Lionel Brass Hybrid Santa Fe

The first question you need to ask yourself is: "Do I want a model of a Santa Fe 2-8-2 or do I simply want any brass or brass/hybrid steam locomotive?"

Sunset 3rd Rail currently has no Santa Fe steam available, save for the Pennsy L1 lettered for Santa Fe (of which the Santa Fe had three that saw little service.)

The Lionel model is pretty accurate, save for some running gear details because they're using a pre-existing drive from a model 2-8-2 they've already produced.  And of course, you get the Lionel Legacy bells and whistles.

A 3rd Rail model will be accurate over-all.  The model comes with TMCC/ERR Cruise control/Railsounds package.

Bear in mind that both the Lionel Hybrid and 3rd Rail models are produced in quantities based on pre-orders.

Rusty

I was at York, visiting the Lionel booth during the Introduction of this Really Nice Steal Locomotive. I am not a player for the Brass look, however, I did order the #3222 Black Sante Fe Mikado.  I was amazed at the Detail of this offering. I love the Legacy System, coupled with Blue Tooth Technology, I think it's going to be a Fun to Run Steamer...

Thanks for the input of the Lionel Brass hybrid. I still at odds with my decision. Hopefully they may be a collectors item. The Brass Hybrid does look better than the nano coated Berkshire IMO.

I ordered the brass 2-8-2. I can't wait to get it.

The Nano plated Berkshire is also a unique item. I have that also and wouldn't trade it for anything.

I'm not sure one can "look better than the other". It's apples vs. oranges. I eat both!

I see there's not a lot of opinions here, so, for what it's worth, after reviewing the latest Lionel 2017 Signature catalog second edition, my opinion is it's the best offering in the book. I am glad I ordered it at York, in April.  I enjoyed running this engine at York with my iPhone, very much....I really like Lionel's Legacy system, so, with the brass detailing, blue tooth technology, Legacy Control, I am anxious to put this Locomotive to work....I did order the #3222....How about you?

I think you made a wise choice. I'm not much on collecting but I think this engine will be highly sought after in the future making it highly collective.

Rod Miller

leapinlarry posted:

I see there's not a lot of opinions here, so, for what it's worth, after reviewing the latest Lionel 2017 Signature catalog second edition, my opinion is it's the best offering in the book. I am glad I ordered it at York, in April.  I enjoyed running this engine at York with my iPhone, very much....I really like Lionel's Legacy system, so, with the brass detailing, blue tooth technology, Legacy Control, I am anxious to put this Locomotive to work....I did order the #3222....How about you?

Larry

Nice engine indeed.  Lately we've had a lot of folks here telling us how to spend our money.  I'm excited to see the new Bluetooth technology added to Legacy engines.  While I didn't order the Brass Hybrid out of the new catalog I did order the Polar Express Scale Berk and cars which are one the last "must haves" on my list.

This brass locomotive is Lionel's opportunity to create an entirely new line of very specially detailed items. I ordered one and it is my hope that the locomotives I love best, scale Hudson, Y6b, Niagaras will follow. This locomotive has a very good chance to be a true collector piece. I don't buy items any longer in anticipation of collectibility, but this brass hybrid could be an icon for the future. 

Scrapiron Scher

I would love to get the black letter version but it is out of my budget.

John Graser, that's not a bad thing. I would love one also but other things around the house are needed right now. Not being able to buy everything we want makes the hobby more enjoyable. Just like the old days, it's fun having a wish list. 

Rod Miller

Rod,

Just getting to get back into O Gauge (since last year) so currently only have two engines.

John

OGR Members:  2 Questions, Is this the 2nd Brass Hybrid Lionel has put out so far, and can these be ordered at the LHS.  I saw in the 2017 catalog that it was a Lionel direct order but was wondering if the Brass train could be ordered elsewhere due to the fact that it's a BTO

marshelangelo posted:

OGR Members:  2 Questions, Is this the 2nd Brass Hybrid Lionel has put out so far,

Don't think so. I'm pretty sure that this is the first attempt at such a SCALE model.

and can these be ordered at the LHS. 

I don't think so, from what has been posted previously. However, you might want to actually ask your local hobby shop, to be sure.

I saw in the 2017 catalog that it was a Lionel direct order but was wondering if the Brass train could be ordered elsewhere due to the fact that it's a BTO

The hybrid is a stunning model.  Here it is being demonstrated at the 2017 NMRA National Train Show in Orlando.  I am sure that everyone who buys this model will be very pleased.

