Lionel Base 3: Worth the Upgrade? Video Review & Discussion

Got it. Love it. Use the app.

Coming from the live music production world, app updates and revisions to both software and firmware is normal.

I run DCS and Legacy/Base 3, and I am incorporating my new WTIU into the setup as well.

For me it was not worth it. In fact, it's a total boat anchor at this point and Lionel really screwed this up badly. The day I crashed my nice 3rd Rail M1b into the side of a moving boxcar was the day I disconnected it. I think it was a huge mistake for them to cram the Lionchief  stuff into the works. The app is awful, overcrowded and unintuitive. I can't believe Lionel made something that made my layout actually run worse. I've never hooked up a piece of Lionel TMCC/Legacy hardware and had that happen! They would have done well to study the good works of TMCC and Legacy before they attempted this. Simplicity made that stuff great. I had high hopes for this system and thought it could future-proof my layout since they didn't want to update Legacy properly but right now I am absolutely unimpressed. In any case I am having way more fun with Blunami!

Until I can do ALL the CAB2 functions on the CAB3 app,  no.    I still must use my CAB2 to run my postwar/conventional engines.

If anything this thing gave me more appreciation for the good engineering that went into TMCC and early Legacy. All I really wanted to do was turn off those godawful creaking and groaning sounds in the new stuff and maybe get the correct whistle once in a while. Instead, they decided to give you an app (WOW an app OMG!!) to gloss over how stale they let Legacy get over the years.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

For me it was not worth it. In fact, it's a total boat anchor at this point and Lionel really screwed this up badly. The day I crashed my nice 3rd Rail M1b into the side of a moving boxcar was the day I disconnected it. I think it was a huge mistake for them to cram the Lionchief  stuff into the works. The app is awful, overcrowded and unintuitive. I can't believe Lionel made something that made my layout actually run worse. I've never hooked up a piece of Lionel TMCC/Legacy hardware and had that happen! They would have done well to study the good works of TMCC and Legacy before they attempted this. Simplicity made that stuff great. I had high hopes for this system and thought it could future-proof my layout since they didn't want to update Legacy properly but right now I am absolutely unimpressed. In any case I am having way more fun with Blunami!

That's awful!  Sorry that happened with your M1b.  Were you using the app to control things or one of the remotes?  I've run into issues controlling things with the app so that's another reason I'm using a CAB-1L pretty much all the time with this system.  One of the things I didn't like with the app was the "emergency stop" button doesn't work whereas it functions fine on my remote.

At this time I only have one BluNami controlleed engine and I LOVE it!  I only wish the BluNami could trick my Base 3 into thinking it was a Lionel engine so I could control it through my CAB-1L.  As much of an improvement the BluNami app is to control over the CAB-3, I still like to do everything from one remote if I can help it.  That'd be a slick feature if BluNami could work with other control systems.  The speed control on the BluNami is probably one of the best I've seen!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

If anything this thing gave me more appreciation for the good engineering that went into TMCC and early Legacy. All I really wanted to do was turn off those godawful creaking and groaning sounds in the new stuff and maybe get the correct whistle once in a while. Instead, they decided to give you an app (WOW an app OMG!!) to gloss over how stale they let Legacy get over the years.

You hit the nail on the head with the background sounds.  It's not even so much that they included background sounds, but they're all the same for every engine, be it diesel or steam!

I’ve been very happy with the Base 3. I started my layout at the time Lionel had discontinued the Cab 2, and as we know, it became impossible to purchase one at a reasonable price. I ran my Legacy and LC+2.0 engines with the universal remote or LC app. With that being said, it’s been a pleasure working with the Base/Cab 3 even though the app isn’t fully functional (yet).

Gene

@VHubbard posted:

Until I can do ALL the CAB2 functions on the CAB3 app,  no.    I still must use my CAB2 to run my postwar/conventional engines.

I've never used the Base/Cab2 before.  What functions can you access with the Cab2 that aren't available on the Cab3 App?

The major intent of the BASE3 and CAB3 Combo was to replace the no-longer-manufactured CAB2 (#991) and its #992 Legacy Base.

While the BASE3 can be used as a reasonable functional substitute for the #992 Legacy Base, the CAB2 handheld still provides the most reliable train control.

