LIONEL! A Legacy J3a PLease!!!

With a PT Tender !!

Sunset/3rd Rail already did one,,,,,,,,with the PT tender!

quote:

Yea but it has old leftover railsounds and won't negotiate turns less than 0-54.

A correct NYC whistle, and 4-chuffs per revolution is more than enough for me! All the extra "steam effects", which is actually smoke fluid and tends to mess up weathering, are not on my want/need list anyway.

Concerning 054 curves with a correct PT tender, could be a bit of a stretch also. But my layout is minimum 072 so I prefer the extra detailing of 3rd Rail brass anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by rrgeorge:
With a PT Tender !!

I was thinking of you and this response when I saw this thread earlier before anyone had responded

Still hoping Lionel gets this message! Maybe offer a choice of standard or pt tender, and a B&A version as well........it would be a sell out $$$$ I'm sure

 

 

 

The only J3a I would be interested in would be one of the ten Dreyfus Hudsons.  I would love to have a Vision version of that.  Any other looks far too close to what I already have . . . 

1 - Absolutely - where do I order it?; Lionel's J3a captures the look of the loco better than anyone else's - except for that awful tender/cab separation...this is why I dislike wireless tethers; had it a simple drawbar and wire tether (what's the big deal...?), that issue would

have been solved years ago. And why do the Lionel Dreyfi-Hudsons (Century and ESE) not

have this distance issue, really?

 

2 - I also have the 3rd Rail version of the later J3a/PT/Worthington/moved power reverse,

and, once I got it to operating/not derailing (the almost inevitable 3rd Rail/Moto-Tool adventure), I love it - but it's a bit flimsy and just misses that Oh, yeah! look of the

Lionel. (BTW - I've got 072 curves.)

 

3 - Lionel would need to address the above-mentioned FWH and power reverse/walkway

change to get it right. Their new GS2/GS6/GS64 locos with model-specific detailing

indicates that somebody at Lionel is paying attention, so there is hope for a reaonably

accurate later J3a.

 

4 - Also - I just finished my Lionel ESE to Mercury paint project. Former ESE Hudson

5429 is now gray where it should be, still stainless where it should be (with shortened

firebox skirting - 2 screws! - thanks, Lionel), and is pulling a PT tender - though a plain

black 12-wheel tender would/could have been proper, also.

 

Lionel/MTH needs to make the J3a Mercury...'course, I've already got one now...

 

 

You mean something like this?

 

 

 

Various smoke box covers and drivers are still available as is legacy control. Why wait for Lionel to produce it? BTW many J3a's were still sporting marker lights and marker light brackets as late as 1955.

 

Pete

The NYC J-3a Hudsons never had marker lights when new. During their last years on MCRR and the Big Four, they were not equipped with marker lights either, with one exception. I have one photo of unstreamlined 5451 at Indianapolis, IN in 1956 and it does have marker lights.

I have over 400 photos of J-3a Hudsons down to their last weeks in service on the main line, Michigan Central and Big Four, and there are NO photos of J-3 Hudsons with markers except as noted above. There is not one photo of a J-3a with markers in any of the NYC books that I have, so the claim that these engines ever had markers is simply not true. I confirmed this with the former President of NYCSHS, who told me that the J-3a Hudsons were the first NYC locomotives that were not built with marker lights.

Donald Krofta's film "Steam and Diesels on the NYC 1955" has a number of shots of J3's with markers including 5401. It can be seen ~2:58 mark on this Youtube clip. Many more examples can be seen in this film.

 

 

Pete

Hudson5432,

 

I assume you are talking about the CLASS LIGHTS on the front of the smoke box. Did the NYC have MARKER LIGHTS on the rear of the tender?

The old ones look and sound great,but its that lousy 2 chuffs and puffer smoke that shys me away. In  addition the early oddyssey is no where near as good as the latest offerings. Lastly some of these have been fetching rediculous prices with folks getting tired of waiting.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONEL...INT-NR-/280962038876

quote:

Donald Krofta's film "Steam and Diesels on the NYC 1955" has a number of shots of J3's with markers including 5401. It can be seen ~2:58 mark on this Youtube clip.

Did anyone notice the different (at least to me) type of centipede tender on 5401? As for the class lights, the smokebox looks kind of naked on those that don't have them.

Jim, There were at least 4 different variations of the PT tender. The difference in capacities would be apparent. Staufer's "Thoroughbreds" details the differences.

 

Pete

Pete,

Other than listing the statistics of the PT tenders, Staufer's book is totally lacking of any photos of side by side comparisions of each so that someone could see the difference between the five classes.

Well, if you don't mind the inverted U shaped boiler and the mis-shapen feedwater heater. And while it isn't the shell, Lionel REALLY needs to get rid of the Philips head screws on the driver axle ends.

Did you notice that the 5401 is not a J3a?   John

Exactly. There isn't one J3a in that entire clip.

Boy, this "u-shaped boiler" thing...anyway, glad that these were caught:
- class lights on front, marker lights on rear...again
- the J3a's were not built with class lights; when I got my 5444 a few years back,
I had removed them and patched up within 24 hours. The 5433 model never had them.

