll have a full set incorrect…..😉
Pat
I compared photos posted by John Rowlen (thanks John) with other from internet.
Cascade Spirit and Imperial Garden from Lionel 2327320 (2 cars set) looks to have the same compartment arrangement with Cascade Glory and Imperial Court from Lionel 2327310 (4 cars set), in case somebody is interested.
Cris
? Does anyone know the correct colors of the interiors of the cars So far my research indicates that the rear facing seats in the observation car were blue leather, the seats in the diner were red , couches were light brown and the interior of the sleeping. Cars were a very light green with rust colored blankets Is this correct?
More photos:
@FJI posted:? Does anyone know the correct colors of the interiors of the cars So far my research indicates that the rear facing seats in the observation car were blue leather, the seats in the diner were red , couches were light brown and the interior of the sleeping. Cars were a very light green with rust colored blankets Is this correct?
Gonna work your way from the inside out?
Pat
I hope to detail the interior of the cars by painting some of the walls seats etc the proper colors adding some scratch build seats and backs to the seats in the dining cars (if necessary) together with some staff and passengers I don’t intend to alter the exterior of the cars This would be similar to the way I detailed my Broadway limited cars I am a great admirer of John Rowlen’s work and have been inspired by him to do the best job I can to bring the interior of my passenger cars to life
For passenger cars it golden gate depot or nothing even at the high price— really stunning how Lionel botched this iconic set — a set that has more correct models and research than any other passenger train
@20centuryhudson posted:For passenger cars it golden gate depot or nothing even at the high price— really stunning how Lionel botched this iconic set — a set that has more correct models and research than any other passenger train
For 21 inch cars, GGD & the Smithsonian cars ….I’d say the Smithsonian cars edge out the GGD’s on color……the entire Smithsonian set should be the “standard” the model makers today go by for accuracy……pretty unbelievable the one model maker that has the plans for the Smithsonian made a pop fly with the bases loaded…..
Pat
I am really dumbfounded how this happens at all — it’s just as easy to get it right than wrong and what’s even more inexplicable is this is the same company that has really done some fantastic stuff like the class A for example —
Those cars are so bad it's scary. Black middle stripe, no skirts, and that carbody gray!!?? I shudder to see the Hudson. Lionel can't even get a train right that they've done right before.
- Crank
Not to mention all these issues with a very hefty price tag. Sad to think this goes on at all.
The good news is we have the entire 8-car sets in stock now. All are conveniently available and ordered now on our website at:
https://jrjunction.com/product...d-passenger-car-set/
https://jrjunction.com/product...passenger-2-car-set/
https://jrjunction.com/product...mited-diner-car-set/
I understand the locomotives for this set will be shipping in soon.
More good news, MTH is releasing their Dreyfuss steam locomotives soon and I expect Atlas O to offer matching 18” passenger cars to compliment them.
Love or hate the (horribly wrong) colors the Lionel cars are painted, the full-width diaphragms they have are fantastically detailed. I wish my Golden Gate ‘48 Century 12-car set had them.
Lionel should be embarrassed about those color issues. How do you fail a test you already have the answers for?
Well, we can sit here and bash them into the ground, but it doesn’t fix the problem,….I know I’m guilty too, so I’m not wexhaunerating myself, but let’s look into the dynamics of what’s going on in mere hopes of answers, & or a solution ,……so now that we’ve beaten the dead horse to death, and then beat him some more for posterity, ….let’s try and digest what in the world is going on!!….
The recently released Aberdeen Carolina & Western trains they produced are supposedly spot on, ….I recall a video they did where they had a meet & greet with one of the clubs, or organizations and they went into the art department, and touted on their extensive research to get the colors right, …..and I don’t see where they made any mistakes there, ….I’m not a Aberdeen, Carolina & Western guy, so I can’t say with authority whether they’re right or wrong, …sure look pretty close??….take the YouTubers off the table, they’re so full of sugar & spice & everything’s nice we’ll never get a straight answer from that ……
This problem with NYC colors goes all the way back to the 18-19 Pacemaker set,….I wanted the Hudson out of that set, and finally landed a great deal on the whole set ….so I got the cars, …..which are about the same far off shade of gray as these new CENTRUTY car offerings ….I plan on simply shooting the cars Pullman green, and condemning them to commuter duty, as I have the Kline Pacemakers, which are extremely close to correct!….
Maybe if we stop just for a wee bit with the negativity ( I know, and agree, it’s warranted ) maybe we’ll get some answers from the orange box folks…..maybe??….I’m reaching, I know, but getting into the nuts & bolts of what happened, & what’s gonna happen from here out will better inform us consumers, …do we stay away? Or is there plans in the future to listen to the consumers,….(remember us??…we keep the lights on??.) ….
Pat
@JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:Love or hate the (horribly wrong) colors the Lionel cars are painted, the full-width diaphragms they have are fantastically detailed. I wish my Golden Gate ‘48 Century 12-car set had them.
It would be even better if the real 1948 20th Century Limited had full width diaphragms, but it didn't 
@harmonyards posted:Maybe if we stop just for a wee bit with the negativity ( I know, and agree, it’s warranted ) maybe we’ll get some answers from the orange box folks…..maybe??….I’m reaching, I know, but getting into the nuts & bolts of what happened, & what’s gonna happen from here out will better inform us consumers, …do we stay away? Or is there plans in the future to listen to the consumers,….(remember us??…we keep the lights on??.) ….
Pat
This kind of stuff happens more often than we all would like as modelers regardless of manufacturer. While it is impossible to say what actually happened, when the cars arrived in the container they were not right. It is a little late for any manufacturer to fix it at that point. Their best bet is to ship it and hope that most people are happy and take returns on the ones for those who are not happy. O scale has become so niche that there isn't the budget to send this back and make it right. That ship has sailed to so to speak.