IMHO, there remain too many issues with the BASE3 Tab on the CAB3 app (as reported in multiple OGR Forum Threads) to recommend the upgrade if you already own the CAB2 and its Legacy base. 

Hopefully, Lionel will continue to invest in the necessary software programming to make the CAB3 app work as well or better than the CAB2 some day.

No plans to upgrade.  My 990's Base2 is still going strong as is its CAB2, and I bought a 993 CAB2 as a spare.  I love the CAB2 and I'm trying to get *less* apps in my life, not more.  So between my working Legacy hardware and new stuff like Blunami and Dave's amazing Python Legacy control code as well as the feedback from early adopters, I see zero reasons to move to a Base3, now or in the future.  Just my $0.02.

@Bruce Brown posted:

The major intent of the BASE3 and CAB3 Combo was to replace the no-longer-manufactured CAB2 (#991) and its #992 Legacy Base.

While the BASE3 can be used as a reasonable functional substitute for the #992 Legacy Base, the CAB2 handheld still provides the most reliable train control.

IMHO, there remain too many issues with the BASE3 Tab on the CAB3 app (as reported in multiple OGR Forum Threads) to recommend the upgrade if you already own the CAB2 and its Legacy base.

Hopefully, Lionel will continue to invest in the necessary software programming to make the CAB3 app work as well or better than the CAB2 some day.

A common theme I've observed is folks that love the Base 3 don't have the Base/CAB 2.  Unsurprisingly those that don't like the Base 3 already have a fully functioning Base/CAB 2.

Lionel is still making trains, picking up new customers, and chugging along.  So for folks already established in the hobby with the previous Legacy equipment it seems like there's been a step back from that.

But for newer operators that don't want to pay $990 for a 990 (or $992 for your 992), the Base 3 makes more sense on the surface.  Seems like any of the issues people have had with the Base 3 have mostly been with the CAB-3 App.  I see far fewer issues and complaints from operators using a CAB-1L or CAB-2 to control the Base 3.

@Dadified posted:

Seems like any of the issues people have had with the Base 3 have mostly been with the CAB-3 App.  I see far fewer issues and complaints from operators using a CAB-1L or CAB-2 to control the Base 3.

You are correct on this point.  The BASE3 has been pretty stable, and pretty much everything seems to work using the CAB1L or CAB2 with the BASE3.  I haven't tried the Lionchief stuff from the Legacy remote through the BASE3, but I'll get around to that someday.

@Dadified posted:

A common theme I've observed is folks that love the Base 3 don't have the Base/CAB 2.  Unsurprisingly those that don't like the Base 3 already have a fully functioning Base/CAB 2.

Be careful with assumptions based on what you read here.

I  personally know many people who had and have the 990 system, and have for years.  I am one of them.  I got my first TMCC set back in 1995.  Eventually added DCS when it came around.   Then replaced the basic TMCC with Legacy.

And now Base 3/App, and WTIU

I still have all my remotes from MTH and Lionel.

I have my layout wired and powered in such a way I can run my old conventional trains when I want.

Reality was that there wasn't going to be a practical and cost effective way to continue Legacy, so the Base 3 is the result.  While they were doing it, they made the decision to integrate LionChief into the system.  That makes sense I think given that LionChief is the introduction to Lionel in the current marketplace.  The new battery powered sets will also be accessible through the Base 3 according to Ryan Kunkle. 

What this did however, is increase complexity strikingly and create high expectations for the first iteration of the app.  This has failed some folks with sophisticated needs although it works for most basic functions from what I hear.  So time and evolution will address the needs of the 99% of the folks who just need something that works like Legacy/TMCC with a few extra features.  Turns out that introducing the Base 3 and Cab 3 app into existing layouts has teething problems for many.  That's the price of progress I suppose, and change.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

You're an angry little man.

It's fine you don't like it,  but to go the lengths you do to disparage a product or company with the consistent, uncivil discourse is odd.  Very muck like when you called out the YouTube creators who are a part of this forum.

You stated your displeasure.  Fine.   You then doubled down with the 'This Is Crap' video.

