Lionel NYC Dreyfus 6-28084 LEGACY Upgrade-video 8-23-20

I can't wait to see how this comes out Bruk!

Yes,I'm very interested in this one too!

Doug

I'll be following along closely as I have the same locomotive and a Legacy version would be really cool!

It could be a drop in conversion if the gear ratios of the Dreyfuss and the Legacy ESE are the same. Might not be given the Dreyfuss is Korean made with inch dimensions and the ESE is Chinese made with metric dimensions. The only thing it would affect though is Legacy speed matching.

Pete

I'm considering something that Jon Z. mentioned to me, trying to repurpose my Chuff-Generator to serve as a Legacy tach sensor.  The stock Legacy has 60 pulses/rev, if I modified the software to trigger on either edge of the stripes, I could get away with around 30 stripes on the flywheel for similar gear ratios.  To zero in on the exact gear ratio, I'd simply make a custom tach tape with the desired number of stripes to match the speed.

I have a vested interested in this project since this my Dreyfuss.  I have to say that Bruk did a fantastic job on my Lionel N & W Class A (6-28052) going from TMCC to Legacy (the hooter whistle from the Y6b is perfect for the Class A).  Witnessing what was possible with the Class A, I had to ask if he was up to converting my Dreyfuss and PRR T1.  This will be fun to follow.

-Brian

Norton posted:

It could be a drop in conversion if the gear ratios of the Dreyfuss and the Legacy ESE are the same. Might not be given the Dreyfuss is Korean made with inch dimensions and the ESE is Chinese made with metric dimensions. The only thing it would affect though is Legacy speed matching.

Pete

They do have the same gear ratio 16:1 on both locos.

Id say its almost a “drop in” but its not at the same time. The mounting points for boards and the smoke units between them do not match at all. 

I figured that but still not bad compared to the other engines you have done. I suspect the hardest part will be swapping out the tach reader.

Will be adding whistle steam too? If so that will be a challenge.

Pete

Actually, with the Pittman motor, it shouldn't be that hard, there is already a Legacy board and flywheel that should do the trick.  You may need a different dogbone shaft length.

Norton posted:

I figured that but still not bad compared to the other engines you have done. I suspect the hardest part will be swapping out the tach reader.

Will be adding whistle steam too? If so that will be a challenge.

Pete

Yes, whistle steam will be added. Two separate smoke units will be used. The DSMK will not fit in the shell. Custom made brass tubing for the funnel/exhaust might have to be made. Possibly 3d printed parts if it becomes extremely difficult.

The punch down list grows. I tip my hat to you Bruk. I am confident you will be able to pull this off.

Pete

What is going to be interesting besides all the work involved in making this engine something the world hasn't yet seen will be when the actual Legacy version of the Dreyfus comes out. I would dare to say that that will fall short to this project. Even if there are no bugs, no drips, no errors made on those, they will fall short. Of course, this is assuming that Lionel will make these at some point in the future. I know a few have speculated that they will make them, but would they be Legacy or VL was the point question asked. If they are to be VL, then every 2 years is what Ryan said VL locomotives are produced.

So, no matter what, this will be something unlike ever before. I may have to pick one of these up and get work done, lol. See what comes, eh?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, with the Pittman motor, it shouldn't be that hard, there is already a Legacy board and flywheel that should do the trick.  You may need a different dogbone shaft length.

John is spot on, installing the encoder board and new flywheel is not difficult.

Sometimes the new flywheel will offset to far forward of the motor causing the "dogbone" to bind or not fit between the flywheel and input shaft for the gear box. I can trim certain areas on the dog bone and couplings but most of the time the fitment is bad enough you would want to change out the dogbone.

BUT!  Instead of going through the trouble of trying to to figure out what size dogbone to replace it with a Lionel part, and fabricating one or even 3d printing one from scratch. I remove the coupling from the input shaft on the gear box side and trim the shaft down allowing more clearance for the dogbone to fit between the flywheel and gear box. (such as I do on the Class A conversions).

This is not a huge out of the way task during a conversion because I always strip the motor down to clean and lubricate it then I also strip the gear box down to remove old grease and apply fresh grease. so everything is already apart.

Another option is to remove the couplings and and use a U Joint like the Niagaras use. 9433 and 9434 Pittmans have a 4mm shaft diameter. 4 mm U joints are a couple of bucks on eBay. Worked on my Legacy Commodore Vanderbilt.

You can also easily change the length of a dog bone by cutting it in half and using a piece of brass tubing to hold the pieces together to what length you need.

Pete

Bruk, how are you able to get Legacy items on the after market?

romiller49 posted:

Bruk, how are you able to get Legacy items on the after market?

