Lionel 990 Controller

@rplst8 posted:

What is undeniable, is that the operation using Bluetooth is not consistent across all users.

Which is the major point!  At least half the posters here are reporting significant issues with the BT capability, that's not a product model to be proud of!  While TMCC/Legacy or DCS isn't perfect, a vast majority of the users have no significant issues on layouts large and small.

I wonder if anyone has tried one of the BlueTooth extenders?  I'm seeing a lot of them, but most seem to be uni-directional.  I would expect that a bi-directional unit would be required for the task.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

I'm still searching but I thought I saw a post that Lionel is updating the Bluetooth devices in its lineup. I thought it was from Dave Olson but I haven't found it yet. Maybe I'm hallucinating again.

Lionel is going to a longer range BT for new locomotives and in the BASE3.  Now, if they had a retrofit BT board for the old ones, that would be great!

" I thought it was from Dave Olson"  It was. He said the new range should be around 100 feet with this upgrade to the receiving end

Uh, oh!  The old universal remote BT will be behind!  Oh, the horror. . .  Cats and dogs, it will never end.

On another topic, why don't we have a dead horse emoji? 

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

On another topic, why don't we have a dead horse emoji? 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Lionel is going to a longer range BT for new locomotives and in the BASE3.  Now, if they had a retrofit BT board for the old ones, that would be great!

That would be great.   I wonder what that would involve. Is the BT on its on seperate board or incorporated on another with other functions/devices?

A Lionel video mentioned newer equipment coming out will get Bluetooth 5.0 from an upgrade from the previous 4.0.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Which is the major point!  At least half the posters here are reporting significant issues with the BT capability, that's not a product model to be proud of!  While TMCC/Legacy or DCS isn't perfect, a vast majority of the users have no significant issues on layouts large and small.

I wonder if anyone has tried one of the BlueTooth extenders?  I'm seeing a lot of them, but most seem to be uni-directional.  I would expect that a bi-directional unit would be required for the task.

Is that the point? I thought your point was as you stated: "First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout"

My first point is that you never defined what "a very small layout is."  My second point is that I actually went out and tested your hypothesis by standing back 30 feet from my layout with my Universal remote from 30 feet away to see if I can still control locomotives.  To add a level of difficulty, I had a furnace between me and the layout and I was able to control the locomotives with my Universal Remote just fine. Other posters have now come forth and they have used the Universal remotes on layouts larger than 4x8.

Why am I harping on this? Because people need to have accurate information about what their equipment can or cannot do. It would not be fair to our fellow train guys or to Lionel to have people walk away with the idea that "the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout" when that is not  accurate.  Its bad enough that every week we have a new thread about how the CAB-1L has been "canceled" (which it is not).

I don't understand Lionel's decision to stop the #990 production completely,  I like the feel of the controller in my hand & I can milk some nice Diesel horn sounds from the slider and the break squeal, and I'm supposed to use a cell phone & slide my finger on a smooth surface there is no manual feedback to your hand using that. (never used the BT option)

*and if #990 needs service ? ?

HA!  Yep, that's the emoji one we need!

@Madockawando posted:

Is that the point? I thought your point was as you stated: "First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout"

My first point is that you never defined what "a very small layout is."  My second point is that I actually went out and tested your hypothesis by standing back 30 feet from my layout with my Universal remote from 30 feet away to see if I can still control locomotives.  To add a level of difficulty, I had a furnace between me and the layout and I was able to control the locomotives with my Universal Remote just fine. Other posters have now come forth and they have used the Universal remotes on layouts larger than 4x8.

Why am I harping on this? Because people need to have accurate information about what their equipment can or cannot do. It would not be fair to our fellow train guys or to Lionel to have people walk away with the idea that "the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout" when that is not  accurate.  Its bad enough that every week we have a new thread about how the CAB-1L has been "canceled" (which it is not).

But your logic isn't sound. If you say "it works for me so it works for everyone else" it only takes one instance of it not working to disprove your theory.

Goodness, even Lionel admits the BT in its current form isn't optimal. And that is what you should be sharing with people. Lionel gets kudos for adopting BT and kudos for recognizing an issue with it, and kudos again for attempting to get it working even better.

I think this needs a dead horse, cattle, maybe a few fowl.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

But your logic isn't sound. If you say "it works for me so it works for everyone else" it only takes one instance of it not working to disprove your theory.

Goodness, even Lionel admits the BT in its current form isn't optimal. And that is what you should be sharing with people. Lionel gets kudos for adopting BT and kudos for recognizing an issue with it, and kudos again for attempting to get it working even better.

