Lionel Barrel Loader - Need Help - Solved!

Usually, on the post war version anyways, a lower voltage works much better.

Yes, that is a diode. The Postwar version had a rectifier disk in the base too.

When I had a 362 barrel loader with a bad disk on my layout, I just wired up an external rectifier diode.

I guess a bad diode could cause the problem you are experiencing. Do you know how to test the diode?

Last I knew, Radio Shack still carried suitable replacements. Bring the old one with you , and get one that is a similar size. That is a 3 amp, 100 PIV one. A 50 PIV one would be fine too. Here is a link to the datasheet

Guys  A diode lets current flow only one deriction. If you want to test to see if working Take a test lamp with will only light the lamp if the current is flowing in one direction.

If the light light up in both derictions the diode is no good anymore.

Good luck 

The 1N5401 diode is still a common part. Radio Shack may still have them? It is rated at 100v as C.W stated. The higher the last number the higher the voltage 1=100v, 2=200v, etc. They are all the same amperage, 3 amps. You could use a IN5401 or up as they are all higher voltage. Usually not a good idea to go to a lower voltage.

I would send you one, but all I have is 1N5400's which are only 50v. For model trains stuff I think this would more than adequate, but as I said it is usually not a good idea to use lesser rated components for replacements. If one of the electronics guys like GRJ or stan2004 see this and advise the 50v is ok, I would be happy to send you one.

Otherwise, here is one from Digi-Key: http://www.digikey.com/product...N5401FSCT-ND/1532774

They have low shipping rates on small orders if you use USPS First Class, and they ship very fast. Would be nice if you had something else to order with it though, like some bridge rectifiers, resistors, LEDs or something you might happen to be needing. Good to have some extra parts on hand sometimes. 

Keep track of the silver band end and where is was connected, it needs to go back the same way or it won't work. 

quote:

Guys  A diode lets current flow only one deriction. If you want to test to see if working Take a test lamp with will only light the lamp if the current is flowing in one direction.

 

If the light light up in both derictions the diode is no good anymore.

This is true when you test with a D.C. power source. Most of our trains have A.C. power sources. With an AC source the lamp will light regardless of the direction, even with a good diode.

quote:

Keep track of the silver band end and where is was connected, it needs to go back the same way or it won't work. 

On the original Postwar 362 barrel loader, it would not matter which way the diode is installed.

Are the barrels shiny?

A common problem if they are.

Sand all the shine off the barrel ribs, then they should go up the ramp.

I am not as well versed in electronics as some are around here and I don't understand this one, could you explain further?

The diode is in there to reduce the number of magnetic pulses in half.  This is to give the spring time to return and the barrels time to move.  It does not matter if you kill the top of the wave or the bottom, just as long as you have only half as many peaks.  That is why it does not matter which way the diode goes in.

Thanks to everyone who replied.  Would an Ohm meter work to test it?  I tried using one and I got no reading the one way, but when I flipped it around I got some readings.  I guess I can order one and just see if it helps.  Not sure what else to do. 

Ohm meter test should work and it sounds like yours is good from your readings.

David, thanks for the further explanation, I figured it had something to do with half the AC, but was having trouble picturing the workings of it.

Most meters have a diode setting, but reading noting one way and a resistance reading the other way sure sounds like the diode is good.

The fact that they're vibrating suggests what others have stated, either the barrels are a bit on the slippery side or you have too much vibration, or both.  If you have them really bouncing around, they don't go up the ramp.  Mine works best around 11-12 volts, they run right up the ramp.

Is the loader screwed down to the layout?  You may find loosening or tightening the screws could make a difference.  RICH

I tried it from 8 -18 volts and anything below like 14 they barely move at all.  If I put the barrels on the ramp manually they actual look like they are trying to go the opposite direction.  I made sure its level and I tried screwing it down to platform at different tightness's.  Adjusted the coil a million times but there only so many gaps you can adjust it to.  I'm baffled.  This is such a simple design.  The only thing left is the coil itself.  Not sure what else to try.  Hate to throw away a brand new barrel loader but right now its as useful as a brick!  haha

Unfortunately I can't help with the solution (though I am taking notes on all the suggestions!), but I can say I had a similar experience with the re-issued Barrel Loader when I bought it.