NH Joe

marshelangelo posted:

OGR Members:  2 Questions, Is this the 2nd Brass Hybrid Lionel has put out so far, and can these be ordered at the LHS.  I saw in the 2017 catalog that it was a Lionel direct order but was wondering if the Brass train could be ordered elsewhere due to the fact that it's a BTO

Don't think there is anything stopping a local hobby shop from ordering them, though guessing they will mark up the price since they won't receive a discount. On the web site the unfinished and undecorated are both sold out already.

Thanks for this thread. Its been so long I forgot I ordered one in May.

I ordered the Santa Fe version at York, April.  Nothing like Legacy and nothing like this brass hybrid.  

I'm looking forward to having it run on the new layout.

rthomps posted:

I ordered the Santa Fe version at York, April.  Nothing like Legacy and nothing like this brass hybrid.  

I'm looking forward to having it run on the new layout.

Agreed, the possibility with this new concept are endless.  Engines never done before in die cast can be done now without the expense of new tooling.  

So I do realize brass is soft...and tooling is less costly...but how does one tool for brass?  Lost wax?  Rubber tools?  

Mike W. posted:

So I do realize brass is soft...and tooling is less costly...but how does one tool for brass? 

If you mean the boiler/firebox/cab components, those are all formed out of sheets of brass, i.e. rolled into the shapes one desires.

Lost wax? 

The "lost wax", or investment castings, would be the process for making all the small add-on details, such as pumps, injectors, valves, etc., etc., etc..

Rubber tools?  

Nope. No "rubber tools" involved, except maybe the mat the models that are being made/assembled on. Brass models of scale trains are all HAND MADE.

Strafe posted:

 pre-ordered the undecorated version and wondering if I should of pre-ordered a Sunset 3rd Rail model steam locomotive. Please leave an objective opinion. 

I have three Sunset/3rd Rail brass steam engines and one from MTH.  The Sunset engines are loaded with prototypically correct details.  This makes them somewhat more delicate to handle than the MTH engine.  Some of the details that look terrific are capable of causing problems.  An example is the sand pipe tips on my Sunset 4-8-4, which must be precisely adjusted to contact neither the wheels nor any part of the track when negotiating a turnout. The Sunset engines have a cable and a plug between the engine and the tender, and it is very difficult to disconnect, once it has been connected.  The MTH engine looks good, even though its drivers are slightly smaller than the real Santa Fe prototype, and it has a stack extension which can be raised or lowered.  Really, when moving, the difference between the detail level on the MTH engine and the Sunset engines is not too noticeable.  The MTH engine runs easily and flawlessly everywhere on my layout.  I expect that the Lionel 2-8-2 on order will do the same.

So . . . are you willing to do the necessary tweaking and leave your Sunset engines on the layout?  They can be transported to meets, but only very carefully, and surprises can occur if some small detail gets bent.  The Lionel 2-8-2 will fit where a Sunset 4-8-4 will not.  So, it's a choice of being willing to tinker occasionally with a beautiful brass model or desiring to run a very good brass model often and without needing to give much attention to adjustments.

I am wondering what a Lionel VisionLine NYC Hudson 5344 in Brass with the super details would look like. I would be a player....Not sure I could afford it, but, I bet it would sell....

Hot Water posted:

Mike W. posted:

So I do realize brass is soft...and tooling is less costly...but how does one tool for brass? 

If you mean the boiler/firebox/cab components, those are all formed out of sheets of brass, i.e. rolled into the shapes one desires.

Lost wax? 

The "lost wax", or investment castings, would be the process for making all the small add-on details, such as pumps, injectors, valves, etc., etc., etc..

Rubber tools?  

Nope. No "rubber tools" involved, except maybe the mat the models that are being made/assembled on. Brass models of scale trains are all HAND MADE.

 

It's a bit of a fallacy that tooling is not involved in brass locomotive production. It's true that things like die-casting and injection molds aren't used (and these typically take up the largest chunk of an item's tooling cost), but other tooling examples -- holding fixtures, forms, gauges, stamping dies, shears, etc. -- are still involved in making brass pieces, many of which are unique to a particular model.

Also, rubber tooling (like polyurethane or something very similar) is often used in lost wax manufacturing. Typically, rubber molds are made of a brass master part. upon which wax is then injected to make a copy of the part for use later in the process.

TRW

Rubber molds are also used to cast pewter...vulcanized rubber that is.  These locos are sold out it seems btw.