I think this needs a dead horse, cattle, maybe a few fowl.

How is my logic not sound? I conducted a test of the Lionel Universal Remote by stating the conditions of the test and I gave the results.  The only conclusion I gave was that the hypothesis that "the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout." is not accurate.

And as you say "it only takes one instance of it not working to disprove your theory" then you would agree with me that my test DISPROVES Gunrunnerjohn's theory.

@Madockawando posted:

Why am I harping on this?

You're harping just because you are you.

I would remove the term "small layout" from any hypothesis as it is a personal objective description that can't be define by anyone.

The universal remote has a 1 milliwatt output that rates this as a Class 3 device with 1 meter of rated range. Now through the magic of antennas, that range can be much greater depending upon environment variables and obstacles.  Your range will vary greatly depending on where and how you operate the Universal Remote.

I tested it inside of a 120 foot metal machine shed (giant Faraday cage) and got almost 40 feet of range. This was an optimal condition considering the signal couldn't escape off into space and I had direct line of sight the entire time.  Moved the same setup outside of the shed into open air and the range suddenly dropped to around 22 feet.

In my home it works reliably to 15 feet and occasionally I can get just under 20 feet of performance.

To some people, a 15 foot layout is small and to others that is rather big.

Since this is a "990" thread. Let's get this back on topic.

"Universal remote" is a misnomer. It will only operate newer locomotives equipped to receive its commands.

( more confusion from Lionel due to the ever changing Fisher Price handheld)

The 990 will operate any Legacy or tmcc equipped locomotive ever made. Including the latest releases.

Add a powermaster or tpc unit and you can operate any conventional locomotive ever made as well as Mth ps1,2 and 3, conventionally.

@SawDusT posted:

I don't understand Lionel's decision to stop the #990 production completely,  I like the feel of the controller in my hand & I can milk some nice Diesel horn sounds from the slider and the break squeal, and I'm supposed to use a cell phone & slide my finger on a smooth surface there is no manual feedback to your hand using that. (never used the BT option)

*and if #990 needs service ? ?

My understanding is that Lionel did not arbitrarily or unilaterally decide to stop producing the #990 remote. The decision was based upon a variety of factors, most noticeably the fact that several of the parts and pieces necessary to continue making the controller are either in short supply; not being produced; or being phased out by the manufacturers. Accordingly, Lionel had no realistic choice but to halt production and move on to newer technology. I can't blame Lionel for something beyond their control anymore than I can blame Ford or GM for halting vehicle production because of a worldwide chip shortage.

FWIW, I also prefer the tactile feel of the remote, but will learn to adjust.

I also understand that Lionel has enough spare parts to continue to repair the #990 controller at least for another year or so.     

@RickO posted:

Since this is a "990" thread. Let's get this back on topic.

"Universal remote" is a misnomer. It will only operate newer locomotives equipped to receive its commands.

( more confusion from Lionel due to the ever changing Fisher Price handheld)

The 990 will operate any Legacy or tmcc equipped locomotive ever made. Including the latest releases.

Add a powermaster or tpc unit and you can operate any conventional locomotive ever made as well as Mth ps1,2 and 3, conventionally.

Nothing wrong on getting back on topic but for clarity “Universal Remote is Lionel’s name for the product. It also controls I believe all Lionel series locomotives as well as Bluetooth equipped Legacy locomotives.

@Madockawando posted:

Nothing wrong on getting back on topic but for clarity “Universal Remote is Lionel’s name for the product. It also controls I believe all Lionel series locomotives as well as Bluetooth equipped Legacy locomotives.

Then for "clarity" it should be called universal "Bluetooth"remote. Lol!

@Madockawando posted:

Nothing wrong on getting back on topic but for clarity “Universal Remote is Lionel’s name for the product. It also controls I believe all Lionel series locomotives as well as Bluetooth equipped Legacy locomotives.

Sorry, are we inventing new products?  What's a "Lionel series locomotive"?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You're harping just because you are you.

Yes, like most people here, I strive for clarity when people make broad statements about any manufacturer’s equipment. Just like I am sure you do.

Care to walk back your broad  statement: “First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout.”

It might be a good idea to do so, considering how poorly defined and misleading your statement is. It does disservice to your fellow train guys looks for accurate information on remote control options for themselves and it certainly isn’t fair to Lionel.

