Lionel 990 Controller

@Landsteiner posted:

"So, nothing remotes due to parts obsolescence, and go to apps like MTH"

You are perhaps overlooking the Universal Remote that will control any Lionel locomotive made going forward for about $50.  And the cab-1L which will talk with the forthcoming Base 3.  So two remotes by my count.  Just nothing high end.

First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout.  All my new LC+ 2.0 and Legacy engines with BT go out of range on my 12 x 24 layout, so unless you're still running on a 4 x 8 plywood sheet, that's not an option.  Yes, I tried a second Universal remote, same issue.  Then there's the fact that you can't do basic controls with the Universal remote anyway, like turn smoke on/off.

"First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout."

I think you are being unduly harsh.  The vast majority of people have layouts much smaller than your quite large 12 x 24.  With all due respect, you are hardly the typical Lionel customer .   I grant you clubs and modular groups aren't going to be using Bluetooth on their larger layouts in all likelihood. If you can get reasonably close to the loco, it should be just fine for many people.  No personal experience here, I grant you.

My point is not that all people are covered by the Universal Remote and the cab-1L.  However, these do represent a continued capability for handheld remotes for those who strongly prefer them, and Lionel is the only provider of handheld remotes at the moment.  And that suggests if there is strong demand for a more sophisticated handheld remote, there will be one.

Some are giddily thrilled over the MTH statement that there will be a handheld DCS remote somewhere in the distant future.  That's presumably a response to the howls of disappointment over the disappearance of the DCS remote.  Which I agree with. I've never been a fan of MTH starter sets (RIP) not having an included remote, for one thing.

I'd put my money on Lionel's new age vaporware remote appearing sometime before the appearance of the MTH new age vaporware remote, but that's just opinion.

@Landsteiner posted:

Some are giddily thrilled over the MTH statement that there will be a handheld DCS remote somewhere in the distant future.  That's presumably a response to the howls of disappointment over the disappearance of the DCS remote.  Which I agree with. I've never been a fan of MTH starter sets (RIP) not having an included remote, for one thing.

I'd put my money on Lionel's new age vaporware remote appearing sometime before the appearance of the MTH new age vaporware remote, but that's just opinion.

Well, I have to agree that if a new physical remote surfaces, Lionel will probably be the one that produces it.  I also don't share the optimism that MTH will suddenly start pumping out major new hardware with a couple of people in their development division.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You assume facts not in evidence.  I have created a number of niche products that wouldn't be practical for large company.  If I sell a couple hundred decoders, that would be a worthwhile project.  Given the fact that this "decoder" would likely connect to the serial data inside the engine or accessory, much of the effort would be coding, the hardware would be really simple.

I stand corrected on that then. I doubt a commercial company would do this, which by invoking DCC was what the original person implied. You certainly know better than I what is involved with this.

with the App, you don't need to use a phone, when I get around to it I'll likely buy an inexpensive android tablet, they aren't expensive and you can get one that is a size you like for a lot less than a phone. If you are using wifi to connect to the base any tablet will do, same for bluetooth connectivity.

Well, I would find a tablet pretty cumbersome to run trains with, so that's not something that appeals to me.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout.  All my new LC+ 2.0 and Legacy engines with BT go out of range on my 12 x 24 layout, so unless you're still running on a 4 x 8 plywood sheet, that's not an option.  Yes, I tried a second Universal remote, same issue.  Then there's the fact that you can't do basic controls with the Universal remote anyway, like turn smoke on/off.

Define "Very small layout"... Especially the "very small" qualifier ... I have a 12.5 by 5.5 layout with two loops of O-48 track and I can run three scale Legacy Locomotives with my handy-dandy bright orange, no wire hook up Universal Remote, I can stop, go forward, go backwards, I can blow the horn, I can initiate the crew talk, I can have two Legacy locomotives on the same loop all controlled by by $49.00 Universal Remote and I have fun doing so.  Is my layout very small?

Its a basic $49 remote. It does a good job doing what it was designed to do. It is also a great way to introduce new hobbyists to the fun of controlling Legacy Locomotives.   However, I never did a range test for the Universal Remote, perhaps tomorrow I will see what the max distance is.

While my 990 was back at Lionel for repair, I tried using Bluetooth and the LC app on my iPhone to control  my loco: small 4' X 9' loop. I found that the loco would "disconnect from my iPhone at random spots around the loop. Sometimes I could get more than one lap before losing communication. Tried another loco, same result. Obviously I'm hoping for better performance when I have to move on to Base3. Has anyone else experienced this kind of difficulty trying to run Legacy locos with Bluetooth?

