Lionel 21” NYC 20th Century Passenger cars are starting to arrive

I find all the comments worthy of discussion, Crank, I am not a purist but I appreciate the education. I bought the entire set, I am looking forward to adding it to my collection. It will probably sit for a while, that's just what I do, then I will run it, make a video and comment. My friend, Jeff P. is a purist and convinced me to buy the set for a variety of reason - First and foremost I don't have it. Lets be honest, the Carolina, Aberdeen and Western 2 car add on set is over 2 year late and I am 100% sure its because they made the first set, Engine and 2 cars them put the add on set on the burner. Thats a mistake, you go the paint, you have to production line up and operational so do it all at one time.

If i were Lionel or MTH or anyone in manufacturing, I would have asked the RR what was used - Pantone color numbers - but I am not in their shoes.

I so like the discussion and Crank did specifically state he's a NYC Guy and he wants more true prototypical color - that his choice, he also said enjoy what you purchased, I will.

Thanks to all that are providing comments, constructinve comments and education. Remember, it is a hobby, have fun.

K

Well, here were two topics we talked about earlier this year with a lot of great talking points and concerns.

Lionel 2023 Dreyfuss Hudsons (positives and concerns)

AT LAST !!!! LEGACY DREYFUSS!!!

On both of these prior topics, we really went at what was from actual photographs(B&W), as far as the striping and how they did or didn't look in comparison to what was in the catalog. A lot of color comparisons from prior runs whether Lionel, MTH, or K-Line. I'm sure if I dug further I could find about two or three more topics where a few of our NYC professors, or theologians, near experts, or experts, whatever you wish to call them, have posted and shown what it should be. This is not disrespectful to them in my eyes, as they have studied the Central(or know of, or known someone who ran the equipment) thoroughly, or have access to stuff that some of us just don't. Further on this, as Hot Water pointed out, shop procedures doesn't mean they have on hand what the as delivered colors were. Heck, even Pat(Harmon Yards) has pointed out on several occasions that if they needed to put something together like the right sized drivers, it didn't matter if it wasn't the same style, just that it was there and it fit.

Either way, have a look at what is there if you are interested. I just wish we could get the right colors, and the right style of whatever it is we happen to be discussing. We don't need no omitted letters in names, printed upside down, fluted where there shouldn't be any, right sized windows whatever. Maybe Scott will have another run of the 1938 cars?

@Harmonyards

How do we get the paint?

@PSU1980 posted:

@Harmonyards

How do we get the paint?

You contact me,……however, this is not model paint. Without the proper spray equipment, this is not a DIY project. Certain steps have to be taken to achieve the perfect finish…..An airbrush can’t push out enough material wet enough & long enough to achieve the results you see on this model:

Pat

Pat, that is amazing paint work on that Dreyfuss Hudson.

While the colors on the new cars may be off, I hope for all who bought this set that at least the finish on the loco matches when it arrives. Given the amount of money on the line, Lionel should at least match the loco's paint to the paint on the cars so the customers have a matching set.

@BlueComet400 posted:

Pat, that is amazing paint work on that Dreyfuss Hudson.

While the colors on the new cars may be off, I hope for all who bought this set that at least the finish on the loco matches when it arrives. Given the amount of money on the line, Lionel should at least match the loco's paint to the paint on the cars so the customers have a matching set.

Thanks John, we believe this to be as accurate the shade as can be given modern materials. As I’ve noted, to be sure some of the original ingredients would have contained lead, which today is a no-no for all the right reasons…….Before I even opened the can to see what we came up with, I went and grabbed a Smithsonian Dreyfus parts shell to set alongside when I popped the top, …not gonna lie, ….I got weak in the knees, ….it looked so good…..😉

Pat

You know, the tender almost looks like you grabbed the Commodore's one and popped it behind. I'm not saying it's the color looking like it's silver, just saying that the gray on it looks like you painted that tender instead of the Dreyfuss's. I think that is because there's no lettering yet. Great paint job Pat.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

You know, the tender almost looks like you grabbed the Commodore's one and popped it behind. I'm not saying it's the color looking like it's silver, just saying that the gray on it looks like you painted that tender instead of the Dreyfuss's. I think that is because there's no lettering yet. Great paint job Pat.

