Lionel 21” NYC 20th Century Passenger cars are starting to arrive

@Eccentric Crank posted:

Those cars are so bad it's scary.  Black middle stripe, no skirts, and that carbody gray!!??   I shudder to see the Hudson.  Lionel can't even get a train right that they've done right before.

- Crank

Crank, the real questions we should be saying is did they get the toilets right? Are they at the end of the observation cars again, or where they should be? That's what we should be asking, that is if the toilets themselves are the correct toilets that the real 20TH Century Limited had on there.

All joking aside, I did see Sean's video of the rest of the set. He to his credit said that he wasn't sure if the cars were right(referring to New York Central vs Pullman). He did say that they matched each other, so at least that covers not having one car blue and one car very light blue like how the Polar Express cars were.

So, yeah the colors are not the right shades, not the right patterns, and whatever else could and should be dug up. May have to commission Pat to get the Harmon Shops doing all the corrections to make it accurate, but that also may involve modding or substituting some other cars for those.

Ugh.

Dave,

We all know that the toilets should be on top of the cars.  

Johnathan,

The Lionel Proejct Manager was given drawings, photos, advice, instructions on paint, colors, striping etc from an NYC expert and was specifically told that the best solution was to copy the colors of their own Smithsonian Set.  Of course maybe some other so called experts got involved and told them to paint the train an off white with black stripes.....  But who knows.  It does appear that they don't really care about doing things right, just about doing things for the Lionel collectors to buy.  Remember their slogan,  It'll sell, its Lionel!

And before anyone goes off again, this thread was started on the 3 Rail Scale forum which is the place the moderators gave us to talk about prototypical accuracy.  

- Crank

@harmonyards posted:

That is great you’re happy with the set, that’s what the hobby is all about!……however, for dedicated NYC modelers, they’re a country mile off, …..so if you’re not a NYC modeler, your comments regarding color don’t hold a whole lot of weight. Most guys/gals such as yourself that collect whatever tickles your fancy at the given moment, won’t really care if the color(s) are off or not, ….therefore, the conversation is more geared towards those that specifically model the NYC, …..3 rail scale modeling is a thing, and some of us ( a lot more than ya think ) want some level of accuracy,…..

Pat

so if you’re not a NYC modeler, your comments regarding color don’t hold a whole lot of weight. Most guys/gals such as yourself that collect whatever tickles your fancy at the given moment, won’t really care if the color(s) are off or not, ….therefore, the conversation is more geared towards those that specifically model the NY

Actually, I don't buy "whatever tickles my fancy" lol.

I do care about accuracy, and I have passed on engines/sets before because of it, but the mistake was made and this is what this set currently is.  I have called out Lionel about these color issues before.  But in the past decade I have yet to see any change from Lionel to always make sure colors are accurate.  This is not a new issue.  It is always hit or miss.   These posts come up every time they release a product.

The set has been made.   It's not changing at this point.   Maybe next time.

"It does appear that they don't really care about doing things right, just about doing things for the Lionel collectors to buy.  Remember their slogan,  It'll sell, its Lionel!"

How about giving them the benefit of the doubt?  Perhaps they found others more credible than your favored expert, for some reason, or had different data to support their choices?  We all know that one can find photographic evidence to support a wide range of patterns and colors for no longer extant locos and rolling stock/passenger cars.  Ryan Kunkle is likely involved in most of these decisions and he is very much a three rail scale sort of person.  The contempt, cynicism and ridicule expressed on these issues does nothing to improve the hobby or the products in most instances.  Even if one is correct, the tone of the criticism often tends to discredit the truth being expressed.  Happens in science and medicine all the time, by the way.

@Landsteiner posted:

"It does appear that they don't really care about doing things right, just about doing things for the Lionel collectors to buy.  Remember their slogan,  It'll sell, its Lionel!"

How about giving them the benefit of the doubt?  Perhaps they found others more credible than your favored expert, for some reason, or had different data to support their choices?  We all know that one can find photographic evidence to support a wide range of patterns and colors for no longer extant locos and rolling stock/passenger cars.  Ryan Kunkle is likely involved in most of these decisions and he is very much a three rail scale sort of person.  The contempt, cynicism and ridicule expressed on these issues does nothing to improve the hobby or the products in most instances.