@Dadified posted:

A common theme I've observed is folks that love the Base 3 don't have the Base/CAB 2.  Unsurprisingly those that don't like the Base 3 already have a fully functioning Base/CAB 2.

Well, your question was, "is it worth the upgrade?"

It's not an upgrade if you don't have a control system to begin with.  It is if you've got Base2 / CAB2 or CAB-1L.

I haven't heard anyone say that they love the Base3 app so much they're selling off their CAB2s -- quite the opposite.  That's probably the most important data point IMHO.

@EscapeRocks posted:

You're an angry little man.

It's fine you don't like it,  but to go the lengths you do to disparage a product or company with the consistent, uncivil discourse is odd.  Very muck like when you called out the YouTube creators who are a part of this forum.

You stated your displeasure.  Fine.   You then doubled down with the 'This Is Crap' video.

Try decaf.

@EscapeRocks posted:

You're an angry little man.

It's fine you don't like it,  but to go the lengths you do to disparage a product or company with the consistent, uncivil discourse is odd.  Very muck like when you called out the YouTube creators who are a part of this forum.

You stated your displeasure.  Fine.   You then doubled down with the 'This Is Crap' video.

The thing is, everything he has said is correct.

Frankly, though there are some nice guys at Lionel, I don't think they are short either the engineering acumen or manpower to make something as capable as the original TMCC or Legacy bases.

The CAB3 app wasn't good from day one. It's like they tried to cram the entire CAB2 interface into one screen using the look and feel of the iCab app. Swiping to change screens is absolutely horrible as it's way too easy to accidentally tap a function while trying to swipe. I know they added a screen change button but how do you mess up the most basic feature of smart devices like swiping?

The CAB3 needs a serious overhaul before I'd consider it for mainstream use on my layout. Ditch the slider controls, it's too hard to make single speedstep & precise movements or at least add a plus and minus button to make for precision control. Redesign the entire interface to make functions more intuitive so we don't have to play the guessing game of what an icon means by trial and error.

If you don't have a cab2, and upgrading from an original TMCC system, you're not getting much. The MSRP for the Base3 and cab1L is over $750 and you can't do much more than the original cab1 other than get a partial quilling whistle and a way to run Lionchief stuff that doesn't have TMCC with a cab1L.

At this point it’s just a very expensive Base 2 replacement. I was looking forward to what they could do with the app until I got it. I was hoping their approach to the app would be as creative as the original TMCC and early Legacy products but it just tuned into a poorly performing CAB-2 emulator. They just tried to cram too much into it imo. Maybe if they made a Legacy only app it might be worth putzing with again. For now the Base 3 is just laying around under my layout doing nothing.

My TMCC/Cab1 was sitting under my layout doing nothing for a few weeks after I got the Base 3 going.  Then I donated it to my local club and now there's two layouts that have command control there.  There's all gauges represented at the clubhouse here, a few tables of N-Scale, S Gauge, G scale, HO of course, and three O-Gauge but only one of em had command control on it.  Thought it'd be nice to get a second one going!

Kids like to use the Lionchief on this one, but it was nice to finally get my Legacy Challenger going along with them.  It's a neat layout and I find myself gravitating towards it every time we visit.  I think it's the elevation changes that I like most.

For those who have had issues with the Base 3, I'd say give it a shot with one of the remotes.  I am sort of bummed that there's issues to fix with the app after such a lengthy wait, but I'm hoping they get it sorted out.  I think the Base 3 successfully covering all of the control types is possible.  Much like how TMCC and Legacy control revolutionized a lot of control system stuff before, the plan for Base 3 was ambitious.  Just needs more time and troubleshooting.

For me, the "worth the upgrade" question is simply yes.  I have the original TMCC and 990 systems.  When Lionel made the move to Lionchief for all but the most expensive pieces, I hated the idea of needing a separate remote for each.  For starter sets, I thought the remote was a great idea but I always wished Lionel would include some form of neutered Legacy control for their mid range offerings.  With Base 3, I can now run nearly any of the Lionel offerings with 1 system. 

My 990 hasn't been out of its box in years.  At one point, the CAB 2 was damaged with some sort of liquid that seeped through the floor above where I had it stored.  Lionel wouldn't fix it because it was liquid damage.  I managed to get it to like 99% but that combined with the limited Legacy offerings I could run (no room for O72) I stoped buying Lionel motive power for the most part.