These engines I’ve been posting pictures of had not been lettered yet, …..these are actually Mercury engines I’ve built, so these would’ve been bumped from CENTURY duty and relegated to Mercury Service when the Niagaras took over CENTURY services ..I’ll get pictures up after that four letter word,……work ….🤮

Pat

If I were Lionel I would have gotten hold of the Smithsonian Hudson and a few of the cars and told the factory match that color and striping as close as you can— and be given the opportunity to approve the prototype the factory produces—problem solved — just don’t understand how if they basically did it right once they can’t do it again— yes I know they were brass but should not matter as to color

@harmonyards posted:

These engines I’ve been posting pictures of had not been lettered yet, …..these are actually Mercury engines I’ve built, so these would’ve been bumped from CENTURY duty and relegated to Mercury Service when the Niagaras took over CENTURY services ..I’ll get pictures up after that four letter word,……work ….🤮

Pat

So this isn't exactly an old Dreyfuss in whole? Is it a combination then of something then? I guess this will be another, "Tales From The Harmon Shops" topic? I'll wait with excitement.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

So this isn't exactly an old Dreyfuss in whole? Is it a combination then of something then? I guess this will be another, "Tales From The Harmon Shops" topic? I'll wait with excitement.

No, as Hudsons got bumped from CENTURY duties, they were reassigned, most lost their shrouding, and were put on lessor trains, but a couple were dolled back up again for Mercury service, …..the two assigned to Mercury service still wearing their Dreyfus clothing were 5344, & 5445, respectively, …..5344 was an in house project, sent to Collinwood in ‘39 to lose her Vanderbilt prom dress for the Mercury gayla,….where she stayed in Mercury service for quite some time, eventually sharing duties with ex-empire state express Hudson 5426 on the Detroit-Chicago leg,…

Pat

@20centuryhudson posted:

If I were Lionel I would have gotten hold of the Smithsonian Hudson and a few of the cars and told the factory match that color and striping as close as you can— and be given the opportunity to approve the prototype the factory produces—problem solved — just don’t understand how if they basically did it right once they can’t do it again— yes I know they were brass but should not matter as to color

Its not just Lionel. All manufacturers seem to have a problem with this color.

Below from left to right. Lionel E7, 3rd Rail Dreyfuss Tender, 3rd Rail E7 B unit.

MTH is not immune either as cars and engines have varied over the years as well.

Pete

The beauty queen E7’s we’re kind of unique tho—but they definitely were not as light as the Lionel version 3rd rail got it right in my opinion

Here's the MTH Premier Hudson, pulling the K-Line 18-inch aluminum cars. Not a perfect match by any means but given the relatively small amount of $$ I have tied up in this set, it's close enough for me. The trains on the wall in the background also indicate that I'm not all that concerned about perfect scale and color accuracy. I'm following this with great interest to see how close Lionel gets the paint on the engines. Fingers crossed for you guys who bought the whole set.

If I were Lionel I would have gotten hold of the Smithsonian Hudson and a few of the cars and told the factory match that color and striping as close as you can—

This is exactly what was told to the project manager runnning this venture and pictures of the Smithsonian set were indeed were sent to him.

- Crank

@BlueComet400 posted:

Here's the MTH Premier Hudson, pulling the K-Line 18-inch aluminum cars. Not a perfect match by any means but given the relatively small amount of $$ I have tied up in this set, it's close enough for me. The trains on the wall in the background also indicate that I'm not all that concerned about perfect scale and color accuracy. I'm following this with great interest to see how close Lionel gets the paint on the engines. Fingers crossed for you guys who bought the whole set.