First off, Ryan Kunkle is an advid HO guy, ……second, if they didn’t believe us on any of the colors, all they had to do is jog right over to the NYCHS web site and pull up all the information they want on CENTURY colors, as there’s even SAMPLES!!!!…..So what else ya got?

Pat

They should have represented the set as a Fantasy paint scheme because it’s not even close to being right

"So what else ya got?"

A distinct taste of sour grapes? . Seriously, my main point is that shooting the messenger (in this case,  Lionel as manufacturer), as opposed to civil, factual critiques, are generally non-productive, and unlikely to convince the unconverted. If one seems over the top and lacking in civility, one has already shot the messenger (one's self).

The fact that Ryan is an HO modeler should not affect his judgement about colors or patterns, which should be the same in HO, except perhaps too small to see .

@20centuryhudson posted:

They should have represented the set as a Fantasy paint scheme because it’s not even close to being right

There's nothing "fantasy" about this; the cars have been built and painted, the colors are incorrect, and the money has left the customers' wallets.

With today's technology, getting colors wrong to this degree in inexcusable. I can take a color sample down to my local Sherwin-Williams or NAPA auto parts store, and they can match it, even if it isn't a color they sell. It shouldn't be that difficult to get the colors right the first time, but as my 8th grade math teacher used to say, "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over."

I didn't buy this set, but I feel bad for those who did and are disappointed with the outcome.

@Landsteiner posted:

"So what else ya got?"

A distinct taste of sour grapes? . Seriously, my main point is that shooting the messenger (in this case,  Lionel as manufacturer), as opposed to civil, factual critiques, are generally non-productive, and unlikely to convince the unconverted. If one seems over the top and lacking in civility, one has already shot the messenger (one's self).

The fact that Ryan is an HO modeler should not affect his judgement about colors or patterns, which should be the same in HO, except perhaps too small to see .

They were handed the colors as a gift!!……Crank’s not the only one who knows folks who offered up their models to HELP them!!….I agree, beating it dead isn’t going to solve the problem, but for heaven’s sake, ….what happened, and what is the problem!? ….who said “ that looks great!!….roll with it”…….I mean, I get it, they certainly don’t have the bandwidth to entertain every Tom, Dick, & Harry that comes across the pike and says here’s what the colors are, but this should’ve been a no brainer for them….they have the research material in their own archives!….all they had to do is look under “S” for Smithsonian??…..no??…

Pat

"what happened, and what is the problem!? "

No idea, but reading this thread, if I'm Ryan Kunkle, I'm probably not engaging publicly.  Can't say as I blame him.  Reading social media and hearing a number of remarkably hostile and/or abusive comments probably doesn't incline a company to respond is my thought.

If 10-20% or more of their customers returned their product as unacceptable, that would get attention.  The fact is that this doesn't happen often, so they know that very few of their customers care much about what is apparently a clear hanging offense to some . 

@harmonyards posted:

They were handed the colors as a gift!!……Crank’s not the only one who knows folks who offered up their models to HELP them!!….I agree, beating it dead isn’t going to solve the problem, but for heaven’s sake, ….what happened, and what is the problem!? ….who said “ that looks great!!….roll with it”…….I mean, I get it, they certainly don’t have the bandwidth to entertain every Tom, Dick, & Harry that comes across the pike and says here’s what the colors are, but this should’ve been a no brainer for them….they have the research material in their own archives!….all they had to do is look under “S” for Smithsonian??…..no??…

Pat

I agree........beating it dead isn't going to solve the problem. What will solve the problem is if everyone who bought these cars sends them back for a refund. When the money starts flowing in the opposite direction than they are used to and they choke on their supplies, that will get their attention. Well, it should.

Largely the dealers get left holding the bag and being stuck in the middle--

@Eccentric Crank Excellent.

To put some context to what is being said about things being offered, yes, that is true as I myself talked about a different item of which I am not an expert on in any way or shape, but I found something that had bearing on the model at hand. Granted it wasn't the look of it, but the sound.