Lionel

Norton posted:

Another option is to remove the couplings and and use a U Joint like the Niagaras use. 9433 and 9434 Pittmans have a 4mm shaft diameter. 4 mm U joints are a couple of bucks on eBay. Worked on my Legacy Commodore Vanderbilt.

You can also easily change the length of a dog bone by cutting it in half and using a piece of brass tubing to hold the pieces together to what length you need.

Pete

I have thought about using those U-joints in other applications. Like moving the motor out of alignment with input shaft would be a great example. But past that I personally wouldn’t use it in this type of set up.  

I have used the Brass tubing before to extend or shorten dog bones. In many different models and scales. 

Bruk posted:

Norton posted:

Another option is to remove the couplings and and use a U Joint like the Niagaras use. 9433 and 9434 Pittmans have a 4mm shaft diameter. 4 mm U joints are a couple of bucks on eBay. Worked on my Legacy Commodore Vanderbilt.

You can also easily change the length of a dog bone by cutting it in half and using a piece of brass tubing to hold the pieces together to what length you need.

Pete

I have thought about using those U-joints in other applications. Like moving the motor out of alignment with input shaft would be a great example. But past that I personally wouldn’t use it in this type of set up.  

I have used the Brass tubing before to extend or shorten dog bones. In many different models and scales. 

That’s all I do Bruk, use brass tubing and telescope it to make a nice fit....pack the tube with 3M panel bonder and let her eat in 30 minutes....polish the tubing for a nice effect....😉.......Pat

Finally got my part order in and I’m going to jump right in!

Of course Ill start off removing all the old electronics. I’m going to keep the IR in place and re-use that later. I removed the motor from the frame and broke down the drive. When I was doing this I noticed that the coupler between the driveshaft/worm gear and dog bone was loose and slipping on the shaft. I pulled it off with ease by hand. As mentioned in the comments above this will not be big deal because I will have to shorten the shaft anyways to make the the dog bone fit properly with the new flywheel.

After taking the drive apart and removing the old grease, I disassembled the motor. I do this on every conversion I work on. I check the commutators and re-lube the wicking around the armature bushings. Then reassembled the motor.

I was going to use the “flywheel guard” but the stack up with the motor bracket and PCB was to much for the flywheel/encoder to properly fit on the output shaft. So I had to scrap that idea. After I sorted that out I figured out how much I needed to trim down the worm gear shaft to fit the dog bone into the coupling correctly. I only had to remove .100 of an inch which wasn’t a lot compared to other projects. Since its a soft steel I was able to cut it by hand then file it down fairly easily. I fitted the coupling then drilled a 1/16th hole through the shaft. I fitted a small brass tube through the hole with some superglue. We have all seen the similar issue and fix on the early EM-1s so I found this to be adequate.

After that I fitted the heat sink to the boiler bottom. I had to position it just right for the placement of the smoke units. I then laid out a hole using the old bracket and mounted it. I had to drill and tap a hole in the front of the boiler bottom and inserted a 2-56 screw to help hold the heat sink in place.

More to come. 

Great work!

Looking good Bruk.

I'm truly amazed by the talent/patience/knowledge here on OGR not only to undertake, but complete such amazing projects!!

Alrighty,

I got lucky with the fire box light, the bracket that came with happen to match up with the holes on the back of the pitman motor, I just flip it upside down and had to tap the holes for the screws.

Usually at this point I jump into the wiring but I have a lot to do before that....before I start the “easy” part and wire in everything, I had to figure out how to mount the smoke units where they can be removable, serviceable and well fixed. I mocked up the brackets out of thick paper. This makes it easier to mock up how the bracket will fit and modify it with ease. I started with the whistle steam smoke unit. It actually was very difficult to find a good place to mount it. I was going to mount it to a part of the lower boiler shell right underneath the smoke unit. I drilled and tapped the hole then realized if i did that I couldn’t access the mounting screws for the boiler shell bottom....so I came up with the bracket you see in the photos. I mounted it to the drive block cover. Found this to be the best spot.

The main smoke unit for the exhaust wasn’t to bad to figure out, I reused the same mounting location and created a Z bracket. I found the best way to position the smoke unit was “backwards”. This is not normally something you would see. Once I was done with that I drilled out the stack to fit the larger brass tubing from the smoke unit. I thought I did a pretty good job centering it with the exhaust stack hole. I made the hole larger than it needs to be because of fitment, being able to line up both the smoke unit and whistle steam will be a pain. I’m all about making projects functional and serviceable. I want it to be easy for the next guy and appreciate how easy it was to repair... if needed.

Bruk,That's coming along very nicely and I appreciate the level of detail you put in to make the engine serviceable afterwards. I also want to thank you for taking the time to post a thorough description of the mods and the pictures showing your progress.