With the new Base 3, I've only run a Lionmaster Bigboy with it but from a usability perspective, I understand why folks still like the CAB 2.  I feel like if Lionel (MTH too) would expand their Beta programs to include more people that actually run this stuff, many of the usability issues with the Apps would get worked out sooner.  I've been in IT for years and when working on any sort of new system that will be interactive, I always call out "User Experience".  No matter how good it works if it's crappy to use, no one will like it or want to use it.

Tony

The MTH DCS app has worked rather well for me. It's intuitive, runs the trains, doesn't try to cram too much onto one screen, yet can do more and looks better than the MTH remote.

Lionel should consider a total revamp of the CAB3 app and take an approach like MTH. Don't try to make it look like the CAB2, just make it functional for ALL the things you're trying to do (LCS, Legacy, TMCC, Lionchief, etc), and let it land on multiple screens.

How about making a real remote again.

@Andrew B. posted:

The MTH DCS app has worked rather well for me. It's intuitive, runs the trains, doesn't try to cram too much onto one screen, yet can do more and looks better than the MTH remote.

Lionel should consider a total revamp of the CAB3 app and take an approach like MTH. Don't try to make it look like the CAB2, just make it functional for ALL the things you're trying to do (LCS, Legacy, TMCC, Lionchief, etc), and let it land on multiple screens.

Couldn't agree more.

Right now my Base3 is hooked up to my TIU/WIU via a SER2 and the MTH Legacy cable and I am running everything Legacy, TMCC, and the few LC engines with the DCS app.  The only thing that the BASE3 did for me is let me run Lionchief RF & Bluetooth engines with the DCS app, DCS remote and CAB1L.

The DCS app just works so much better than the CAB3 app right now. I hope that Lionel makes improvements and as I said before, the CAB3 app needs to be re-designed to work on a smart phone / tablet interface vs. a CAB2 handheld remote interface.

@Dadified posted:

I've never used the Base/Cab2 before.  What functions can you access with the Cab2 that aren't available on the Cab3 App?

To name a few:  Choose to have the ditch lights remain constant and not flash when the horn is triggered, RECORD (that let’s you program the train to sound horn, change speed, etc without a FasTrack Sensor Track), and AUTOMATIC SEQUENCE CONTROL (similar to RECORD but pre-programmed).

@Dadified posted:

I've never used the Base/Cab2 before.  What functions can you access with the Cab2 that aren't available on the Cab3 App?

Both the Cab1-L and Cab2 can control conventional trains using a Powermaster because CAB control mode turns momentum OFF when momentum is set to low as per the Legacy specs. However, the app doesn’t work right. It always forces you to have momentum lag. You can’t turn it off, effectively making conventional locomotive control impossible. Even the MTH DCS app gets this right. It’s just the CAB-3 app that is messed up.

For better or worse, software development is largely a "ship to learn" process these days. You don't have the time or luxury to do years of UX/UI testing to create something that works as well as a hardware device that's been in use since 2006, which was itself an iterative upgrade of a device introduced in 1994. Even in an industry like model trains where the level of user patience is extremely high, the world just doesn't work that way anymore, if it ever did. The mentality is to ship a minimally viable product and then iterate as fast as you can until you have something everyone can adopt. In the case of both MTH and Lionel, they had the additional benefit of knowing that folks like most of us already had a working system to use, and we could decide to move into the new space/hardware/tech at our own pace. New people to the hobby were going to default to the Base3/WTIU, and so most of the testing went into the most basic of features, which is perfectly logical. If all you've had is a LionChief remote, the Cab3 app is a huge upgrade. I'm betting those customers don't see the Base3 the same way that someone like me, with 300+ locomotives who's been using a CAB1/CAB2 since they were released, does.