While the sound is else entirely, it still does matter as much as the colors, and everything else we are talking about. I know we have talked about accuracy, and there have been big slip ups that only those that know because they have(or had) firsthand knowledge of the real deal, or we're aquatinted with someone who knew. I turn my eyes to Hot Water because he was trying to explain to someone who didn't want to listen about the whistle not being even close to what was on the real thing. The other thing was the other whistles which also were not on the real deal. I know some people would let that slide with some of the models that come to their hands, heck, I did because what do I know.

Point here is that we have folks that know what is what, offered help, and the help was taken for whatever it was worth. That should be something that would make a person proud, that what they offered was very good advice/facts/you name it.

With that being said, just like I said it right there, how do you think that makes that person feel? Just about the same as having a model that should be a shining light of what once was, but has not come close. The people who offered now may feel like what they say is worthless. Well, I don't think so, not in my book. I do value what they have to say, and heck yeah what they have already said.

If the model is to your liking, regardless of inaccuracies, then you are all good. If it isn't, well, you have options much like we have seen countless times already.

This seems to be getting down to one thing above all. Name. That is not a good thing to stick with if you don't have something else to go with it.

Pat will tell you, I'm asking him to do what he does best, make more Hudson's. I think my catalog days are very nearly over, especially when I missed the original Dreyfuss offering years ago(I did get the engine recently), and now here we are.

"Ring ring ring", another old Hudson out there for sale on the secondhand market. @harmonyards hear that Pat, another one coming your way. 👍

@20centuryhudson posted:

Largely the dealers get left holding the bag and being stuck in the middle--

In no way would I leave my dealer hanging. I'll just have to get those to the Harmon Shops.

Almost 200 posts and I don't think anyone has tagged Ryan or Dave yet. Maybe they'll chime in at some point - never know.

Another interior question The cars come with some white sinks and toilets  Is this correct or should they be stainless steel silver  ? Any help on accurate interior colors would be greatly appreciated

Going to shoot from the hip and assume they draw all these engines in CAD and apply the color that is noted on the CAD drawings. I would be very surprised if the factory was sending physical paint samples to Concord for approval. No way they would be approving colors this off. Maybe they are in a rush to get these things out to get a return on investment for the r&d time. Who knows… its hard to believe they would spend so much time in designing tooling, mechanical, and electrical components to fall short on the paint. I would be very interested to see each step of the process.

"Perhaps they found others more credible than your favored expert."

Yes, the Real Housewives of New Jersey.

- Crank

There are a million pictures and tons of videos not to mention their own Smithsonian set even ggd 1938 set and as mentioned help from our resident NYC experts—it’s absolutely inexcusable to botch such an iconic set— as I have said it would have been just as easy to get it right as wrong— and of course the engine striping and color will be equally wrong

There is obviously an abundance of passion for this set.  It was obvious that Lionel knew that as well other wise why feature the engine on the cover of the 2023 catalog?  

Lionel seems to big on secrecy or at least silence when it comes to anything other than promoting the next preorder period.

Fortunately I cancelled my order for this set shortly after I saw the production sample of the Dreyfus Hudson looking as pale as a ghost on Ryan's video.

I now stick almost exclusively with select fantasy/what if schemes from Lionel if only to avoid the angst expressed in this thread.

At these price points inexcusable.

The more pictures I look at, the more I can see this both ways. Is this painted closer to what the 20th Century Limited looked after a year more than it did right after being painted?

This doesn't look dark gray. Also, the stripes look dang near black - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited#/media/File:Test_run_of_streamlined_20th_Century_Limited_1938.jpg

Again pretty light with very dark stripes - https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CTR_NYC_38Century-scaled.jpg

The one in the middle looks clean and again pretty light gray - https://live.staticflickr.com/...792_9b69a242c9_b.jpg

A little darker gray and the stripe is lighter - https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2

Somewhere in between - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...244723?adppopup=true

From the world fair and this looks very light - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...526043?adppopup=true

Darker gray - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...913450?adppopup=true

I can understand the argument of this is what colors it should have been painted based on info. I can also understand looking at pictures and saying this is what actually looked like. 