and that’s how it’s been for decades now John, ….we found ourselves in the same shoes you are!…”ehhh, it’ll do,….” I plan on a system wide re-spray of my Century equipment to make a more authentic set, using the MTH cars, and Lionel & MTH Dreyfus engines…….fortunately, the stripes on my stuff are very close enough to carefully mask off ( properly btw ) and just shoot the odd grays to match our formula,….Sure wish Lionel hadn’t used too dark of a middle stripe on this new outfit, because as I’ve mentioned, masking the stripes, and just spraying the car bodies the correct gray would be a slam dunk, and actually pretty affordable for the average enthusiast who wanted a better looking set, ….but alas, this new outfit would require a complete undo-redo, ……pricing it out of whack for what y’all got to give for these cars out the gate,…..if I get time this evening, I’ll explain the whole process, and post up more pictures, because the overshoot process is actually pretty fascinating given my products ability to flow out and leave that perfect sheen…..more on that this evening, so stay tuned Dreyfus fans, right now a 55 Chevrolet is calling my name for a firewall shoot….😁

Pat

Is there any chance the Dreyfus Hudson in the Lionel video is some preproduction or one off and the model to be delivered is more like the Smithsonian in color? This is such an iconic locomotive and almost sacred to NYC aficionados I can’t believe Lionel botched it like the NW J a few years ago

@20centuryhudson posted:

Is there any chance the Dreyfus Hudson in the Lionel video is some preproduction or one off and the model to be delivered is more like the Smithsonian in color? This is such an iconic locomotive and almost sacred to NYC aficionados I can’t believe Lionel botched it like the NW J a few years ago

Given how far off the cars are, …survey says: NO!……but, as most pointed out the best to hope for is the engine matches this newest batch of cars, at least the sets will match among themselves….

Pat

@BlueComet400  To my eye, your's is the best looking set TCL discussed thus far, and, except for @harmonyards extraordinary work, its colors are the closest to what I think they ought to be.

And to add to @Norton 's point above, the color comparison he offers only contributes to my old argument that no one does New York Central "right." That said, lighting and viewing angles matter, too. Consider this -

The pieces on the upper shelf are all 3rd Rail and actually match each other quite well in more even light. Still, the overall light gray is a shade or two too light for me. The A-B-A set on the lower shelf are MTH E8s. At the risk of throwing more coal on the fire, I think there's also more to the pre and post war grays than simply reversing the color scheme. They may have actually been different colors. In the good old days of solvent based paints, Scalecoat used to offer NYC Light and Dark Grays 1 & 2 which, I believe , accounted for the differences. That's an argument for another time, but if someone can put me right about this, feel free.

- Mike

@Mike Casatelli posted:

@BlueComet400  To my eye, your's is the best looking set TCL discussed thus far, and, except for @harmonyards extraordinary work, its colors are the closest to what I think they ought to be.

And to add to @Norton 's point above, the color comparison he offers only contributes to my old argument that no one does New York Central "right." That said, lighting and viewing angles matter, too. Consider this -

The pieces on the upper shelf are all 3rd Rail and actually match each other quite well in more even light. Still, the overall light gray is a shade or two too light for me. The A-B-A set on the lower shelf are MTH E8s. As the risk of throwing coal on the fire, I think there's also more to the pre and post war grays than simply reversing the color scheme. They may have actually been different colors. In the good old days of solvent based paints, Scalecoat used to offer NYC Light and Dark Grays 1 & 2 which, I believe , accounted for the differences. That's an argument for another time, but if someone can put me right about this, feel free.

- Mike

we toiled on this for about 2-3 weeks in back & forth between my DuPont rep, and all of us in our little tight knit NYC group,…..when we boiled it down, we all agreed, the color should be a medium gray, with the ever-so-slight hint of a brown hue in the gray,…that was before my rep converted the old AE formula to urethane, …..and low & behold, on the ingredients call out, ….there it was …..brown in a sizable gram quantity per volume count…..nifty stuff!!

Pat

Whatever you did, @harmonyards , my hat's off to you!  I have been trying for years to come up with that color.

The brown component makes sense. After all, Henry Dreyfuss was know an The Man In The Brown Suit.