@Richie C. posted:

My understanding is that Lionel did not arbitrarily or unilaterally decide to stop producing the #990 remote. The decision was based upon a variety of factors, most noticeably the fact that several of the parts and pieces necessary to continue making the controller are either in short supply; not being produced; or being phased out by the manufacturers. Accordingly, Lionel had no realistic choice but to halt production and move on to newer technology. I can't blame Lionel for something beyond their control anymore than I can blame Ford or GM for halting vehicle production because of a worldwide chip shortage.

Newer technology sure.  I'm all for an updated physical remote.  There are several parts of the CAB-2 interface that could be updated with more modern touch screen parts (keypad for example) while also keeping the physical buttons and knobs that people know and love. 

I find it hard to believe that potentiometers, faders, rotary encoders, linear encoders, and physical buttons are being obsoleted.  Sure certain part numbers are, but there are replacements out there.

FWIW, I also prefer the tactile feel of the remote, but will learn to adjust.

I also understand that Lionel has enough spare parts to continue to repair the #990 controller at least for another year or so.     

Only a year!  Yikes.  What does that mean for someone like me that JUST purchased one!?

@rplst8 posted:

Only a year!  Yikes.  What does that mean for someone like me that JUST purchased one!?

You'll have a nice paperweight.

@rplst8 posted:

Newer technology sure.  I'm all for an updated physical remote.  There are several parts of the CAB-2 interface that could be updated with more modern touch screen parts (keypad for example) while also keeping the physical buttons and knobs that people know and love.

I find it hard to believe that potentiometers, faders, rotary encoders, linear encoders, and physical buttons are being obsoleted.  Sure certain part numbers are, but there are replacements out there.

Only a year!  Yikes.  What does that mean for someone like me that JUST purchased one!?

@rplst8,

You have some very good points.

While there is certainly a technical solution possible, the question is whether it makes business sense to pursue it.

In the current environment, and with the cost of parts of all sorts, and the availability of semiconductors, in flux it probably doesn't make sense to Lionel to make a replacement.

Could it make sense for a third-party to create a replacement (and maybe include DCS control as well)?  Certainly.  But that's another set of business decisions, and clearly ones for someone else, other than Lionel in the present time, to make.

Mike

@irish rifle posted:

MTH just released their new handheld 50-1038 a in late 2021. This had been promised by MTH and replaced the 50-1002. The new model was in ample supply for a while at the dealers and are still available at some dealers, e.g., TrainWorld. There is not much difference between the old and new models. The only difference I have observed is that the new model seems to have a more sturdy thumbwheel assembly. I am not aware that MTH is planning to release another upgraded handheld model.

Pat

I didn't realize that anyone still had them in stock.  Fortunately, I'm set for MTH remotes, and will suck it up and use a tablet if it comes to that.  And that's the first time I've ever seen Trainworld sell something above MSRP - not blaming them, but 25% over full retail is a lot.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

You may not be aware because it was only posted here by MTH RD (I assume that is Mike or someone next to him) where he teased that there is at least concept work being done on a wi-fi based controller. Still vapors at this time. . .

The MTH person in that post identified himself.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You'll have a nice paperweight.

Your Sarcometer needs re-calibration  

@rplst8 posted:

...Only a year!  Yikes.  What does that mean for someone like me that JUST purchased one!?

To quote the Big Bang Theory:

What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis? Sheldon Cooper: Screwed.

I feel your pain.  Personally, I'm resigned to the inevitability of using a tablet or smartphone as a controller at some point in the future.

@Richie C. posted:

I also understand that Lionel has enough spare parts to continue to repair the #990 controller at least for another year or so.     

Who said only a year?  I thought I recall seeing or hearing much longer than that.

For the statement " only a year or so" to be made. There would have to be a known number of how many failures would occur.

My 990 was shipped with 1.4 so it's 10+ years old and has been trouble free the whole time.

I think , common sense type stuff. Like being careful not to drop the handheld on a concrete floor. Also more importantly, unplugging it when not it use. May help to lower your chances of issues. My remote is never on unless running trains. Batteries are charged in an external charger.

I don't understand the overwhelming assumption that modern electronic trains and equipment are all doomed to fail.

There are alot of folks still using 20+ year old TMCC controllers.

I'm more worried about how many Lionchief remotes will be polluting landfills by the time they reach Lionchief 37.4

@RickO posted:

There are alot of folks still using 20+ year old TMCC controllers.

The reality is thats really all you need for Command Control. My 990 was getting repaired so was using my Cab1 and base. Start your engine, run it, ring the bell, blow the whistle, start/stop smoke, open couplers, create lash ups. It will initiate whistle smoke and swinging bell. What more of value does a 990 do for you. 99% of the time I pick up my Cab1 even when I have my Cab2.

