Lionel 21” NYC 20th Century Passenger cars are starting to arrive

Is this an appropriate time to interject and see if anyone is selling these cars at a huge discount so I can repaint them into Penn Central????  

Well, the bay has started having the Dreyfuss(new ones) show up, but it has the catalog pictures only.

I guess that maybe by the end of the week or start of the next we should see some forum sponsors and other big stores indicating that these are in. So, we will finally see what the thing looks like regardless of it is correct or not.

Many years ago I set out to model the NYC passenger fleet. Way back then you were limited as to what was available as far as cars. Hudson’s were plentiful including the Dreyfuss and ESE. I purchased the early Proto 2 offerings and cars from both MTH and K-Line. My interests have changed over the years. One thing I’ve always done. Is when I buy anything. Is to seek out books on what I’m buying or even after I buy it. Not to nitpick the product. Just to gather information and the history of it. Just something I enjoy doing. I purchased the MTH 20th Century set seeing I knew the paint would be a match to the Dreyfuss. The colors were kind of drab and the cars weren’t exactly close to the prototype. But it was a matched set. I bought all 7 cars offered. 2 were diners which I found was correct. Someone did a bit of homework.

I don’t model HO. But if I was really into passenger trains as a focal point for a layout. Rapido Trains offers some incredible looking cars with over the top detail and I would certainly think of switching scales. If they can do it as far as research to the prototype.  I just don’t see why Lionel can’t.

For those that want to do some reading on the history of the 20th Century Ltd.  . These are 2 excellent books. They both show the same color picture of the Dreyfuss and cars in 1940. Apparently color photos are rare as this is the only one shown.

Just a reminder.....

We have the full 8-car sets in stock now.  A few more complete sets has just become available.  All are conveniently available and ordered on our website at:

(4-Car Set) https://jrjunction.com/product...d-passenger-car-set/

(2-Car Set) https://jrjunction.com/product...passenger-2-car-set/

(2-Car Set) https://jrjunction.com/product...mited-diner-car-set/

Don't miss out getting the entire set with a matching locomotive arriving soon!

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, the bay has started having the Dreyfuss(new ones) show up, but it has the catalog pictures only.

I guess that maybe by the end of the week or start of the next we should see some forum sponsors and other big stores indicating that these are in. So, we will finally see what the thing looks like regardless of it is correct or not.

There are definitely people that have them now. Shouldn’t be long before the photos and videos are up.

@harmonyards posted:

I’d agree 100% that they ( Lionel ) did not get the colors wrong on the Century on purpose, nor did they do it with malice in mind, …..but it begs the question, where’s the break in the chain? …or like I said earlier, is there a chain? …..they obviously have a way to prove products, Ryan had a production sample on the table when he did the video, and when I saw that, I knew we were in for a rough ride way back when…..surely somebody said something!!…..it just begs the question, I know it’s too late for this set, but how can we move forward? …..I for one will NEVER pre-order anything from Lionel because of this …..it’s a 50/50 gamble ……who holds the cards is what I’d like to know,….is it the factory? …..that says here’s what you’re getting….like it or lump it, ….or is it when Ryan had the sample on his table, that is the production model, from the container full of product, and when they cut the seal open “ SURPRISE! “ …..in a nut shell, ….somebody at that place in Concord had to know this set was way off, ….whether they said something or not, that’s another story…..

Pat

I think that there are a few possibilities of where the break is occurring, and I don't know if we on the outside will ever get a peak at what the real process is.

In theory, 1) Ryan+team select the color, 2) send it to the factory in some manner, 3) get a sample back, 4) approve or disprove the sample, 5) receive the production version, 6) review the production version, 7) release the production version to dealers.

We can assume that in step 1, they are trying their best.  Perhaps they are on too tight of a timeline or have other constraints impacting the selection.

Step 2 seems to be a potential stumbling block, but if I remember correctly they have used a fairly standard color defining process (I forget what it's called) to tell the factory what they want.

Is step 3+4 occurring, or are they just getting a photo? or nothing at all? This seems like a step that could be cut for potential cost/time saving, and would be disappointing if that's the case.

Clearly, on some models step 6 has occurred and they have sent them back.  See ACWR heavyweights and Strasburg 90.  Why isn't it happening on everything? Does this go back all the way to an error in step 1, or are some products just not enough of a priority?