I wish it was different, but it's not. It just falls on the QAQC folk to be extremely diligent in their work and we all make mistakes from time to time. Doesn't make it right, it just acknowledges that it happens.
@GG1 4877 posted:This kind of stuff happens more often than we all would like as modelers regardless of manufacturer. While it is impossible to say what actually happened, when the cars arrived in the container they were not right. It is a little late for any manufacturer to fix it at that point. Their best bet is to ship it and hope that most people are happy and take returns on the ones for those who are not happy. O scale has become so niche that there isn't the budget to send this back and make it right. That ship has sailed to so to speak.
I wish it was different, but it's not. It just falls on the QAQC folk to be extremely diligent in their work and we all make mistakes from time to time. Doesn't make it right, it just acknowledges that it happens.
Agreed, …100%, …..that’s why understanding all the dynamics is as important as pointing out the deficiencies,…..as I mentioned, when they were filming in the art dept. they made it clear they were 100% committed to making the colors as accurate as possible on that particular Aberdeen set, ……and how hard they were working on it…so I guess you’re right, the ship has sailed, the die is cast, etc, etc,…..it would be nice to know where the link was broken, OR was there even a link to break!….I know you work with Scott, and pretty sure y’all proof stuff before saying the vows “I do” ..cause like you said, …once you cut the seal on that container, you own it baby!!….hope you’re happy!!…
Pat
I just received the rest of the set and even though yes, the color is lighter than what I would have wanted, they are not horrible like some have hinted at and I still like them. As long as the engine matches the cars, I will be good. The cars were never exact models of the real ones, just their standard 21 inchers modified. Just representations really. I will say having these in person, that a lot of the pics on here are way overblown and some look way lighter than they actually are in person. Perhaps first we need some lessons in photography lol. Everyone with a phone thinks they are a photographer, lol.
I don't have a problem calling Lionel out though when they make mistakes. Even though I do YouTube videos, I call it like it is and don't sugarcoat anything just for clicks. My Strasburg #89 fiasco proved that, lol. But if I do like something, I will say so.
I'm not a NYC expert in any way, so for someone like me who has been wanting a Legacy Dreyfuss 20th Century set for a long time, I can accept this one. Refusing to buy it in protest won't get me a Legacy Dreyfuss (which Lionel knows).
But Lionel and Paint colors have had a long/turbulent history, and they really should spend some time/money on fixing that recurring issue. Even though they are toys, I do agree scale models at these prices should be as accurate as possible.
I saw the red color on the cab /tender on one of the versions of the new Strasburg 90 and it looked way to bright to me and that engine was scrutinized to death.
I think at this point we have all learned that catalog images and actual production models cannot be guaranteed to match.
So just don't preorder and wait until they arrive to decide to buy one.
Oh, and one last note: I don't think I have ever seen any of these ever manufactured by anyone that have been the same shade of grey from any manufacturer over the years. The shades varied widely.
@Sean's Train Depot posted:I just received the rest of the set and even though yes, the color is lighter than what I would have wanted, they are not horrible like some have hinted at and I still like them. As long as the engine matches the cars, I will be good. The cars were never exact models of the real ones, just their standard 21 inchers modified. Just representations really. I will say having these in person, that a lot of the pics on here are way overblown and some look way lighter than they actually are in person. Perhaps first we need some lessons in photography lol. Everyone with a phone thinks they are a photographer, lol.
I don't have a problem calling Lionel out though when they make mistakes. Even though I do YouTube videos, I call it like it is and don't sugarcoat anything just for clicks. My Strasburg #89 fiasco proved that, lol. But if I do like something, I will say so.
I'm not a NYC expert in any way, so for someone like me who has been wanting a Legacy Dreyfuss 20th Century set for a long time, I can accept this one. Refusing to buy it in protest won't get me a Legacy Dreyfuss (which Lionel knows).
But Lionel and Paint colors have had a long/turbulent history, and they really should spend some time/money on fixing that recurring issue. Even though they are toys, I do agree scale models at these prices should be as accurate as possible.
I saw the red color on the cab /tender on one of the versions of the new Strasburg 90 and it looked way to bright to me and that engine was scrutinized to death.
I think at this point we have all learned that catalog images and actual production models cannot be guaranteed to match.
So just don't preorder and wait until they arrive to decide to buy one.
Oh, and one last note: I don't think I have ever seen any of these ever manufactured by anyone that have been the same shade of grey from any manufacturer over the years. The shades varied widely.
That is great you’re happy with the set, that’s what the hobby is all about!……however, for dedicated NYC modelers, they’re a country mile off, …..so if you’re not a NYC modeler, your comments regarding color don’t hold a whole lot of weight. Most guys/gals such as yourself that collect whatever tickles your fancy at the given moment, won’t really care if the color(s) are off or not, ….therefore, the conversation is more geared towards those that specifically model the NYC, …..3 rail scale modeling is a thing, and some of us ( a lot more than ya think ) want some level of accuracy,…..
Pat
Getting colors and striping close--exact is to a certain extent is open to some interpretation---should be a expected--its not rocket science --it is just as bad as having a one axle trailing truck on a hudson in my opinion--what is really galling is it is just as easy to get it right as wrong---its not a cost issue its a qc/research/integrity issue and in my opinion shows a disdain for the customer--the they will buy anything attitude----for items this expensive its a minimal requirement---the built to order business model only works if theres a trust between manufacturer and consumer because you are buying something sight unseen---lionel does not deserve that trust especially on a new item not a rerun---
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