I never was able to get it to work (same general results as you describe), so I ended up putting it back in the box for a project another day. 

You are not alone with this one.  One of my few complaints out of all of the  re-issued Post War classic accessories.  Most of my other items worked flawlessly, or at least very well.

-Dave

Have you hooked the diode back up, or are you running without it?

 It really shouldn't have been laying at the bottom and worked "right".

 It would have to be in series (inline) with the coil.

Coil gap should be about a 1/32.... hold on....

http://olsenstoy.com//cd/accs/acc362p1.pdf there you go.

Maybe it was modified or "repaired?

Spring too strong on some? Bent wrong? funny gap?(you want parallel closed).

 Here is a thought. Unscrew the platform spring mounting, and check the springs are near parallel to the mounts when loose. The springs tensions fighting each other, might be hindering spring operation.   

Is the ramp slick?

 Try something sticky on a barrel. Something sugary would rinse off.

Or, if the barrels are sanded too smooth, alcohol, or a short soak in hot water should raise the wood grain, creating a fuzz.   

I think it is always a good idea to read the Lionel factory service manual page(s). Adriatic has already provided a link.

When I adjust a 362 barrel loader (Postwar), I first make certain that the screws which attach the ramp to the base are tight, and that the diode is good.

I set the power supply voltage to around 12 volts.

Then I adjust the gap by moving the coil until it is just far enough away to avoid buzzing. (It will buzz if you turn up the voltage too high).

Also:

As noted in the service manual: Do not fasten down tightly.

I also wonder whether you are using a traditional transformer with a sine wave output.

Who knows how this accessory would work with a different type of power supply.

I fired mine up, at 12V with any of the 20 or so barrels I have, they walk right up the ramp.  As mentioned, you don't want it screwed tightly to the layout, I actually have it operating without being screwed down at all and it works great.  There is a set of track clips that came with the original PW units, they space it from tracks and hold it in place.  The barrel loader in that case is not screwed down at all.  There are also some rubber grommets that it sits on.

Sorry everyone if I was not clear.

The diode was not loose it was attached.  Its a brand new unit. It was sealed in box, I opened it from its factory seal, so it was not used or repaired.  The diode came off when I was taking the bottom plate off the base, the wire is super thin.   I'm using a ZW-L transformer.  It's not fastened to anything, I tried that both ways.  The ramp is brand new untouched so it is not slick and they actually used a flat finish yellow paint on the remakes.  I have shiny and also the non shiny barrels.  But that does not matter because the barrels don't even make it to the ramp, they never leave the loading platform at the bottom.  I have tried voltage from 10 all the way up to 18 to even just see if I could get them to move.  Even at 18 they just bounce around. I made sure the plate is completely vertical with the coil, 1/32 gap. I'll post a video later.

I found this comment about the Lionel ZW_L transformer in another OGR thread:

"Lionel uses a modified Sine wave output and limits voltage to 18V.  Lionel engine with command can be damaged with voltage above 18Vs."

If this comment is correct, I suggest trying a different transformer. Maybe the Barrel loader will not work properly with a modified sine wave power source.
What are other people using to power their 362 barrel loaders?

Here is a thread on power supplies: thread link

Here is the utube video referenced in the other thread. the embedded one does not work for me: video link

The video confirms that the ZW-L uses chopped sine wave. And I would not be surprised if this is the reason your barrel loader does not work properly.

I can't imagine how the modified wave would affect the barrel loader adversely.  I ran mine just now off the accessory output of the CW-80, also a chopped waveform transformer.