In my opinion, it seems that the most likely issues, and most likely places to fix, are either step 1 or steps 3+4.  Either way, it feels like the kind of thing that is being influenced by executives' time tables and spreadsheets more than it is Ryan + team's ability or intentions.

Maybe there are gremlins over there. Everything is right off the top for samples, gremlins get in, change the entire production line and it isn't caught until here. Who can say.

first pictures are starting to show of the engine and as expected it looks almost light blue/lightt gray and the striping is wrong--a waste of alot of money--I wont commit to anything Lionel sight unseen again---its really infuriating they screwed this up so badly

@20centuryhudson posted:

first pictures are starting to show of the engine and as expected it looks almost light blue/lightt gray and the striping is wrong--a waste of alot of money--I wont commit to anything Lionel sight unseen again---its really infuriating they screwed this up so badly

I saw on the At Last topic someone posted a link to someone who posted a single photo, which on my phone really doesn't show me much other than the light grey color we already knew. It is of the PT tender either 5445 or 5447 I believe. Can't make out anything on the tender in that picture because the engine hogs all of it. The NYC plate on the front looks like a sharp sky blue or something maybe in that tone. IDK what it's supposed to be though.

Either way, I am going to enjoy the engine and cars.

@PSU1980 posted:

Either way, I am going to enjoy the engine and cars.

Absolutely!!….put your rose colored glasses on and enjoy!!……

now seriously, yes!…enjoy them as you see fit!…that’s the beauty of this hobby!!

Pat

Here is a video of a 3rd rail 1938 Dreyfuss I had upgraded beautifully by Roy Aydelotte -that’s close to the right color in my opinion although some say it should be a bit darker— night and day literally between this and the new Lionel one

@20centuryhudson posted:

Here is a video of a 3rd rail 1938 Dreyfuss I had upgraded beautifully by Roy Aydelotte -that’s close to the right color in my opinion although some say it should be a bit darker— night and day literally between this and the new Lionel one

Opinion only, 3rd Rail got it close, followed by the 6-28084 TMCC Hudson, then the last MTH 1940 set. The pinnacle being the Smithsonian,…..it’s the research that pays off,…

Pat

Hold on to your hats (wallets).   I saw the locomotive.  Frame and trucks painted back.  PT tender has a........blue stripe.  Engine is the same ghost gray as the cars.  The tender stripes do line up with the cars.  A nice matching train for Lionel collectors.  The black frame and trucks look funky and unfinished so maybe even the Lionel crowd may not like that.

- Crank

Lionel NYC Dreyfus 6-28084 LEGACY Upgrade-video 8-23-20

Here is a comparison, well, that is the 28084 Dreyfuss that Bruk converted for a customer. Why this one, because it shows it apart and gives good detailed look at the trucks which are grey, not black. To be fair to Lionel, in the catalog the trucks appear to be black or very close to it much like the cars trucks are.

I really hoped the new Lionel 21” cars would resemble even remotely close to a Williams Crown Edition brass Hudson I own.  Outside the obvious difference in paint, everything else about these Lionel passenger cars are wonderful.  Even the lack of skirts doesn’t really bother me.  Considering the issue with mismatched stripes on the new Legacy Dreyfuss locomotives, the thickness of these stripes are pretty good.  It’s really a shame the shades of gray and the blue stripe are way off.

@JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:

I really hoped the new Lionel 21” cars would resemble even remotely close to a Williams Crown Edition brass Hudson I own.  Outside the obvious difference in paint, everything else about these Lionel passenger cars are wonderful.  Even the lack of skirts doesn’t really bother me.  Considering the issue with mismatched stripes on the new Legacy Dreyfuss locomotives, the thickness of these stripes are pretty good.  It’s really a shame the shades of gray and the blue stripe are way off.

Which stripes are more 'correct' for the 1938 Phil? The thicker stripes on the passenger cars, or the thinner stripes on the tender?

@GregK posted:

Which stripes are more 'correct' for the 1938 Phil? The thicker stripes on the passenger cars, or the thinner stripes on the tender?

‘38 had thick center stripes on both the cars and the tender. ‘40 went to thinner inner stripes with white or silver(??) outer stripes on both. All PT tenders should have the ‘40 scheme as they came after the detail change. They never had blue stripes as some have reported on the Lionel PT tenders.

Pete

Pete

@GregK posted:

Which stripes are more 'correct' for the 1938 Phil? The thicker stripes on the passenger cars, or the thinner stripes on the tender?