It's posts like this that keeps me coming back to this forum!!

Doug

Why the large funnel for the whistle smoke? Does that just seal against the top of the boiler shell?

I like the fact that the smoke units are all on the chassis, that does ease the servicing when necessary, and we all know that smoke units need servicing!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Why the large funnel for the whistle smoke? Does that just seal against the top of the boiler shell?

I like the fact that the smoke units are all on the chassis, that does ease the servicing when necessary, and we all know that smoke units need servicing!

I wondered about that oblong funnel too - as opposed to heat- and solvent-proof tubing and a couple of elbow joints. But maybe there isn’t space for the kind of contraption I’ve built to get smoke output at a little distance from the smoke unit. At the risk of creating a joke at my own expense, here’s an example:

All the tubing and joints come from US Plastics and are really intended for small fuel and lubricant lines.

Totally agree with GRJ about the chassis mounting of the smoke units.

Impressive craftsmanship as always Bruk! ... and made in the U.S.A. to boot!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Why the large funnel for the whistle smoke? Does that just seal against the top of the boiler shell?

Sorry John I thought you mentioned the main smoke unit and missed the "Whistle Smoke" part reading the comment.....which is pretty obvious.... I removed that comment.

That funnel has a top plate with a spout that goes through the shell for the whistle steam. (You can kind see it in the 3rd photo to the right on the blue mat, its black) and to my surprise its a cast piece and not plastic. The part is used on the ESE Hudson.

I believe that the whistle detail part sits in that same hole. The whistle detail part has a hole in the middle of it to get your steam feature. You can probably see it if you look it up on the parts site. I had removed it because that spout will not end up in the same location where the whistle is and fitting the shell for testing.

I plan on getting a strip of brass and capping that large funnel, then locating where I want that spout to end up in the end.

Ill go into more detail when I get to that part soon.

Whistle Steam!!

So this is how I made the funnel for the whistle steam. As you know this is a big mod. This whats make a legacy controlled steam loco fun. I used the original smoke funnel that is used on the ESE engine. The only thing was that the spout on the top for the whistle steam doesn’t not line up with the whistle on the dreyfuss. Luckily this smoke funnel is actually casted and not plastic, so its pretty durable.

To start I remove the top. I laid it down on some brass stock then marked where the screw holes were. I drilled it up and then mounted it to the funnel. I trimmed up the overhang and filed the corners.

Once I got that cleaned up I moved on to removing the whistle detail parts. It was incased epoxy so I had to take a Dremel to free it. I removed the detail part and chiseled off the rest with a screw driver.  I removed the whistle and then marked where I think it will work best. I drilled a 1/8 hole which is what I typically do to add whistle steam. But I need to fill the smoke unit from the whistle so I had to step it up to a 5/32 hole to fit a larger tube. This will give me enough room to fit a smoke fluid funnel.

After that I located where to drill a hole into the brass funnel top. Then took it apart and drilled a small hole to help me locate the brass tube for the spout. I cut a piece of 5/32 tubing then located it and soldered into position. I drilled out the remaining material and reinstalled the cover. Did a test fit and its perfect! Ill seal the top cover plate to the funnel after I have it wired and after initial testing.

That is a really ingenious and well executed adaptation. Speaking as somebody with NO metalworking skills (not offered in my shop classes in high school!) I really take my hat off to you.

Nice detailed presentation of the whistle steam build.  Makes me keep looking for Legacy stuff with whistle steam, looks like a lot of work!

This tremendous, Burk. Terrific craftsmanship and a fun read. I’m one of what I think are many who would love a Legacy Dreyfus. I’m glad there will be at least one out there!  Thanks for the thread. 

Absolutely superb craftsmanship 

Alex

This is amazing...!!  I’m so envious of the talent and craftsmanship displayed here. (Although I truly applaud and marvel at it)  I love how you’ve been able to build this out of thin air...  I can’t WAIT to see it in action.  I’ve been waiting for this set to be produced by Lionel for the better part of 15 yrs now and am excited to see some people taking the bull by the horns and getting it done for themselves.  Congrats on an amazing upgrade!

Bruk,

I echo all of the previous complements above.  Amazing!  

-Brian

Thanks for all the great comments, I appreciate it. I take a lot of pride in my work and I hope it shows. 

I want to thank Brain for giving me the chance to do this project. Its making me use all my skills on this project. I really have to think about what im going to do every step. Ive learned a lot of new technics so far that ill use in future projects. 

Heres a little teaser.

(There isn’t any sound to listen too expect a tv in the background and smoke fan motors.)

That looks pretty sweet!

Valpac posted:

That looks pretty sweet!

I think so! Whistle steam looks pretty sweet. Lots more to do still!