@GregK posted:

Almost 200 posts and I don't think anyone has tagged Ryan or Dave yet. Maybe they'll chime in at some point - never know.

I can answer that easily. The last time someone tagged Ryan in a post to try and discuss the item, it brokedown into a post that got deleted. It was sad, not because of Ryan's response, but how people were talking or talking down to him. Needless to say the moderators closed down the topic. Ryan I would wager wouldn't respond as the post that got shut down, he said something about why he doesn't come on here much. There I can't blame him. If you want to have a substantive conversation, that can be done privately and no yelling or such.

Dave would be in the same sort of territory, and I wouldn't blame him for not popping in as it isn't something to do with the products operation or not functioning properly. Dave wouldn't be responsible for the colors, but if the wheels kept coming off as soon as track power was applied or something where the lights blew up.

@SuperChief posted:

The more pictures I look at, the more I can see this both ways. Is this painted closer to what the 20th Century Limited looked after a year more than it did right after being painted?

This doesn't look dark gray. Also, the stripes look dang near black - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited#/media/File:Test_run_of_streamlined_20th_Century_Limited_1938.jpg

Again pretty light with very dark stripes - https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CTR_NYC_38Century-scaled.jpg

The one in the middle looks clean and again pretty light gray - https://live.staticflickr.com/...792_9b69a242c9_b.jpg

A little darker gray and the stripe is lighter - https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2

Somewhere in between - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...244723?adppopup=true

From the world fair and this looks very light - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...526043?adppopup=true

Darker gray - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...913450?adppopup=true

I can understand the argument of this is what colors it should have been painted based on info. I can also understand looking at pictures and saying this is what actually looked like.

When Lionel set out to paint the Smithsonian 1938 Century train set, they went through a lot of research to find the color that was used. Based off of formula, ….not B&W photos, not “well it looks lighter here, & darker there” ……that doesn’t work. Research was the key to success, …..as we also did very recently digging up this formula my DuPont rep ( who BTW is 81 years young and still doing the game ) found. When we mixed the formula, I brought the can home, and set the wet lid right next to a Smithsonian boiler shell, and got weak in the knees, ….****** if he didn’t find it!!!!………..Don’t get me wrong, if y’all can justify it your brain, by all means, enjoy, and hear me no more,…..but the gray they got on this train set now is the exact shade of gray primer.

Pat

@SuperChief posted:

The more pictures I look at, the more I can see this both ways. Is this painted closer to what the 20th Century Limited looked after a year more than it did right after being painted?

This doesn't look dark gray. Also, the stripes look dang near black - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited#/media/File:Test_run_of_streamlined_20th_Century_Limited_1938.jpg

Again pretty light with very dark stripes - https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CTR_NYC_38Century-scaled.jpg

The one in the middle looks clean and again pretty light gray - https://live.staticflickr.com/...792_9b69a242c9_b.jpg

A little darker gray and the stripe is lighter - https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2

Somewhere in between - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...244723?adppopup=true

From the world fair and this looks very light - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...526043?adppopup=true

Darker gray - https://www.gettyimages.ie/det...913450?adppopup=true

I can understand the argument of this is what colors it should have been painted based on info. I can also understand looking at pictures and saying this is what actually looked like.

We also went with this over colorized photos on something else, and as Pat says, pictures that are black and white, really don't give us what we are looking at. I think I stated about the colorized photos, that it depended on the negative, which isn't going to be quite accurate regardless. It would be close, but that would be about it. Reason is obvious, limitations. As Pat says, the formula is what would be to go by as it is the recipe for success. "Stir for five minutes, mix in the lead, stir in a portion of this, stir in a portion of that..." Wala.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I can answer that easily. The last time someone tagged Ryan in a post to try and discuss the item, it brokedown into a post that got deleted. It was sad, not because of Ryan's response, but how people were talking or talking down to him. Needless to say the moderators closed down the topic. Ryan I would wager wouldn't respond as the post that got shut down, he said something about why he doesn't come on here much. There I can't blame him. If you want to have a substantive conversation, that can be done privately and no yelling or such.