@DavidR posted:

While my 990 was back at Lionel for repair, I tried using Bluetooth and the LC app on my iPhone to control  my loco: small 4' X 9' loop. I found that the loco would "disconnect from my iPhone at random spots around the loop. Sometimes I could get more than one lap before losing communication. Tried another loco, same result. Obviously I'm hoping for better performance when I have to move on to Base3. Has anyone else experienced this kind of difficulty trying to run Legacy locos with Bluetooth?

I have never tried running my Legacy locomotives with the LC app, just the Universal Remote.

Reading all of this it think would make a plug and go guy like myself step back and take a different course.  🤔 I love the 3 rail hobby when it comes building scenery and creating . I am a no technical guy and like to turn the system on press the buttons and have fun.. what happened to that 😕

Having worked extensively with both both IoS and Android tablet and phone apps, they are incredibly useful. You cannot only run locos and control all kinds of functions, you can set all kinds of operating parameters as well. Handheld remotes are also great to use because they are so staightforward. The Bluetooth operating range issue has nothing to do with its use in app based control. This is a matter of which specific Bluetooth level is employed in a specific product. There are available Bluetooth control systems with ranges of up to 100 feet and they are app based.

@Landsteiner posted:

...

Some are giddily thrilled over the MTH statement that there will be a handheld DCS remote somewhere in the distant future.  That's presumably a response to the howls of disappointment over the disappearance of the DCS remote. ...

I've been trying to follow the MTH / DCS saga, but I missed this.  Last I heard was that the DCS remote was maxed out on space / functionality and that some components are no longer available.

Much as I prefer a hand held remote to a tablet, I don't see small-volume companies like MTH and Lionel making proprietary remotes when a generic option is available.  Had smartphones and tablets been a viable option 20+ years ago, I wonder if those companies would have developed their own remotes in the first place?

Does anyone have a link to where MTH has said that there will be a new remote? 

@Bill Grafmiller posted:

Reading all of this it think would make a plug and go guy like myself step back and take a different course.  🤔 I love the 3 rail hobby when it comes building scenery and creating . I am a no technical guy and like to turn the system on press the buttons and have fun.. what happened to that 😕

Bill,

I hear ya, but "That" has never been a part of this hobby, except in the case of starter sets.  It's only an elusive enticement.  Once you buy your first accessory, or switch, or uncoupling track, and add it to your starter layout, you cease becoming simply an "operator" and must become a "tinkerer" in order make things work as advertised.  This is not new; it goes way, way, way back.

Tinkering with track layouts.  Tinkering with coal loaders.  Tinkering with transformers.  Tinkering with motors.  Tinkering with linkages and gears.  Even at the simplest level this hobby is generally about tinkering.  Some people believe that the hobby evolved the way it did specifically for the purpose of teaching kids how to tinker.  Today there's a new term for this, they call it S.T.E.M., but it's always been here.  From the beginning.

Many people can get away with not doing it, especially if they get help by directing the right questions to the right folks, as we do on this forum, but by and large there's something new and necessary to teach yourself everyday in order to continue.  And unfortunately tinkering doesn't become any easier as time goes on, because new features and technologies come along and regularly reset the bar.

If you're not a tinkerer, and don't get into the process of asking the right people the right questions to get around your problem as an alternative, then it probably is a very good time to "step back and take a different course."

Perhaps collecting instead?

Mike

Mike you are right and I do tinker. But that said I guess I am referring more to the technology when purchased and it does not work for example 990 controller when I purchased I sent back to lionel to be fixed 2 times, the ZL-W Transformer sent back had to have it replaced. Yes thank you lionel for your warranty it did come in handy. Now we are going into the new controller 3cab. Hope this thing is bullet proof for the price I for one do not want to tinker.

"Does anyone have a link to where MTH has said that there will be a new remote? "

MTH Research and Development (Dave K) posted this on the future handheld remote:

https://ogrforum.com/...2#158674373596644632

Since he was the developer of DCS, this seems a credible prediction.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

First off, the universal remote is useless on anything but a very small layout.  All my new LC+ 2.0 and Legacy engines with BT go out of range on my 12 x 24 layout, so unless you're still running on a 4 x 8 plywood sheet, that's not an option.  Yes, I tried a second Universal remote, same issue.  Then there's the fact that you can't do basic controls with the Universal remote anyway, like turn smoke on/off.