Pete

@rplst8 posted:

I agree a comparison would be interesting.  However, measuring the performance of a system based on RF can be difficult.  Each environment is different.  For all we know, GRJ has a ham next door emitting all sorts of radio interference and Madock lives next to the national radio quiet zone.  Additionally, each device used (for Bluetooth operation) will have it's own idiosyncrasies.

My point being, the results of any test, if not conducted in a "perfect RF environment" and with a variety of smart devices would be just as anecdotal as the experiences that have been shared so far.

What is undeniable, is that the operation using Bluetooth is not consistent across all users.

This was the information I was asking for - if others were having issues running Legacy locomotives with Bluetooth and the LC app. The results seem to be that "your results may vary." I didn't realize that the Universal Remote could control Legacy locos; I thought it was just for the different LC locos - so I learned something. Following this thread also helps me understand why Lionel is making such a big deal about the Base 3: the 990 is at end of life. However, since I'm quite happy with the 990 performance, I don't need to do anything until it breaks and cannot be repaired.

I do regret seeing the handheld migrating to a smart phone type app. Like some others have said, I'm old fashioned enough I like real knobs and buttons and not analogs on a smooth screen. I will also need a case for the smartphone that will make it harder to slip out of my hand.

Having no permanent layout at present, I have loops of Fastrack set up to test any new locomotive, which is usually from Lionel.  I haven't bothered for a few years to hook up my TMCC command base, as the Universal Remote can operate any new Lionel loco, whether it be LionChief, LionChief +2.0 or Legacy.  So that's for testing basic functioning (forward/reverse, electrocouplers, sounds) and works really conveniently since the LionChief locos won't respond to the TMCC handheld or Legacy handheld in any case.  Just my approach.

I just acquired a Legacy 990 and a spare remote in the last few months since I do have a few Legacy locos, but I'm not sure when I'll get around to building or having built a permanent layout.  For now, the Universal Remote is pretty universal, at least for me.

@Norton posted:

The reality is thats really all you need for Command Control. My 990 was getting repaired so was using my Cab1 and base. Start your engine, run it, ring the bell, blow the whistle, start/stop smoke, open couplers, create lash ups. It will initiate whistle smoke and swinging bell. What more of value does a 990 do for you. 99% of the time I pick up my Cab1 even when I have my Cab2.

Pete

Pete,

Are you saying that none of really needed the Cab-2/Base-2 in the first place?

If so then we don't need to find and horde the remaining Cab-2's, and we certainly don't need the Cab-3 App/Base-3 either.

Mike

Well if quilling whistle and train brake is important to you or 200 speed steps then you will need a 990 or wait for the Base3. I am pretty sure I could activate the Vision Niagara water scoop effect with my Cab1 so not sure what else a 990 brings to the table. Anyone late to party and wants to control their Legacy engines with a handheld could do worse than finding an old Command set. I have seen them for under a hundred bucks.

Pete

@RickO posted:

Who said only a year?  I thought I recall seeing or hearing much longer than that.

For the statement " only a year or so" to be made. There would have to be a known number of how many failures would occur.

My 990 was shipped with 1.4 so it's 10+ years old and has been trouble free the whole time.

I think , common sense type stuff. Like being careful not to drop the handheld on a concrete floor. Also more importantly, unplugging it when not it use. May help to lower your chances of issues. My remote is never on unless running trains. Batteries are charged in an external charger.

I don't understand the overwhelming assumption that modern electronic trains and equipment are all doomed to fail.

There are alot of folks still using 20+ year old TMCC controllers.

I'm more worried about how many Lionchief remotes will be polluting landfills by the time they reach Lionchief 37.4

I never said "only a year" - I said "only a year or so" - meaning maybe two, three, etc., but a limited time frame.

That period was also suggested in an earlier post in this same thread and, yes, I'm sure Lionel has the data on how many are sent in for repair on average each year since they began producing them.

Rather than focusing on a specific time frame, the point is that the #990 system will rapidly become obsolete.

I hope yours and mine both last at least another 10 years.

@Norton posted:

Anyone late to party and wants to control their Legacy engines with a handheld could do worse than finding an old Command set. I have seen them for under a hundred bucks.

Pete

Actually, the demise of the 990 has caused cab 1 prices to increase significantly as well. I've seen a fewcab1/base sets on ebay sell for well over $200.