All of Lionel's modern variable transformers use chopped waveforms as far as I know.  The only modern electronically controlled transformer in common use with what passes for a pure sine wave is the MTH Z-4000.

quote:

I can't imagine how the modified wave would affect the barrel loader adversely.  I ran mine just now off the accessory output of the CW-80, also a chopped waveform transformer.

Is the accessory output of a CW-80 also chopped? If not, I wonder what would happen if you tried using the train control output terminals. 

I would not expect the pattern of vibration to be the same with a chopped wave form.
After all, the 362 will not work properly without a good rectifier diode. And I have noticed that a number of other vibrator powered accessories work differently on 1/2 wave DC. For example, a 3520 rotating searchlight will rotate in the opposite direction if is it powered with 1/2 wave.

Just a hunch really, if the accessory output of a CW-80 is also chopped wave, then that certainly is not the issue.

Did you read the operating and troubleshooting tips in the owners guide about how to adjust the ramp? That may help. The ramp may need the adjustment. I know you said in your first post you made the standard adjustment to the ramp. These are pretty trouble free accessories, But the barrels shouldn't just dance on the platform.

C.W. and Sean:

I have both a post-war 362 and a modern 6-32996 barrel loader on my layout.  My layout is powered by post-war ZW’s which according to the linked video produce a SMOOTH sine wave.  But these loaders and essentially all of my operating accessories receive their power through a PM-1 Powermaster which according to that video produces a CHOPPED sine wave.  I use a CAB-1 to adjust the voltage and both of my barrel loaders are screwed down and work fine at about 12-14 volts using the PM-1 delivering a chopped sine wave.

Before adding TMCC and the new barrel loader, I used the ZW directly for the postwar barrel loader and it worked fine. 

Now, why do I have two barrel loaders?  The loaders are located in two completely different sections of the layout so I can move barrels from one section to the other section rather than simply unloading them and loading them back into the same car on the same track.  I do that with logs, coal, culverts and horses, too.

HTH,

Bill

The accessory output of the CW-80 has an identical output circuit and controls as the track power, so yes, it's a chopped waveform.

Running my remake barrel loader off a postwar ZW. I seem to remember the loader had to be level for it to work right.

I put a level on it , its totally level.  Even if I tilt it towards the ramp, its a no go.

I'm having difficulty imagining what the issue is.  It seems you have plenty of vibration.  I have noted that too much drive will keep the barrels from advancing up the ramp, they bounce all around instead of just walking up the ramp.  The gap adjustment may be at fault, I'm presuming you have the Barrel Loader Instruction Sheet, right?

^Now THAT's what I'm talkin about, real loading and unloading scenario's, kudo's. ^

That being said, I agree with gunrunner, if the barrel loader is vibrating, it's working.

It just needs adjustment one way or another, as another poster put it, shiny "finished" barrels may be too slick to go up the ramp and need a bit of sanding to rough them up. Otherwise, too much vibration will also prevent them from traveling up the ramp, as will to little vibration.

Sometimes you gotta play with it to reach that "sweet spot" where the barrels will travel as intended.....

FWIW, my set of brand new shiny barrels walked up the ramp just as good as some of the older beat-up ones.  Truthfully, I didn't see any difference in performance between the two.  If I crank up the voltage too high, they jump around like they're nuts, and also occasionally hop off the ramp.

After the Cattle Car & Platform, maybe one of the most frustrating Lionel accessories out there. But once you get it fine tuned they usually work great.

Lots of discussion about adjusting the ramp iself. What I found with mine is that they respond quite a bit to how they are attached to the layout. Screw it down too tightly and it impacts performance. Same if it's too loose. What I did with mine was to place it in position next to the track and I used a few screws around the base to sort of "fence" it in. Did NOT use any screws in the holes in the base. Play around with it and see what happens. 

And fine tuning voltage is absolutely key. I know that's been mentioned above but can't reiterate enough how having a separate variable voltage source is a real need.