My layout isn't huge (16X17 feet at it's largest, the main line running area is 12X16 feet) and the BT connectivity is bad. I have one Lionel locomotive with BT (2019 run of the Legacy Santa Fe 3751 class Northern) and the one time I tried running it with BT via the Lionchief+ app it would constantly disconnect if it went into a tunnel or behind scenery. I run it with my trusty TMCC base and it's problem free, so I stick with that.

@DavidR posted:

While my 990 was back at Lionel for repair, I tried using Bluetooth and the LC app on my iPhone to control  my loco: small 4' X 9' loop. I found that the loco would "disconnect from my iPhone at random spots around the loop. Sometimes I could get more than one lap before losing communication. Tried another loco, same result. Obviously I'm hoping for better performance when I have to move on to Base3. Has anyone else experienced this kind of difficulty trying to run Legacy locos with Bluetooth?

Tell it. Almost exact same experience. Two week old Lionel 2133090 Bethlehem Steel Legacy w/Bluetooth.  Tried Android phone, Apple iphone and Apple Ipad and all would have collapse of link after 1 -2 minutes or 5 -8 feet  whichever limit is exceeded first.  This is with me within 1 -5 feet of my around the sofa loop. The problem is in Lionels technology nothing wierd about my house wiring etcc.. 

Even tried all the 'hacks' user are resorting to cut off wifi on phone/table and then cutoff wifi router for whole house. Didn't make much difference if any.

I just tested my Universal Remote. I can control locomotives from over 30 feet away.

Haven't used the smart device app much, but my experience with the Universal Remote, similar to Madockawando's,  has been that over several years and the closeby range seems fine with no cutting out.  Wonder if there is something different about the Bluetooth transmitter in smart devices versus whatever the LionChief/Universal Remote is putting out?  No idea myself, but there seems to be a disconnect between people's experiences with LionChief remotes/Universal Remote (excellent links) and the app/smart device Bluetooth (flakey links).  Any ideas why this might be?

How does the universal remote communicate with the loco. Direct through bluetooth link or through a base unit attached to rails etcc?  Is that just for LionChief class loco's?

The Universal Remote does not require a command base. It directly communicates with LionChief or Bluetooth equipped locos. My understanding was, perhaps incorrectly, that it could transmit both radiofrequency commands and Bluetooth to LionChief equipped or Bluetooth equipped locos.  It's a one way system, so it doesn't know what's on the receiving end.  I had thought that the original LionChief locos were 2.4 GHz spread spectrum RF communications, but that was just speculation because off the shelf hardware is readily available from the radio control car, boat and airplane industry.  But this is all guesswork. Be nice to hear from someone who knows actual facts .

@Madockawando posted:

I just tested my Universal Remote. I can control locomotives from over 30 feet away.

As the prototypical Lionel cheerleader, I would expect no less.   It boggles the mind that a sample of one is somehow considered a definitive conclusion even though there are a bunch of BT failure stories proceeding it.

@Landsteiner posted:

The Universal Remote does not require a command base. It directly communicates with LionChief or Bluetooth equipped locos. My understanding was, perhaps incorrectly, that it could transmit both radiofrequency commands and Bluetooth to LionChief equipped or Bluetooth equipped locos.  It's a one way system, so it doesn't know what's on the receiving end.  I had thought that the original LionChief locos were 2.4 GHz spread spectrum RF communications, but that was just speculation because off the shelf hardware is readily available from the radio control car, boat and airplane industry.  But this is all guesswork. Be nice to hear from someone who knows actual facts .

The LC and LC+ models weren't BT to start, that came later.  The Universal remote has both.  A test of the older LC RF remote is meaningless in this discussion, it actually did have greater (but not that great) range.

I managed to lose my LC+ Camelback in the tunnels of the NJ-HR layout a few times at one of the TrainStock days and we had to go fetch it, but it was good to around 30 or so feet before I'd lose it.

I have a set of Legacy PRR F3s and a set of Legacy Baldwin Sharks.  I tried out the LionChief app using Bluetooth on both my iPad and my Android phone.  The results were mixed.  While it’s nice to have the option, I found it would disconnect frequently and sometimes, when at the other end of my layout, it wouldn’t respond to commands… Or weirder still, respond much later than when I issued the command.

I was able to easily switch the horn and bell sounds on my Sharks from the app which is nice.  That said once my 990 set gets back from Lionel after getting upgraded, I’ll be using that and the MTH DCS app from then on out.  

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

As the prototypical Lionel cheerleader, I would expect no less.   It boggles the mind that a sample of one is somehow considered a definitive conclusion even though there are a bunch of BT failure stories proceeding it.