Dave would be in the same sort of territory, and I wouldn't blame him for not popping in as it isn't something to do with the products operation or not functioning properly. Dave wouldn't be responsible for the colors, but if the wheels kept coming off as soon as track power was applied or something where the lights blew up.

Agree 100%, & couple that to the fact that the actual number of NYC modelers that have made a stink about this is such a small percentage it ain’t worth the time to just come on here and get heckled ….So, no, it ain’t happening, and I don’t blame him either,….Sadly, the big losers are us die hard NYC fans, and Phil’s store smack dab in the heart of where the mighty Central roamed!…..at this point, we’re shouting at the rain, …..game, set, match,….

Pat

My $0.02, FWIW from someone who is heavily invested in Legacy engines and related rolling stock: Lionel does NOT principally differentiate itself on accuracy to the prototypes, though occasionally they do quite well in that department.  On the contrary, they seem to want to make and sell products that maximize sales and adoptance of their (proprietary) control systems and all of the advanced operating features that come with those (whistle steam, swinging bells, wheel slip, etc.), and then sell a number of versions and liveries of a single prototype using the same tooling -- some prototypical, some purely fantasy.  All that stuff is admittedly very cool for operators, and of course gives Lionel different revenue streams from a single set of tooling.  E.g., the Halloween and Christmas-themed engines and cars are apparently huge sellers and cost just as much as the prototypical models.

It sure sounds like in this case, all the historical paint research was already done and even freely provided to them, but they didn't use it.  It either slipped thru the gaps, which is possible, or someone there made a conscious decision to NOT use it for some reason.  I'll wager this second scenario is what happened, and it has nothing to do with what was provided not being accurate.  I see artists do this all the time when reproducing their own work for sale -- e.g., "print me another 100 copies, but make them a little more blue-green this time."  In general, people tend to be attracted to brighter, more saturated (toy-like?) colors.  It's conceivable someone there felt the colors they ended up using on this latest version versus what was provided would sell better for whatever reason.  As much as I appreciate nerding out over the road-specific rivets and precise colors, and personally applaud the work done by the NYC gurus on this forum and elsewhere to get things as accurate as possible, the reality is that most people don't care as long as the train looks nice and pretty to them.  That's not a problem to me unless the train was marketed as being highly accurate and turned out not to be.

@BlueFeather posted:

My $0.02, FWIW from someone who is heavily invested in Legacy engines and related rolling stock: Lionel does NOT principally differentiate itself on accuracy to the prototypes, though occasionally they do quite well in that department.  On the contrary, they seem to want to make and sell products that maximize sales and adoptance of their (proprietary) control systems and all of the advanced operating features that come with those (whistle steam, swinging bells, wheel slip, etc.), and then sell a number of versions and liveries of a single prototype using the same tooling -- some prototypical, some purely fantasy.  All that stuff is admittedly very cool for operators, and of course gives Lionel different revenue streams from a single set of tooling.  E.g., the Halloween and Christmas-themed engines and cars are apparently huge sellers and cost just as much as the prototypical models.

It sure sounds like in this case, all the historical paint research was already done and even freely provided to them, but they didn't use it.  It either slipped thru the gaps, which is possible, or someone there made a conscious decision to NOT use it for some reason.  I'll wager this second scenario is what happened, and is has nothing to do with what was provided not being accurate.  I see artists do this all the time when reproducing their own work for sale -- e.g., "print me another 100 copies, but make them a little more blue-green this time."  In general, people tend to be attracted to brighter, more saturated (toy-like?) colors.  It's conceivable someone there felt the colors they ended up using on this latest version versus what was provided would sell better for whatever reason.  As much as I appreciate nerding out over the road-specific rivets and precise colors, and personally applaud the work done by the NYC gurus on this forum and elsewhere to get things as accurate as possible, the reality is that most people don't care as long as the train looks nice and pretty to them.  That's not a problem to me unless the train was marketed as being highly accurate and turned out not to be.