The real question is: do you trust Lionel to get it right over time? The Legacy system wasn't perfect at the beginning, but over the years it's become pretty solid, and the known issues have been taken care of. Which is a better bet? That the oldest, most established company with the largest install base and largest revenue stream is going to figure out how to make people like us happy with an app given enough time, or that the cost/joy/pain/frustration of moving to a new hardware/app/tech stack (whether that's DCS or Blunami or DCC or whatever) will get you the experience you want. It's like betting against Apple or Google. Those companies aren't always the fastest to market, and don't always introduce new features first, but they very rarely fail to make their customer bases happy. You can always find little companies that are on the bleeding edge, but if history tells us anything it's that the tortoise really does win A LOT.

Personally, I choose to believe in Lionel. I use the CAB2 for everything, but I have the app installed and keep tabs on it to see how it's doing with each upgrade. The 4-digit addressing is a HUGE feature for me just because of the number of engines I have, and I'm curious to see whether we'll ever be able to upgrade the electronics in our older TMCC/Legacy fleet to take advantage of it. I trust that given enough time and constructive feedback, the Cab3 app will be something I have installed on dedicated devices/tablets around the train room just like I have CAB2 remotes today. We aren't there yet, but I've been in this ecosystem a looooong time, I can be patient.

I'm not as tech savvy as some of you but here are my basic thoughts based on what I have read so far.

Aside from very few instances the CAB 2 has functioned as expected. If they wanted to incorporate all of the different command systems into one I guess the CAB 3 Base is the answer, however, my biggest concern is what has been stated a few times regarding the responsiveness or lack there of the touch screen on your smart device. How many times have to touched an icon and it did not work the first time or you accidentally activated the icon next to it on your device? Or went to swipe and the screen did not change? Or how many "butt dials/thumb dials" have you had with your smart phone. This did not happen with the CAB 2 hand held controller. With the app what happened to Norm is a potential consequence.

Sure a function on the touch pad on the controller stopped functioning after being used a few thousand times, but that could be replaced. I do not know about the ability and cost of continuing to produce the electronics in the CAB 2 base and hand held but I am sure it could be done with current day parts (I remember reading a post here somewhere where some was able to reprocess the working parts of both with current day available parts.

I think in their effort to advance technology and incorporate all command systems into one place they created something that is imperfect and honestly, not practical for some of us. I tend to agree with Gunrunner, they could have introduced the CAB 3 Base and continued producing a hand-held device like the CAB 2 for those not totally comfortable with smart devices or for those who prefer the consistency of the CAB 2. Instead, if your CAB 2 dies you are SOL and have no choice but to either pay a premium for someone else's CAB 2 and use it until it dies or use a smart device.

Just my $.02.

AFAIK, about 98% of the CAB2 or CAB1L functions work as expected.  I have run a few times with my CAB1L and CAB2 on a layout with the BASE3 installed, I didn't notice any issues.  I do know there are some issues with PowerMasters and command controlled Lionel transformers, but they're fairly minor and don't affect a lot of people.

The inability to address Powermasters was a pretty big miss right away. Not being able to configure TMCC engines without losing control of them was another. Swipes weren’t mapped correctly leading to a sense of disconnect with your layout and trying to get the base online was a lot harder than it should have been. Being a longtime user of TMCC and Legacy I found this all very frustrating, especially now with all the weird shilling that goes on.  You can’t be critical anymore without some of these Lionel Karens losin’ it!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

The inability to address Powermasters was a pretty big miss right away. Not being able to configure TMCC engines without losing control of them was another. Swipes weren’t mapped correctly leading to a sense of disconnect with your layout and trying to get the base online was a lot harder than it should have been.

Well, the first CAB3 release had a bunch of major issues, no doubt about that!

I thought the swipes were one of the worst features, it was SOOO easy to swipe a full throttle and watch the train rocket down the rails all of a sudden!

I suspect they'll corral most of the major bugs at some point.  However, my concern is when they lose interest in the app like they did with the LCS app and the Lionchief app.  As new phone releases come out, suddenly things stop working.  That happened with the Lionchief app, I had an older Android that I was keeping around for folks to use when they came to visit, but the Lionchief app wouldn't run on it!  The Lionchief app runs on my newer phones, but for how long?

I would be willing to bet that if Lionel came out with a handheld remote, compatible with the base 3 that they would not be able to keep either device on the shelf.  From reading most of the comments, a lot of people prefer to not   use  a phone to control their  trains.