- Mike

@20centuryhudson posted:

Is there any chance the Dreyfus Hudson in the Lionel video is some preproduction or one off and the model to be delivered is more like the Smithsonian in color? This is such an iconic locomotive and almost sacred to NYC aficionados I can’t believe Lionel botched it like the NW J a few years ago

Well, difficult to say. I suggested that it is possible that the light used to film could be affecting the color, but there is no way to know that for sure. If it is close to the light, it may only change the color appearance just a bit, but I doubt that it would make the grey go from a dark grey to what I refer to as "Light Battleship Grey"(having painted several models as a kid). The difference is very noticeable as has been stated. It should be in the middle of what Battleship grey is and Light Battleship Grey are. BSG is a dark grey and LBG is almost towards white. That is how different they are.

Guess I’m canceling my Dreyfus if I can — very disappointing and honestly inexcusable—

@harmonyards posted:

we toiled on this for about 2-3 weeks in back & forth between my DuPont rep, and all of us in our little tight knit NYC group,…..when we boiled it down, we all agreed, the color should be a medium gray, with the ever-so-slight hint of a brown hue in the gray,…that was before my rep converted the old AE formula to urethane, …..and low & behold, on the ingredients call out, ….there it was …..brown in a sizable gram quantity per volume count…..nifty stuff!!

Pat

Pat is right, It all comes down to the DuPont paint codes, and a paint rep that is worth his salt is the key. Use the original paint codes, walk it forward through the generations of coating technology and come up with a modern formula that matches the original.  In this example, DuPont 8576 and 8592, light and dark polychromatic gunmetal, respectively, are the codes for the 1938 colors. Match that with the Opex blue paint code 3430DH, and the “aluminum” striping and you have the base.  I would not compare the diesel paint codes found for the E units, which don’t reference these same numbers, albeit my brain tells me that The Central didn’t stray far from these colors for them, either. My gray matter is telling me that the “black” E7’s were the same gunmetal as the CV… Black Metal-flake Lacquer…

@20centuryhudson posted:

Guess I’m canceling my Dreyfus if I can — very disappointing and honestly inexcusable—

And this is why Scott Mann never posts pictures of his things.  99% of people will never notice the difference unless an "expert" points out the "error" and are happy with what they receive.

If it’s way off how can you be happy? It’s just plain lazy and sloppy on Lionel’s part —

@20centuryhudson posted:

If it’s way off how can you be happy? It’s just plain lazy and sloppy on Lionel’s part —

Since everything ordered will sell anyway, that's all Lionel is interested in.

And therein lies the problem

@rdunniii posted:

And this is why Scott Mann never posts pictures of his things.  99% of people will never notice the difference unless an "expert" points out the "error" and are happy with what they receive.

What’s going on with these cars is a wee bit beyond error, …..certainly don’t need an expert to see the differences, …..first and foremost, there’s no black in that striping, …not from 1938 all the way through 1948, …..I’m sorry, but blind people can see the difference ……If Crank’s reply holds weight, and they were given the correct colors, with a bow on them, then they messed up somewhere along the line…..as a dealer pointed out to me earlier today, his customers wish to pay for accuracy, not a shot in the dark,….

Pat

I've been following this thread and find it very interesting. However, I don't model or follow the NYC so I'm getting confused as to all the variations and colors. Have pictures of the Lionel cars been posted and if not could someone post pictures?

Ken

What is especially aggravating is it’s just as easy to get it close to right as it is way wrong— it’s not really a cost issue either— getting the color on an iconic engine and set way wrong given the cost  and the fact they were adequately informed shows a contempt for the consumer— it really is that simple— this is Quality Control 101– the whole preorder business model only works if the consumer has faith in the company that they will deliver an accurate high quality product—

@kanawha posted:

I've been following this thread and find it very interesting. However, I don't model or follow the NYC so I'm getting confused as to all the variations and colors. Have pictures of the Lionel cars been posted and if not could someone post pictures?

Ken

First page, right at the top Ken,….sitting in Phil’s store, ….

Pat

@20centuryhudson posted:

What is especially aggravating is it’s just as easy to get it close to right as it is way wrong— it’s not really a cost issue either— getting the color on an iconic engine and set way wrong given the cost  and the fact they were adequately informed shows a contempt for the consumer— it really is that simple— this is Quality Control 101– the whole preorder business model only works if the consumer has faith in the company that they will deliver an accurate high quality product—

VERY appropriate statements! Just my opinion but, Lionel has not been consistant in getting "the colors" correct, over quite a few years. Thus, the consumer, especially those modelers active in 3RS accuracy, be ****ed.