I can answer that for Phil,….the tender Phil shows is from a Williams Masterpiece Dreyfus, …built around the same time as the Lionel Smithsonian, AND the Williams was built by the same exact vendor as the Smithsonian. So therefore, they’re practically sisters……paint wise, both the Williams & the Smithsonian are pretty much as accurate as one could hope for….So the stripes on the Williams tender  are indeed close, and correct….color and dimension….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I can answer that for Phil,….the tender Phil shows is from a Williams Masterpiece Dreyfus, …built around the same time as the Lionel Smithsonian, AND the Williams was built by the same exact vendor as the Smithsonian. So therefore, they’re practically sisters……paint wise, both the Williams & the Smithsonian are pretty much as accurate as one could hope for….So the stripes on the Williams tender  are indeed close, and correct….color and dimension….

Pat

It's really kind of crazy that they didn't have at least the 'regular' tenders match the thicker 1938 stripes. I don't get it.

Has anyone compared the color of the new Lionel cars with the restored 20th century cars now running between Penn Station NY and Albany?

In the FWIW column a little birdie just old me Golden Gate Depot will be announcing another run of their '38 and '40 20th Century cars.  Specifics to follow on the OGR back page ad.

This does nothing for y'all diehard Lionel or nothing fans but...

@rdunniii posted:

In the FWIW column a little birdie just old me Golden Gate Depot will be announcing another run of their '38 and '40 20th Century cars.  Specifics to follow on the OGR back page ad.

This does nothing for y'all diehard Lionel or nothing fans but...

But those will come with proper skirting, the correct window configurations, and floor plans.  Who would want that?

All kidding aside, I would like to see Lionel succeed when it comes to color matching more often.  The entire O hobby does better when we have less of these issues to fill the pages of this forum.

All these posts about never buying BTO unfortunately indicate a huge deficit in understanding the O scale marketplace.  Without it, there would be no new product.  While generic, I like the scale length Lionel cars and they make great "background" filler cars for the very specific ones that I want to stand out in my various passenger trains.  I'm up to about 20 or so in my collection and would buy more if they are offered in road names I'm looking to complete trains with. 

The '38 Century cars are certainly unfortunate.  I can think of several reasons why this happened, but I wasn't involved so I don't want to speculate.   

@GG1 4877 posted:

All kidding aside, I would like to see Lionel succeed when it comes to color matching more often.  The entire O hobby does better when we have less of these issues to fill the pages of this forum.

All these posts about never buying BTO unfortunately indicate a huge deficit in understanding the O scale marketplace.  Without it, there would be no new product.  While generic, I like the scale length Lionel cars and they make great "background" filler cars for the very specific ones that I want to stand out in my various passenger trains.  I'm up to about 20 or so in my collection and would buy more if they are offered in road names I'm looking to complete trains with.

The '38 Century cars are certainly unfortunate.  I can think of several reasons why this happened, but I wasn't involved so I don't want to speculate.   

An article in OGR, a social media video or interview, etc...anything along those lines with an explanation of how the O market works would be a nice feature for the community to understand. Especially coming from someone with an internal understanding of how these businesses operate. At the end of the day, we need each other right? I want to have trains to buy, but the manufacturers need a business model that works, too. A primer on the 'business of O scale' would be a cool feature somewhere...

There is nothing wrong with the BTO model as long as the manufacturer holds up their end of the deal.  Therein lies the problem as exemplified most recently by the 20th Century issues.

When instances of mechanical issues, and cosmetic issues start to occur more frequently it is reasonable for a consumer to consider opting out of BTO in order to get the attention of the manufacturer.

Did I 'hear' anyone state in this thread that they hope Lionel goes under?

The only thing I hear in this thread is that Lionel needs to be better.

If that plea goes unheeded, well that would be unfortunate.

Deleting threads when they go off course is commonplace here.  Personally I'm sick and tired of every Amtrak thread being deleted because the discussion quickly goes from being about Amtrak to being about the politics of Amtrak.

Fortunately politics aren't involved here, but acrimony is, and so is a lack of verifiable facts, which is also often the case with our Amtrak discussions.

This one is quickly following the same path.  Choose your words carefully, and think before putting your fingers in gear, or we'll lose this one too.  There's too much good information here to be throwing it away.

What's really infuriating is that this acrimony continues and is now in this thread after having successfully torpedoed the previous one.  I've never seen so many contentious comments build so quickly on a particular thread -- in any previous thread here on the OGR Forum.