As well as their own too. They don't jump in without a bit of research in anything. While someone could yell at me about colors being wrong, they do have to look at some things. I know Ryan and I had talked about one of the prior models from a few years ago. They knew that the placement of the whistle on the cardboard cutout model was not in the right spot, but they actually do get it where it was supposed to be, even though the engine as a whole wasn't quite the same as the real deal. They did for their part, stick the whistle where it should have been if it was indeed the exact same model. I want to say it was a Southern engine, not 4501 something else. Color was still off, but at least the whistle was in the right spot, and I also believe the actual sound of the whistle was correct(if I remember correctly).

@BlueFeather posted:

My $0.02, FWIW from someone who is heavily invested in Legacy engines and related rolling stock: Lionel does NOT principally differentiate itself on accuracy to the prototypes, though occasionally they do quite well in that department.  On the contrary, they seem to want to make and sell products that maximize sales and adoptance of their (proprietary) control systems and all of the advanced operating features that come with those (whistle steam, swinging bells, wheel slip, etc.), and then sell a number of versions and liveries of a single prototype using the same tooling -- some prototypical, some purely fantasy.  All that stuff is admittedly very cool for operators, and of course gives Lionel different revenue streams from a single set of tooling.  E.g., the Halloween and Christmas-themed engines and cars are apparently huge sellers and cost just as much as the prototypical models.

It sure sounds like in this case, all the historical paint research was already done and even freely provided to them, but they didn't use it.  It either slipped thru the gaps, which is possible, or someone there made a conscious decision to NOT use it for some reason.  I'll wager this second scenario is what happened, and it has nothing to do with what was provided not being accurate.  I see artists do this all the time when reproducing their own work for sale -- e.g., "print me another 100 copies, but make them a little more blue-green this time."  In general, people tend to be attracted to brighter, more saturated (toy-like?) colors.  It's conceivable someone there felt the colors they ended up using on this latest version versus what was provided would sell better for whatever reason.  As much as I appreciate nerding out over the road-specific rivets and precise colors, and personally applaud the work done by the NYC gurus on this forum and elsewhere to get things as accurate as possible, the reality is that most people don't care as long as the train looks nice and pretty to them.  That's not a problem to me unless the train was marketed as being highly accurate and turned out not to be.

Well said!!

Pat

@BlueFeather posted:

My $0.02, FWIW from someone who is heavily invested in Legacy engines and related rolling stock: Lionel does NOT principally differentiate itself on accuracy to the prototypes, though occasionally they do quite well in that department.  On the contrary, they seem to want to make and sell products that maximize sales and adoptance of their (proprietary) control systems and all of the advanced operating features that come with those (whistle steam, swinging bells, wheel slip, etc.), and then sell a number of versions and liveries of a single prototype using the same tooling -- some prototypical, some purely fantasy.  All that stuff is admittedly very cool for operators, and of course gives Lionel different revenue streams from a single set of tooling.  E.g., the Halloween and Christmas-themed engines and cars are apparently huge sellers and cost just as much as the prototypical models.

It sure sounds like in this case, all the historical paint research was already done and even freely provided to them, but they didn't use it.  It either slipped thru the gaps, which is possible, or someone there made a conscious decision to NOT use it for some reason.  I'll wager this second scenario is what happened, and it has nothing to do with what was provided not being accurate.  I see artists do this all the time when reproducing their own work for sale -- e.g., "print me another 100 copies, but make them a little more blue-green this time."  In general, people tend to be attracted to brighter, more saturated (toy-like?) colors.  It's conceivable someone there felt the colors they ended up using on this latest version versus what was provided would sell better for whatever reason.  As much as I appreciate nerding out over the road-specific rivets and precise colors, and personally applaud the work done by the NYC gurus on this forum and elsewhere to get things as accurate as possible, the reality is that most people don't care as long as the train looks nice and pretty to them.  That's not a problem to me unless the train was marketed as being highly accurate and turned out not to be.

That is probably how it happened.  Like with the Lionel SP Lark set from a couple years ago where, instead of tooling up the correct 3-unit articulated diner/kitchen/lounge, Lionel offered a two car non-articulated diner based on a PRR prototype, with a description in the catalog that it “approximated” the prototype.  That was a conscious cost-saving decision to get it wrong.