The LC and LC+ models weren't BT to start, that came later.  The Universal remote has both.  A test of the older LC RF remote is meaningless in this discussion, it actually did have greater (but not that great) range.

I managed to lose my LC+ Camelback in the tunnels of the NJ-HR layout a few times at one of the TrainStock days and we had to go fetch it, but it was good to around 30 or so feet before I'd lose it.

Okay so my Universal Remote’s range is over 30 feet because I am a “Lionel Cheerleader”. Very scientific analysis on your part.

Perhaps your Universal Remote’s range is limited to 5 feet because you are a “Perpetual Curmudgeon.” 😉

@Madockawando posted:

Okay so my Universal Remote’s range is over 30 feet because I am a “Lionel Cheerleader”. Very scientific analysis on your part.

Perhaps your Universal Remote’s range is limited to 5 feet because you are a “Perpetual Curmudgeon.” 😉

See it shows, Living up to your reputation!!!!

Is that actual feet or Unicorn feet?

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

See it shows, Living up to your reputation!!!!

Is that actual feet or Unicorn feet?

And you know what? I went back downstairs, grabbed my Lionel Universal Remote and it still runs locomotives from over 30 feet away.😉

@Madockawando posted:

I just tested my Universal Remote. I can control locomotives from over 30 feet away.

Hmmmm, trying it this morning on  my post war GG1, No response from 5 feet...

silly

yup, yup, nothing on my 2025 either....

@Miggy posted:

Hmmmm, trying it this morning on  my post war GG1, No response from 5 feet...

silly

You are right, it is silly for someone to claim that Lionel’s Universal Remote is only good for “very small layouts.” Since I have a Universal Remote, it was easy to disprove that silly notion with a simple test.  I recommend that you purchase a LionChief GG1 if you want better results while using your Universal Remote. 😁

@Landsteiner posted:

"Does anyone have a link to where MTH has said that there will be a new remote? "

MTH Research and Development (Dave K) posted this on the future handheld remote:

https://ogrforum.com/...2#158674373596644632

Since he was the developer of DCS, this seems a credible prediction.

Thanks.  I recall seeing that post, but I had to go back and read through it multiple times to catch the one line about the handheld remote.

Sounds like there is a lot on his plate, and it's gonna be awhile.  The way I read it, the remote isn't at the top of the list.

His reference to Mike Wolf's involvement makes me feel like we've been deceived about MW's "retirement".  IMO, it would have been much more honest for him to say that MTH is transitioning to a distributed organizational structure and will do BTO manufacturing.  Although even with that, it sounds like warranty service will be a mess.

@Mallard4468 posted:

His reference to Mike Wolf's involvement makes me feel like we've been deceived about MW's "retirement".  IMO, it would have been much more honest for him to say that MTH is transitioning to a distributed organizational structure and will do BTO manufacturing.  Although even with that, it sounds like warranty service will be a mess.

But look at all the sales they made with the "retirement announcement".  I agree they should have just come out and let everyone know but I'm not sure they knew at the time..

Back to the remotes, My Universal and LC+ remote that came with the Star Trek set seems to cover my layout adequately.  Its about 12x12 and I can hit it anywhere I am in the room where I would consider myself being in the operational area.  I haven't tried to go upstairs or anything but why would I when the trains are in the basement.  Bottom line is, there are a lot of factors that will affect the remote to engine signal.  Everyone's experience will be different.  I don't understand the need to basically call someone a liar because they are getting good or bad results based on their experiences.

@MartyE posted:

But look at all the sales they made with the "retirement announcement".  I agree they should have just come out and let everyone know but I'm not sure they knew at the time..

Back to the remotes, My Universal and LC+ remote that came with the Star Trek set seems to cover my layout adequately.  Its about 12x12 and I can hit it anywhere I am in the room where I would consider myself being in the operational area.  I haven't tried to go upstairs or anything but why would I when the trains are in the basement.  Bottom line is, there are a lot of factors that will affect the remote to engine signal.  Everyone's experience will be different.  I don't understand the need to basically call someone a liar because they are getting good or bad results based on their experiences.

Amen on both points, especially about everyone having different experiences.  Too much brand loyalty and fanboy-ism in this thread, IMO.

I don't have a loyalty to either brand - Lionel and MTH each have positives and negatives.  For reasons of road name, type, price, and availability, about 80% of my modern engines are MTH.  It also seemed to me that DCS' method of sending signals via the rails should be more reliable.  However, as a result of the way that MW's "retirement" has been handled, I've been getting more into Lionel engines and controls - the net result of this process has been to drive more business to Lionel, at least for me.