The problem with color is that it's very subjective, especially when it comes to shades.  This is exacerbated by the fact that somewhere between 7 and 11% of adult males have a particular color blindness, otherwise known as Red-Green Color Vision Deficiency, myself included, that could come into play here, and they might not even know it.  Too many shades of both of these colors, although not all shades, show up as gray to me, and as a result heavily influence my impression of what gray is.  You may see red or green mixed in and changing the precise tint, perhaps even ever so slightly.  I can't.

Add in the fact that colors fade over time, whether on the side of a car, or printed in a book, or on reference paint chip, and also that for all their glory modern computers and phones are very bad at throwing accurately-colored pixels up on a screen, or printing them on paper.

I'm staying out of the discussion because of all of these things.

Yes, the color issue has been handled badly, but not because of an obvious technical mistake as we all assume.  It's because with color there's no easy way to placate everyone's desires at the same time due to all these barriers.

As a result will we be at this forever?  Probably.

But, does it have to get so heated?  No.

Patience.  Please keep this thread from being deleted.

Mike

My thoughts about how to preserve this thread. Opinions about color and designs are obviously reasonable. Accusing Lionel and its employees of bad faith and/or incompetence is not reasonable. Encouraging other customers to engage in actions that harm Lionel or its dealers is also not in the interests of the hobby.  Your own personal plans for not purchasing or returning to your dealer are fine.  Implying that those who don't share your beliefs are something less than virtuous or sane is not.   

OGR is the business of promoting the hobby and industry, not indulging the opinions of those who want to do harm to Lionel, OGR and the hobby, for whatever rationale,  based upon personal biases and preferences.  Stick to your opinion about the product, without abusive pejoratives or insinuations of bad behavior on the part of Lionel and other customers.

People seem to take disagreement as a personal attack in a lot of cases. As long as there isn't name calling/swearing/whatever I don't see the problem. Bad behavior by any manufacture should be noted, these issues are not a one off

@20centuryhudson posted:

There was nothing uncivil in the deleted thread it was a spirited discussion— which correctly pointed out the gross lack of attention to a basic detail and the misrepresentation in the catalog by L — oGR undoubtedly deleted the thread because it called onto the carpet rightly so an advertiser which I find quite disturbing

Suggestion: start a thread about the historical highlights on the painting of the Century. Base it on historical evidence, & facts. Use the measurements & etc. available from informational resources such as the hysterical society, …..do it in a context that’s informative about what it should be. Use your models as examples and explain the conclusions you draw off the evidence. Ask everyone to leave any comments about ANY model manufacturer at the door, and just use historical content as your guide. Then, everyone can formulate his/her own opinions, but be armed with the facts. I’d be more than happy to help. It would informative, entertaining, and chock full of useful information readers could use.

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Suggestion: start a thread about the historical highlights on the painting of the Century. Base it on historical evidence, & facts. Use the measurements & etc. available from informational resources such as the hysterical society, …..do it in a context that’s informative about what it should be. Use your models as examples and explain the conclusions you draw off the evidence. Ask everyone to leave any comments about ANY model manufacturer at the door, and just use historical content as your guide. Then, everyone can formulate his/her own opinions, but be armed with the facts. I’d be more than happy to help. It would informative, entertaining, and chock full of useful information readers could use.

Pat

Respectfully Pat I don’t think anyone would argue it’s way off for the 1938 scheme or any other scheme the central had— add to it the misalignment of the stripes—that was established—  it’s a bad job—I really was impressed with the class A and sang it’s praises— I’m not negative on everything — when L screws the pooch it should be freely discussed respectfully— and folks posted myself included photos of 3rd rail and the Smithsonian which our resident NYC folks say are the closest— 3K is not an insubstantial chunk of change one should expect a better job— and what’s the point of the forum if we can’t discuss models from any manufacturer plus or minus

@20centuryhudson posted:

Respectfully Pat I don’t think anyone would argue it’s way off for the 1938 scheme or any other scheme the central had— add to it the misalignment of the stripes—that was established—  it’s a bad job—I really was impressed with the class A and sang it’s praises— I’m not negative on everything — when L screws the pooch it should be freely discussed respectfully— and folks posted myself included photos of 3rd rail and the Smithsonian which our resident NYC folks say are the closest— 3K is not an insubstantial chunk of change one should expect a better job— and what’s the point of the forum if we can’t discuss models from any manufacturer plus or minus

The suggestion I made above, was only that, and would give us that enjoy modeling the NYC an avenue to discuss the painting of the Century in a historical context. Respectfully, like it or not, that certain manufacturer is a sponsor that keeps the lights on here. FWIW, ……I for one, enjoy discussing the historical accuracy you, and the others bring to the table …..