It seems to me as though Lionel is putting most of their eggs in the feature upgrades such as sounds, whistle/blow down steam, water scoop effect to sell these warhorses than anything else.  They do have to some degree better tooling, hand applied details but when it comes to paint shades/schemes it seems to be an after thought or goes off the rails.

If you are going to depend upon a BTO business model then you had better stand and deliver.  But as has been said before as long as people keep buying nothing is going to change.

For a train as iconic as this and with the apparent preparation/PR that went into the production of the product this is a big bust paint shade wise.

Maybe Lionel should find a new Chinese interpreter.

So, as promised, some more recent pictures of the repaints I did using the formula my rep figured out. Some background information about the paint itself; This is an automotive urethane product, it’s a base coat/clear coat system. Staying in the Dupont refinishing system program, we went with the higher end Chromapramier line, more so because I spray it on a near daily basis, so I know how the material flows, reacts, and sprays …..under “normal” circumstances, this material would be sprayed in a reduction of 2:1 ( 2 parts color to 1 part reducer ) a catalyst can be added to the base coat to activate it, and harden it if desired, or mandatory for certain applications (bumpers, hoods, deck lids, etc. ) this gives the base coat strength. Then a clear coat would be applied over that….For modeling purposes, I’ve basically turned the B/C into model paint, by altering the reduction, and increasing the catalyst by volume. Now the applied product is much thinner, ( the reducer is only the vehicle that gets the paint from a gun to a panel, or in this case, a model locomotive) but,  has an increased durability thanks to the catalyst. I do not put a clear over top of this …..there is no need, as I said earlier, I know how Chromapramier sprays and I know what it takes to get that perfect satin sheen….Now onto spraying the models….I did not strip these engines save for lettering, and striping. The factory paint is still under there,….the beauty of Chromapramier is I can shoot the product over any existing properly prepared surface. The 5344 is an ex-Lionel 6-28084 shell, and the 5445 is an ex-Weaver brass shell mounted on a MTH chassis ….so fix any minor chipping, scuff, clean, and spray,….there’s no real magic except my rep nailed this color …..this technique could be applied to existing Dreyfus models that the striping is close in accuracy. Masking the stripes would not be nearly as big a hassle as redoing striping,…The Mercury sisters y’all see here were repainted in the real world for their new assignments in Mercury Service, …..they were painted in house by Central employees, …So back to the reply Jack made some time back on this thread, even when these engines were repainted for Mercury Service , there’s no guarantee they had the exact DuPont paint the 38 train set was painted with,….many vendors supplied the railroads materials ….Glidden, Dittzler, & Sherwin Williams were all vendors to the Central proper, …..

Pat

Oustanding!

- Mike

Look carefully at the pics I posted, and y’all can see how lighting wreaks havoc on this color!…I guarantee you I painted both engines with their nose cones attached to the boiler. but in certain lighting conditions, the round shape of the nose cone alters the color, ( partly because I suck at taking pictures ) but again, it just goes to prove that this is actually a tougher color to nail down than one thinks ….this particular gray has an ingredients list that reads more like a 3 course meal than just a gray made from black & white toners,….in person, your eye can’t see what the camera picks up…..

Pat

Pat, Lionel should retain you as a consultant.

@kanawha posted:

I've been following this thread and find it very interesting. However, I don't model or follow the NYC so I'm getting confused as to all the variations and colors. Have pictures of the Lionel cars been posted and if not could someone post pictures?

Ken

While aggravating to the NYC faithful this has indeed been an interesting thread for all those who strive for at least a modicum of accuracy in paint schemes/shades.  It almost makes me happy that some of my purchases of new fantasy scheme engines avoid this kind of angst.

@Former Member posted:

Pat, Lionel should retain you as a consultant.

Well, in the case of these cars ( and potentially the engine too ) my first response when they sent the sample from overseas would’ve been “ y’all is joking right!?….ha ha, funny, now let me see the real sample “ ….

Pat