It would be interesting to compare the range  of the Universal Remote/LionChief Remotes with the app/Bluetooth using the same loco.  Will try to get to this eventually, perhaps this weekend.  It could be that the two approaches yield different results, but we won't know until someone tries .  Obviously the app/Bluetooth could also vary in range depending on the device the app is on and its capabilities.  That remains another uncontrolled variable that could be evaluated, but not by me.  iPhone only here.

@MartyE posted:

I don't understand the need to basically call someone a liar because they are getting good or bad results based on their experiences.

It's necessary to call someone a liar when you disagree with them, not because it's true, but because it's the nature of what, in today's world, has taken the place of civil discourse.

What happened to the concept of constructive criticism?  True, it didn't always work perfectly but it worked much better than what we do now.

Perhaps we ought to back up, pull the emotion out of the discussion, and resume focusing only on the technical facts?

Mike

@Ray of sunshine posted:

So those that really prefer to use the 990 Legacy controller should buy up all that they can as the used market place is going to drive them up and up and up. Just like the price of some used cars are more than buying a new one.

Someone on the "bay" has a complete Legacy set base and remote with a starting price of $1000 plus $60 shipping!

I wonder if I can get $1500 to $2000 or more for mine and I'll include free shipping. Any takers?

RAY

Ray:

LOL. Buy them up where? Not from any dealer, for sure. The dealers haven't had any in stock since 2020 or very early 2021. Prior to that, they were in very short supply for an extended period. You are correct though that if someone wants to pay an exorbitant price on eBay for a #990, they do pop up there from time to time.

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

It's necessary to call someone a liar when you disagree with them, not because it's true, but because it's the nature of what, in today's world, has taken the place of civil discourse.

What happened to the concept of constructive criticism?  True, it didn't always work perfectly but it worked much better than what we do now.

Mike

Looking back through this thread, no one has called anyone a liar so I don’t know where you are getting it from.
I do know that the hypothesis was put forth that Lionel‘s Universal Remote is “only good for very small layouts.”

Given the implications for operators and for Lionel, it seemed like it was an easy hypothesis to test. Why? Because it would be a shame for someone to shy away from the Universal Remote because  they think it would not work on any layout bigger than 8x4. That is not accurate and having that idea out there does not help the operator or Lionel.

I would think we all agree that as much as possible we want accurate information about what our equipment can and can not do, right?

@Mallard4468 posted:

I've been trying to follow the MTH / DCS saga, but I missed this.  Last I heard was that the DCS remote was maxed out on space / functionality and that some components are no longer available.

Much as I prefer a hand held remote to a tablet, I don't see small-volume companies like MTH and Lionel making proprietary remotes when a generic option is available.  Had smartphones and tablets been a viable option 20+ years ago, I wonder if those companies would have developed their own remotes in the first place?

Does anyone have a link to where MTH has said that there will be a new remote?

MTH just released their new handheld 50-1038 a in late 2021. This had been promised by MTH and replaced the 50-1002. The new model was in ample supply for a while at the dealers and are still available at some dealers, e.g., TrainWorld. There is not much difference between the old and new models. The only difference I have observed is that the new model seems to have a more sturdy thumbwheel assembly. I am not aware that MTH is planning to release another upgraded handheld model.

Pat

You may not be aware because it was only posted here by MTH RD (I assume that is Mike or someone next to him) where he teased that there is at least concept work being done on a wi-fi based controller. Still vapors at this time. . .

@Landsteiner posted:

It would be interesting to compare the range  of the Universal Remote/LionChief Remotes with the app/Bluetooth using the same loco.  Will try to get to this eventually, perhaps this weekend.  It could be that the two approaches yield different results, but we won't know until someone tries .  Obviously the app/Bluetooth could also vary in range depending on the device the app is on and its capabilities.  That remains another uncontrolled variable that could be evaluated, but not by me.  iPhone only here.

I agree a comparison would be interesting.  However, measuring the performance of a system based on RF can be difficult.  Each environment is different.  For all we know, GRJ has a ham next door emitting all sorts of radio interference and Madock lives next to the national radio quiet zone.  Additionally, each device used (for Bluetooth operation) will have it's own idiosyncrasies. 

My point being, the results of any test, if not conducted in a "perfect RF environment" and with a variety of smart devices would be just as anecdotal as the experiences that have been shared so far.

What is undeniable, is that the operation using Bluetooth is not consistent across all users.

I'm still searching but I thought I saw a post that Lionel is updating the Bluetooth devices in its lineup. I thought it was from Dave Olson but I haven't found it yet. Maybe I'm hallucinating again.