I'm a little confused about availability. Why put in volume 2 if no longer accepting preorders. I checked Lionel store and it looks like the black Santa Fe can still be ordered.

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:

I'm a little confused about availability. Why put in volume 2 if no longer accepting preorders. I checked Lionel store and it looks like the black Santa Fe can still be ordered.

Rod Miller

That's what I saw as well Ron. Looks like a great engine.

romiller49 posted:

I'm a little confused about availability. Why put in volume 2 if no longer accepting preorders. I checked Lionel store and it looks like the black Santa Fe can still be ordered.

Rod Miller

Ryan Kunkle @Conrail6358 said on the Notch 6 podcast that there was still a limited supply.  That was about a month ago now when they did the catalog preview show.  I suspect between then and now they must have sold out.

leapinlarry posted:

I am wondering what a Lionel VisionLine NYC Hudson 5344 in Brass with the super details would look like. I would be a player....Not sure I could afford it, but, I bet it would sell....

If it was a J1 it would look like this 3rd Rail Brass engine. Just add Legacy.

If it was a J3 then it might look like this.

Or this.

There are many Brass NYC Hudsons out there. Unless Lionel does one with brass frames as well as superstructure it won't look as good as these.

Pete

Its probably the most exciting announcement in Lionel's new product line up since Vision Line locomotives were introduced.

Finally, a well detailed scale hybrid locomotive with a new prototype targeted possibly every year!

I ordered one immediately on- line after Ryan and Dave announced its release at the TCA museum.

It’s a very nice Model. Lionel what about 2 Rail? Seriously why not? 

My current Mike’s in ATSF one is a 1990’s Sofue the other a Max Gray both extensively rebuilt by a master builder from California with ball bearing custom drive and Faulhaber motors.  Soon ESU Loksound and Tang Band dual speakers each. 

I agree with Erik. "Lionel what about 2 Rail? Seriously why not?"

Why does Lionel ignore the 2 rail market?

David Eisinger posted:

I agree with Erik. "Lionel what about 2 Rail? Seriously why not?"

Why does Lionel ignore the 2 rail market?

Its a question that needs to be asked, however, remember the drive train is the hybrid part that Lionel would not have to re-tool to enter the 2 rail market. Financially that may not make sense at this time.

Right now I will settle for 3rail scale...

2 rail, yes!

Sunset Q´ Hudson

J Daddy posted:

David Eisinger posted:

I agree with Erik. "Lionel what about 2 Rail? Seriously why not?"

Why does Lionel ignore the 2 rail market?

Its a question that needs to be asked, however, remember the drive train is the hybrid part that Lionel would not have to re-tool to enter the 2 rail market. Financially that may not make sense at this time.

Right now I will settle for 3rail scale...

After MTH got into 2 rail I always wondered why Lionel didn’t follow?   I more than likely would of done 2 rail if I had entered the hobby today?  The amount of product is vastly greater than it was twenty years ago

May be, but there was a lot of 2-rail available 20 years ago.  Maybe Lionel, then and now, figured the 2-rail market was adequately covered?

As near as I can figure, with the exception of the giraffe box car, if I see something Lionel that I like, I can buy the same thing in brass 2-rail now for about the same bucks.

Erik, thank you for the beautiful pictures of real and Model trains. The 2nd picture looks like a nice 2 rail pike.  It's really beautiful. Post more pictures of two rail scenes as they are fantastic. Wiring 2 rail would in itself would be a challenge however if there are new enthusiast with $$$$ it would be worth taking some votes...Me, I am to old to start over, I am so happy with the three rail scale. I would never ever try to hold back progress, 2 Rail is realistic. Thank You for your creative ideas...Happy Railroading...

leapinlarry posted:

Erik, thank you for the beautiful pictures of real and Model trains. The 2nd picture looks like a nice 2 rail pike.  It's really beautiful. Post more pictures of two rail scenes as they are fantastic. Wiring 2 rail would in itself would be a challenge however if there are new enthusiast with $$$$ it would be worth taking some votes...Me, I am to old to start over, I am so happy with the three rail scale. I would never ever try to hold back progress, 2 Rail is realistic. Thank You for your creative ideas...Happy Railroading...

Larry they are all my 1/48 models not “real trains”.. well they are real to me in 1/48. 

Thank you Larry sincerely; I’m flattered the quality of my models convince you with some added smoke and photographic skill they are “real trains”.

I think he meant really realistic. And I can see how that can get mixed up.  Cheers.

William 1 posted:

I think he meant really realistic.

Indeed William, he may very well have.