As for colors, the Louisville and Nashville E6  and E8 Legacy diesels from a few years ago were a ridiculously bright blue, when the prototype was a very dark blue.  That was probably another conscious decision to get it wrong by making those locomotives such a bright and shiny blue, and toy-like to maybe sell better.

@harmonyards posted:

The recently released Aberdeen Carolina & Western trains they produced are supposedly spot on, ….I recall a video they did where they had a meet & greet with one of the clubs, or organizations and they went into the art department, and touted on their extensive research to get the colors right, …..and I don’t see where they made any mistakes there, ….I’m not a Aberdeen, Carolina & Western guy, so I can’t say with authority whether they’re right or wrong, …sure look pretty close??….take the YouTubers off the table, they’re so full of sugar & spice & everything’s nice we’ll never get a straight answer from that ……

Pat

As an ACWR fan, and someone that has seen the equipment in person, they did get those colors spot on, even redoing the 18" heavyweights when they were wrong.  The only "errors" were on equipment that had not been painted yet when Lionel cataloged it.

My understanding is that Lionel worked very closely with ACWR to get everything right, and it helps that they are local.  I wonder if the licensing agreement had strict controls for colors, and perhaps whatever permissions Lionel needs for historical equipment does not have such strict controls.

I assume good faith on the part of Lionel.  I don't think they are intentionally using the wrong colors.  I do think that they are letting out product in the incorrect colors.  Fixing mistakes is costly, and if people are still buying it and the color is plausible (even if just barely) it makes business sense to let it out the door if you can.

In this case, research shows that the color is wrong.  For the high end models that these are, it is entirely fair to expect better accuracy.  It's also likely that many NYC fans that bought this set have not done the full research, have only seen the black and white photos, and don't realize that the real thing had much more interesting and deep colors than the primer grey and black they are getting.

@PSM posted:

As an ACWR fan, and someone that has seen the equipment in person, they did get those colors spot on, even redoing the 18" heavyweights when they were wrong.  The only "errors" were on equipment that had not been painted yet when Lionel cataloged it.

My understanding is that Lionel worked very closely with ACWR to get everything right, and it helps that they are local.  I wonder if the licensing agreement had strict controls for colors, and perhaps whatever permissions Lionel needs for historical equipment does not have such strict controls.

I assume good faith on the part of Lionel.  I don't think they are intentionally using the wrong colors.  I do think that they are letting out product in the incorrect colors.  Fixing mistakes is costly, and if people are still buying it and the color is plausible (even if just barely) it makes business sense to let it out the door if you can.

In this case, research shows that the color is wrong.  For the high end models that these are, it is entirely fair to expect better accuracy.  It's also likely that many NYC fans that bought this set have not done the full research, have only seen the black and white photos, and don't realize that the real thing had much more interesting and deep colors than the primer grey and black they are getting.

I’d agree 100% that they ( Lionel ) did not get the colors wrong on the Century on purpose, nor did they do it with malice in mind, …..but it begs the question, where’s the break in the chain? …or like I said earlier, is there a chain? …..they obviously have a way to prove products, Ryan had a production sample on the table when he did the video, and when I saw that, I knew we were in for a rough ride way back when…..surely somebody said something!!…..it just begs the question, I know it’s too late for this set, but how can we move forward? …..I for one will NEVER pre-order anything from Lionel because of this …..it’s a 50/50 gamble ……who holds the cards is what I’d like to know,….is it the factory? …..that says here’s what you’re getting….like it or lump it, ….or is it when Ryan had the sample on his table, that is the production model, from the container full of product, and when they cut the seal open “ SURPRISE! “ …..in a nut shell, ….somebody at that place in Concord had to know this set was way off, ….whether they said something or not, that’s another story…..

Pat

Slightly off-topic but another relevant data point: I received my 21" Lionel UP cars to go with my new Big Boy.  They look great but when coupled to Lionel 21" UP cars from a previous run, they're slightly (as in, a hair) darker than the old ones (both the Corporate Gray and Armour Yellow).  They both look good, and they both look like Armour Yellow and UP Corporate Gray, but the new ones are a little more, shall we say, "saturated."  I actually think this is a little more (accidentally) prototypical as cars get painted at different times and even with the best, most modern shops, that paint may be a little bit off -- and more recently painted cars of course look a little "fresher."  Just another observation on Lionel passenger car paint, and clearly a different situation than what happened with this NYC Century run . . .