@Norton posted:

The reality is thats really all you need for Command Control. My 990 was getting repaired so was using my Cab1 and base. Start your engine, run it, ring the bell, blow the whistle, start/stop smoke, open couplers, create lash ups. It will initiate whistle smoke and swinging bell. What more of value does a 990 do for you. 99% of the time I pick up my Cab1 even when I have my Cab2.

Pete

Well, I join the fray . I find the Cab II a pleasure to use, and aside from sending it back to Lionel when first purchased, I haven't touched my old Cab 1 in over ten years - though it does stand-by as a dutiful soldier in these strange toy train/economic times. Aside from the quilling whistle and train brake levers, the digital readout screen is a welcome improvement over the Cab I. My only complaint is that Lionel couldn't get around MTH's patent on scale MPH, but the Cab II does indicate both speed increments and specific engine addressed.

I think Lionel has made a mistake in banking heavily on apps and Smart devices, though I understand economic considerations of their plan going forward. Their decision has put me off on pre-ordering any new Legacy engines, and that custom run PRR Class A from Muffins was calling my name. Just as well because I don't know how I am going to pay for the PE Acela set . Swipe technology has its fans and place in this virtual world, but there's a neat and happy medium between analog and digital. Analog buttons, dials, and levers are just plain neat. Heck, if I had the brains I'd add a lever throttle to my Cab II - then it'd be perfect, though probably a bit bulky Of course, I still drive a manual trans Mustang GT - and wouldn't trade or sell it for any of these new fangled automatic super computer-controlled cars out today.

For us old-timers, there is comfort in that Lionel is continuing the Cab 1L. Nonetheless, I've been scrambling to find a dealer with 993 sets still left in stock, just to have a backup...it's amazing how many train shops don't have websites...means lots of phone calls...kind of nice though, chatting with some of these guys and getting their take on the hobby and how it's evolving, or regressing, depending.

@Paul Kallus posted:

Well, I join the fray . I find the Cab II a pleasure to use, and aside from sending it back to Lionel when first purchased, I haven't touched my old Cab 1 in over ten years - though it does stand-by as a dutiful soldier in these strange toy train/economic times. Aside from the quilling whistle and train brake levers, the digital readout screen is a welcome improvement over the Cab I. My only complaint is that Lionel couldn't get around MTH's patent on scale MPH, but the Cab II does indicate both speed increments and specific engine addressed.

You just have to ask yourself how many avid computer gamers use touch screens to understand the difference between fumbling with a phone screen and a physical remote with real controls.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You just have to ask yourself how many avid computer gamers use touch screens to understand the difference between fumbling with a phone screen and a physical remote with real controls.

Well said.  Serious Gamers don't use touch screens.  They use controllers with real buttons for the kind of precise control needed to excel at their passion.  Keeping their eyes on the action while playing is critical.  No time for diverting of attention in order to find a virtual button or slider on a screen.

Well, at least my kids do.

(I was about 15 or 16 when Pong came out and started the revolution.  The technical underpinnings of video games have always fascinated me and I've even written some very simple ones for educational purposes, but from that point forward playing them hasn't captivated me as it has my kids, and wife for that matter.  I'll stick with the trains and, to control them, the real buttons -- for the same reason as the Gamers.)

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Well said.  Serious Gamers don't use touch screens.  They use controllers with real buttons for the kind of precise control needed to excel at their passion.  Keeping their eyes on the action while playing is critical.  No time for diverting of attention in order to find a virtual button or slider on a screen.

So what we are saying is if these apps had a gaming API integrated so that we can use a gaming controller of our choice, that would give everyone those buttons we all like to push to run our trains:

@H1000 posted:

So what we are saying is if these apps had a gaming API integrated so that we can use a gaming controller of our choice, that would give everyone those buttons we all like to push to run our trains:

Buttons?  I think we need something slightly more sophisticated, maybe go back and read the previous comments.  Throttle control, train brake, and quilling whistle control for a few...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Buttons?  I think we need something slightly more sophisticated, maybe go back and read the previous comments.  Throttle control, train brake, and quilling whistle control for a few...

Those features can be customizable using the analog joy sticks on the controller. By the way, I don't like the train brake on the left, so how do I swap that slider on the cab2 with Quilling whistle? I can do that with this controller when I get some time with the Cab3 app.

Better yet, why not put the train brake and the quilling whistle on the same joystick (quilling left to right and brake top to bottom) and then use the other joystick to round roll to control throttle like we all do already with the red wheel.

The customization is endless, and I am not limited to your "one size fits most remote".

OK guys ... enough already! Topic closed.  We simply are getting too many alerts to the so called "discussion" that has obviously strayed.