- BUT! I have seen no mention here of the fact that Lionel put a Sunbeam-style headlight
on their J3a, when, so far as I know, they were built with the later Pyle headlight (tapered
body). The J1 and J2 classes had Sunbeams originally, though. The J3 was 11 years newer
than the J1.

Funny how the U-boiler just registered with me as part of model-making, but I took a
file to that headlight to make it Pyle-like, right after I made the class lights disappear.

2 chuffs, U-boiler, driver screw heads, slightly (!) off FWH end shape...still my favorite
Lionel steam loco of all time. Sitting next to the 3rd Rail J3a (beautiful), the Lionel
version just has a little more...presence.

Anyway, LIonel - correct a few little things, plus that blasted yard-long drawbar, and I'm all about a Later J3a.

Hot,

Yes, I was referring to the front classification lights on the J-3a. I believe all NYC engines had, at the very least, brackets for merker lights on the rear of the tender. Thanks for correcting my nomenclature here.

 

Re the PT tanks, Lans Vail, the former Prez of the NYCSHS, authored an article in the Central Headlight magazine several years ago (3Q1985) outlining the differences in the PT tanks. Briefly, they are as follows:

PT1, Qty 4 built by Beech Grove Shops in April, 1943, no overflow control (ie top cistern). Originally applied to 5418, 5453, 5452, and 5450, all J-3a.

PT2, Qty 1 built by Beech Grove Shops, revised coal and water capacity (21000gal/25 tons) vs std 18,000gal, 46 tons. Built 8/43. Assigned to J-1E Big Four Hudson #5401 from build to probable retirement. (NYC records show no other engine ever had this tender). Hud 5401 was on one leg of the james Whitcomb Riley and this tender supposedly eliminated one intermediate water stop. No water scoop. (There were no track pans on Big Four.)

PT3, Qty 10 built by Beech Grove 5/44-7/45. First applied to five streamlined J-3a Dreyfuss and qty 5 to Hudsons in the number series 5264-5273. No overflow control as built but overflow control cistern and overflow pipes added later.

PT4, Qty 50 built by Lima 11/44-7/45. Applied to both J-1 and J-3 Hudsons when built and per RR records, only four ever were applied to five different Niagaras, including engines 6024, 6023, 6004, 6006, and 6013. These were built with overflow control cisterns and overflow pipes on each side.

PT5, Qty 26 built by Alco and applied to Niagaras 6000-6025 when new. Had overflow control and train control box recessed into the body and accessed via a door on the rear side sheet near the ladder. (PT1,2, and 3 had the train box on the tender water deck.) Only two of these PT5 found their way to four different Hudsons including 5443, 5236, 5451, and 5257.

PT6, Qty one built by Alco for poppet valve Niagara #5500. Reapplied to Niagara #6000 in May, 1952. Had revised coal and water capacity (16000gal/47 tons). Had overflow control, two stoker screws, and no coal pusher.

All of the PT tenders included a door on the side sheet to access the stoker engine.

 

Most of you know this but the number series for the J-3a is 5405-5454, Qty 50. Anything else on NYC is either a J-1 or a J-2 (B&A).

I did the same thing with mine--removed the class lamps and tapered the headlight. That Sunbeam is just so wrong on a NYC Hudson. Unfortunately, Lionel made the same mistake with the new 700E--for some reason.

I believe these were a result of Lionel offering tha ability to change the scullins out for the  seperate sale optional boxpock drivers for the 28072/5444 hudson. I think they're even still available on Lionels parts site. I would "hope" the screws would be gone if Lionel rereleased this hudson, I've not seen them on any other Lionel steamer though I could be wrong. Interesting discussion  on this "all". While it has its flaws the tooling I posted above IMO is more worthy of "vision line" features than the antiquated 700e. Having said that, I'd be more than satisfied  with an updated sound, speed control, and a decent smoke unit in lieu of "vision" extras.

 

 

 

Lionel seems to be "running through" their old tooling from the past 10-12 years. I'll keep my hopes up... if not, this thread will get another bump from the back this time next year.

I agree.

I would definitely buy a Legacy J3a, both unstreamlined and Dreyfuss if offered. If only one I'd prefer the unstreamlined. A Vision Line version would even be better.

How often did the PT tenders have to scoop water.  Seems the thing is carrying mostly COAL!

Well, THAT was the idea, since you can NOT "take coal on the move" but you sure can take water at every track pan. Taking water at every track pan, insured plenty of water in the tender, although maybe not full, more than enough to get to the next track pan. The New York Central had it all figured out pretty well!

Steam engines tend to consume water at a sigificantly faster rate than coal.  For that reason by design water storage capacity tends to be larger than coal/oil in a tender.  Usually the coal/oil is stored in the upper quadrant of the tender (hence the perceived prominence of coal for coal burners) while the water typically occupies the lower/back quadrant.

If anyone is interested;  There is a rare picture of a J3a Hudson with Classification lights.  It also has a Selkirk front.  It's #5451@ Indy in Oct 1955.  It is the picture for Oct. 2013 New York Central Historical Society calendar.  Very nice calendar.    John