Pat

@Landsteiner posted:

My thoughts about how to preserve this thread. Opinions about color and designs are obviously reasonable. Accusing Lionel and its employees of bad faith and/or incompetence is not reasonable. Encouraging other customers to engage in actions that harm Lionel or its dealers is also not in the interests of the hobby.  Your own personal plans for not purchasing or returning to your dealer are fine.  Implying that those who don't share your beliefs are something less than virtuous or sane is not.   

OGR is the business of promoting the hobby and industry, not indulging the opinions of those who want to do harm to Lionel, OGR and the hobby, for whatever rationale,  based upon personal biases and preferences.  Stick to your opinion about the product, without abusive pejoratives or insinuations of bad behavior on the part of Lionel and other customers.

Well...I was out on this one and came home to a half dozen ugly and personal comments directed at me.  I did a little research and the reason why the thread was deleted is exactly what was said above.  One will not be allowed to accuse another of fraud, deceit, and other serious accusations on this forum.  We cover this in our TOS.  I am going to delete and or edit the comments in this thread that need it and if any of you decide to put them back up, you will be taking a long vacation from this forum.

The new Lionel Legacy scale Dreyfuss Hudson’s have finally arrived and ready to ship to you!  We have complete passenger sets available that compliment the locomotives.  Our discounted price on #5449 or #5452 is $1,529.99.  Purchase the entire train set with all eight cars for $3,128.96.

The 20th Century

• 1.5 oz. gin (Beefeater)
• 0.75 oz. Kina Lillet (no longer in production, substitute: Tempus Fugit Kina L'Aéro d'Or or Cocchi Americano)
• 0.75 oz. fresh-squeezed lemon juice
• 0.5 oz. crème de cacao blanc (Tempus Fugit, Giffard's, or Marie Brizzard)

Add ingredients to a Boston or cobbler shaker, add ice, shake hard until shaker is frosty, double strain into a chilled cocktail glass or coupe, garnish with a lemon twist.

Created in 1937 by C.A. Tuck in honor of the 20th Century Limited.

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

The 20th Century

• 1.5 oz. gin (Beefeater)
• 0.75 oz. Kina Lillet (no longer in production, substitute: Tempus Fugit Kina L'Aéro d'Or or Cocchi Americano)
• 0.75 oz. fresh-squeezed lemon juice
• 0.5 oz. crème de cacao blanc (Tempus Fugit, Giffard's, or Marie Brizzard)

Add ingredients to a Boston or cobbler shaker, add ice, shake hard until shaker is frosty, double strain into a chilled cocktail glass or coupe, garnish with a lemon twist.

Created in 1937 by C.A. Tuck in honor of the 20th Century Limited.

I must disagree, i.e. Beefeater gin, as ever since they lowered the proof from 94 to something in the 80s range (obviously attempting to save money), I now prefer Boodles London Dry gin (90.4 proof).

@Hot Water posted:

I must disagree, i.e. Beefeater gin, as ever since they lowered the proof from 94 to something in the 80s range (obviously attempting to save money), I now prefer Boodles London Dry gin (90.4 proof).

There is an obvious joke in here about the correct formula for a "20th Century" but I think we wore that topic out. 

Of course, with modern formulations, we must make substitutions to approximate the original.  I went there anyway.

@GG1 4877 posted:

There is an obvious joke in here about the correct formula for a "20th Century" but I think we wore that topic out. 

Of course, with modern formulations, we must make substitutions to approximate the original.  I went there anyway.

It isn't your fault.  You couldn't help yourself!

@Hot Water posted:

I must disagree, i.e. Beefeater gin, as ever since they lowered the proof from 94 to something in the 80s range (obviously attempting to save money), I now prefer Boodles London Dry gin (90.4 proof).

I have heard good things about Boodles, but haven't had it yet. I specified Beefeater because it's a solid, well-balanced, classic London dry gin. While the alchohol content may have been lowered, at 44%, it still has enough of a backbone. These characteristics allow it to present a reliably pleasant martini, if not iconic. More importantly, they make it an excellent gin for making cocktails. It makes its botanical presence known, but lets the combination of ingredients shine.