Marty

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

However, my concern is when they lose interest in the app like they did with the LCS app and the Lionchief app.  As new phone releases come out, suddenly things stop working.  That happened with the Lionchief app, I had an older Android that I was keeping around for folks to use when they came to visit, but the Lionchief app wouldn't run on it!  The Lionchief app runs on my newer phones, but for how long?

Agreed. It is my view that Lionel's commitment to ongoing support is the single most important issue for the CAB-3 app and will determine whether it is a success. It is not without good cause that I question that commitment because CAB-3's predecessor, iCab, was not updated for almost 7 years leading up to the release of CAB-3. Moreover, some of the bugs impacting iCab carried over into the implementation of the CAB-3 app. It is disappointing that I reported many of these issues to Lionel in years past but they were never addressed.

Lionel received my forbearance with iCAB because I did not pay for that app directly (even though I did purchase LCS components including WiFi). However, I did pay handsomely for the BASE3, and Lionel did promise certain features in exchange for that purchase. Therefore, I am inclined to press harder for their attention to make the necessary corrections.

Engineering and development teams are project oriented. They make money only by moving as quickly as possible to finish up one project and move on to the next. Having a "thing" that requires constant support, development and monetary investment is foreign to that particular culture. Hopefully, Lionel can give this app the attention it deserves as an ongoing cost of doing business rather than as a single project to be abandoned in an incomplete condition.  Only time will tell.

IMO, the ongoing support is one argument for the dedicated remote.  Once you have a working code base for the product, you don't have to continue to pursue a moving target like you do with successive cell phone version releases.  If you update your base product capabilities, you know exactly what hardware you'll be running the remote software on making it a lot easier to accomplish the necessary changes.

I've seen other products (not model trains) rely on apps to work and they kinda get useless once the app isn't supported or updated any more.  Updates and bug fixes require constant attention to work right and we can't really risk engines worth a thousand or two running off the rails because of a bug in the system.

For the casual user, the Base 3 and Cab-3 App are usually fine.  Everyone else is either going to keep their tried-and-true systems or grab a compatible remote and hope it lasts.  I mean, my TMCC CAB-1 Remote was 30+ years old and it's holding up just fine.  The number 5 button is a little finnicky sometimes but otherwise it works.  I'm confident my CAB-1L (pretty much the same thing) will be just as resilient, so even if they don't release a new remote I'm kinda good with what I have.

This discussion has really been fascinating though.  Seeing all the ways you guys operate, the issues you've run into, the insight from operators who have been doing this MUCH longer than I have, this is the kind of stuff I was hoping to see.  Anyone who claims to know everything usually doesn't, so getting input from a wider range of opinions is good... even if the App is bad

If you want a remote, Lionel does have two that work with all recently made locos.  The Universal Remote is $55 MSRP and the cab-1L is $170 if I recall correctly. The Universal Remote does not require a command base, but the cab-1L will require the Base 3 (or a Legacy Base or a 1L Base; neither of these is currently available, except as used or new, old stock). Not sexy or fancy, but they work, and they are the only remotes being made by anyone in three rail O gauge (well, Menards has remotes too, very similar to the Universal Remote, except specific to the loco, as in LionChief).

I have been using my Base 3 with both my Cab 2 and the app.

I did stop using the app after I could not stop my beautiful PRR CC2 from running into the rear of a parked train and knocking 6 cars off the table to the wooden floor, damaging all of them. I was too far away from the transformer, so I lifted the CC2 off the track as it was grinding its way through the rest of the parked train.

The app needs a lot of work. (plus, I can't do wheel slip with the app for my Triplex)

@Jeff2035 posted:

I have been using my Base 3 with both my Cab 2 and the app.

I did stop using the app after I could not stop my beautiful PRR CC2 from running into the rear of a parked train and knocking 6 cars off the table to the wooden floor, damaging all of them. I was too far away from the transformer, so I lifted the CC2 off the track as it was grinding its way through the rest of the parked train.

The app needs a lot of work. (plus, I can't do wheel slip with the app for my Triplex)

Jeff, sorry to hear about your mishap. With the possibility of something like this happening, I have my main power supply plugged into a remote control receptacle plug. The remote is with me at all times. I had to use it just the other day, although it was my error.

Gene