Wow what would cause the barrels to look like they want to go in the  opposite direction? 

HAHA, I know everyone thinks I'm crazy.  I bought a new diode and going to try that tonight.  This is not rocket science.  So simple, yet can't get it to work yet.

I'll post video if I can't get it working so everyone can see.

Well, the reason they go up the ramp is how the ramp vibrates.  It actually goes back and forth, not up and down.  So when it moves in the direction of the high side, the barrels tend to lose their "grip" on the ramp and then the ramp comes back toward the low side and they move a tiny bit up as it's going in the opposite direction that the barrel's inertia is taking it.  Remember, it's vibrating 60 times a second, so they don't move much for each vibration.

If they ramp is vibrating too violently, they tend to bounce around more and either don't go anywhere of jump off the sides.

At 10 VAC on my true-RMS meter, the barrels have trouble getting out of the chute, they tend to stick partially tilted and the following barrel holds them in place.  If they make it, they slowly make their way up the ramp.  Between 11 and 11.5 volts, it works pretty well, marginally better at 11.5.  At 12-12.5 and over, it's getting too wild, and by the time I get to 14.5-15, the barrels sometimes jump off the ramp sides before they get all the way up.  Even if they don't jump off, they are bouncing all over the place, looks pretty comical.

I sure don't think you are crazy!!... until I read your post, I thought maybe I was the only one suffering with this problem on the re-issue.  I had chalked it up to not messing with it enough.

I also messed with the gap as mentioned in the instructions, though the methods for doing that in a measurable way seemed difficult, IIRC.  I did not go too far with experiments regarding screwing it down to the table, though  - so I will be very interested in learning if that ends up being the key to all of this.

-Dave

I confess, mine is an original, the box says $7.95 on it.   I haven't actually seen the remake up close.

Not saying it's not the gap adjustment, but I found that whole process to be pretty much worthless. Of course, if it's way off from the factory setting that could be a factor.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, play around with how your loader is attached -- or not attached -- to the layout surface. That, along with finding the voltage sweet spot, is how I resolved issues with mine. 

Are the spring mounting brackets both bent leaning forward? Are the rivets tight? Have you tried the coil adjustment screw moving the coil closer or farther away?

 Do you have a rectifier disc just to try in place of the diode and see if it works better?

I am wondering if there could be an internal mechanical cause for the problem. Something restricting the vibratory movement, or something that isn't properly secured, allowing movement in a wrong direction?

I'm interested to see how this comes out. I have one of the new-style barrel loaders. It's in place on the layout, but I haven't tried to operate it because I don't have the accessory control panel and wiring in place. Hopefully it will work when I get it fully installed. 

Problem solved!  I want to thank everyone so much for all their comments and help.  So I figured out what was going on.

I tried a new rectifier diode, no difference (which I had suspected).  I tried adjusting the coil and the ramp, made sure the armature was centered exactly on the coil, perfectly parallel with the coil, etc.  Still no luck.  I remember John saying his works great around 12 volts.  But mine was jumping and buzzing like crazing at just 8 volts, almost as soon as there was enough power to power up the coil.  At 12 volts it was jumping off the table.  All the instructions say about a 1/32 gap, so that was what I was trying to get close too.  But then I thought, how can the PW version be using 12 volts and mine goes crazy at 8, makes no sense.  So I decided to make the gap between the coil and the armature wide.  I set it to 1/8" a pretty large gap.  Bingo!  It works!  Also the loader comes with Non Shiny barrels, but my barrel cars have shiny ones.  I scuffed up the rings on the shiny barrels too and that made them fly right up the ramp even more.  Here is what the gap looks like.  It's huge.

The only thing I can think of is this coil in the reissued version is more powerful than its suppose to be, so the 1/32 gap does not work.  Basically when you power up the ramp and no barrels are on it you should not hear anything except a slight hum, no buzzing.  I was hearing crazy rattling at just 8 volts.

Here it is in action.