Lionel ought to ship the set and engine back to be repainted— and eat the cost— it’s what I would do because in the long run it would generate good will and restore trust and keep customers long term — will they do that — not a snowballs chance in ****

@BlueFeather posted:

Slightly off-topic but another relevant data point: I received my 21" Lionel UP cars to go with my new Big Boy.  They look great but when coupled to Lionel 21" UP cars from a previous run, they're slightly (as in, a hair) darker than the old ones (both the Corporate Gray and Armour Yellow).  They both look good, and they both look like Armour Yellow and UP Corporate Gray, but the new ones are a little more, shall we say, "saturated."  I actually think this is a little more (accidentally) prototypical as cars get painted at different times and even with the best, most modern shops, that paint may be a little bit off -- and more recently painted cars of course look a little "fresher."  Just another observation on Lionel passenger car paint, and clearly a different situation than what happened with this NYC Century run . . .

And for me, I’d be fine with that too, …..this happened on the railroads all the time, …even on the Century, ….as cars or locomotives were damaged, and required repaint, I’m sure the local vendor of the day got the job to match the paint as best as they could,……the 10 Dreyfus locomotives came out of Alco Schenectady probably all wearing very close to the same shade of gray ….they were built one after the other ….in ‘39, 5344 traded in her Vanderbilt ball gown for Dreyfus shrouding at Collinwood (done in house)  by NYC craftsmen for Mercury Service….to be sure the colors weren’t  a spot on match….but “reasonably close” ….

Pat

Please help an interior detailer out What are the proper colors of the interior of these cars -? I can!t will not try to fix the exterior color of these cars but I do want to try to do a more accurate job  color wise on the interiors Thanks  in advance for any and all help

This is as big a fail as the girls set but at least the girls set was supposed to be pink and baby blue

I myself wouldn't think that Lionel is intentionally getting colors wrong either. After the Polar Express fiasco that enraged a ton of folks, they put some sort of measures in place to better handle some issues. Now with that said has that sort of gone away to a degree? Seeing the T&P Ten Wheeler will make you think about it. Heck, it is just one of those things where we can say all sorts of stuff, but in the end the answers would be easier to determine throwing a bunch of pencils in the air and see how many points in one direction to determine what the real answer is.

I want accuracy, and that is not quite on the mark this go around. I really am curious what the engines look like, and I know Steve Nelson will be getting his shipment in soon, so it is just a matter of time before we know what they look like.

Regardless, the Harmon Shops are open, and that's what it's going to be.

Would be rather amusing if they got the color and striping right on the engine— but judging from Ryan’s video they are likely to be just as bad as the passenger cars— really is quite unbelievable— will never preorder from Lionel again— Lionel is too unpredictable could be an absolute smashing winner like the class A or a real dud—this was a slam dunk can’t miss set and yet they found a way to blow it— with not a peep from them to make it right

@FJI posted:

Please help an interior detailer out What are the proper colors of the interior of these cars -? I can!t will not try to fix the exterior color of these cars but I do want to try to do a more accurate job  color wise on the interiors Thanks  in advance for any and all help

Have you looked into joining the NYCHS? ……you can get all the information you’re looking for on there!!…..ask on here, and you’ll get 10 different answers from 10 different people…

Pat

@20centuryhudson posted:

Would be rather amusing if they got the color and striping right on the engine— but judging from Ryan’s video they are likely to be just as bad as the passenger cars— really is quite unbelievable— will never preorder from Lionel again— Lionel is too unpredictable could be an absolute smashing winner like the class A or a real dud—this was a slam dunk can’t miss set and yet they found a way to blow it— with not a peep from them to make it right

Sadly, ….in the giant bucket that is Lionel, folks like us are barely a wet spot,….we don’t even show up on radar…..😔

In the meantime, ….I’m stirring paint,……

Pat