lionel CW 80 watt transformer

Dave Olson posted:

The new federal regulations are requiring us to redesign the circuitry of the CW-80. It's the same thing that happened with the PH-180/GW-180. Now that we have that one redesigned and shipping, the CW-80 is being worked on.

The new CW-80 will have a new sku number. Aside from the changes being made to meet the new regulations, we're also improving upon the design. The efficiency will be improved and render the cooling fan obsolete. Also, it will get the bi-color LED like the GW-180 - green normally and red when there's a fault.

I'm excited for the new design. We're hoping to get the first shipment out by the end of the year. It'll show its face in the C2 catalog.

The few of us that have bought into the DC operation of LC, LC+, and LC+2.0, are really looking forward to a bigger DC power source!  I currently run 2 72 watt power supplies on my 17x11 around the room layout with no problem. But others tell me they are having problems when they run too many lit cars (probably not LED).  I really thought we would see one in the new catalog, but no luck.   Did notice the adjustable voltage P.E. trolley set up though.   Is it just an adjustable 72 watt unit?    

Jim  

Edit:   I also own two CW80s that have worked wonderfully!   Running worn out post war locos to new ones.   

carsntrains posted:

The few of us that have bought into the DC operation of LC, LC+, and LC+2.0, are really looking forward to a bigger DC power source!

The last thing we need for newcomers is added power source confusion... There is no need to upset generations upon generations of the 3 rail standard of AC on the rails. This doesn't prevent any perceived benefits of DC being utilized post rectification. It is also my understanding that TMCC & Legacy use the zero cross of the AC cycles on the track power for data synchronization. Therefore, DC is not compatible with TMCC and Legacy signals.

I had a department store display using 3 CW-80's that were ON for four years.  Not in use for 4 years, but ON. The display had push buttons for the public to run them, but they were on 24 hours a day. The only time they were off was when some helpful member of the public touched the trains and popped the breaker.  

Had one or two DOA out of the box, and one or two with the posts reversed, but all of those were replaced by Lionel.

I've been considering picking up a CW-80 for accessories on my layout - should I look elsewhere? I'm currently using a postwar Type 1053 which doesn't have a circuit breaker built-in. I like the idea of using a small transformer with a voltage controller so I can step down the voltage from the fixed 18V the Z-1000 or a PowerHouse brick puts out - thoughts?

mattrain posted:

I've been considering picking up a CW-80 for accessories on my layout - should I look elsewhere? I'm currently using a postwar Type 1053 which doesn't have a circuit breaker built-in. I like the idea of using a small transformer with a voltage controller so I can step down the voltage from the fixed 18V the Z-1000 or a PowerHouse brick puts out - thoughts?

You can find smaller Marx & Lionel  transformers for almost nothing at shows. External breakers and TVS diodes are not that expensive and gives you variable pure sine wave AC for your accessories. You can chain a number of them up with common ground wiring and power many accessories dialed right in.

You can also go big with large transformers like the classic ZW or the modern Z4000 that have multiple voltage taps, but they can be pricier.

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

The few of us that have bought into the DC operation of LC, LC+, and LC+2.0, are really looking forward to a bigger DC power source!

The last thing we need for newcomers is added power source confusion... There is no need to upset generations upon generations of the 3 rail standard of AC on the rails. This doesn't prevent any perceived benefits of DC being utilized post rectification. It is also my understanding that TMCC & Legacy use the zero cross of the AC cycles on the track power for data synchronization. Therefore, DC is not compatible with TMCC and Legacy signals.

Well I guess they are already confused because they offer both AC and DC power sources now.   The future is in DC.   I think its a joke to take wall power, convert it to 18V AC, apply that to the track, then have the engine convert the 18V AC to 18V DC to run the DC motors in LC, LC+, and LC+2.0.   And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source.   

I think the diesel/electric upset generations of steam folks.  Who upset generations of horse folks.  I really cant think of many things other than appliances that run on AC anymore.  Most things turn the wall power to DC BEFORE it gets to what it powers. : )   

Jim

carsntrains posted:

And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source. 

It only takes one example to disprove your assertion of "ALL" - a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book Has many examples:

• DC operation excludes command operation and therefore features are given up and inaccessible. This is big and it is a shame Lionel doesn't make this very clear.
• pg 48 - Motorized units - They operate in Conventional or Command mode. Since TMCC/Legacy don't work with DC, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 126 - Lionel FA Set, as with this is conventional only, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there again is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 157 hand car - same story
• pg 186, the rotary beacon is specifically AC only
• pg 201, 203 - the command and LCS components operate exclusively on AC power

Now, admittedly in certain cases I am being extremely pedantic, and there is a possibility that the trolley controller on pg 158 will become available as a separate sale item and that will allow for conventional DC control, but that remains to be seen.

Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog (BTO exclusion or not) is DC compatible or is fully functional on DC.

bmoran4

Agree not good to  confuse newcomers but as newcomer  to the hobby do not understand "pedantic"? And I do not want to upset generations of 3rd rail prospective?

RickM46 posted:

I remember buying mine mostly from HobbySpeed going for around 120 from their site on Ebay; Ro has them for 115; plenty of used ones on the bay.

True enough, but I consider that far too high a price for them.  The old adage about $1/watt is pushing well past the limit of reason for a CW-80. 

I would love to get a CW 80 if they can get the bugs out but for now the LW TW and ZW are running great

palallin posted:

RickM46 posted:

I remember buying mine mostly from HobbySpeed going for around 120 from their site on Ebay; Ro has them for 115; plenty of used ones on the bay.

True enough, but I consider that far too high a price for them.  The old adage about $1/watt is pushing well past the limit of reason for a CW-80. 

$1 per watt? It has been a long time since that mark was standard. 

An MTH Z-1000 lists for $130. A Z-4000 lists for $500. Even with discounts, the price is more than $1 per watt. 

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source. 

It only takes one example to disprove your assertion of "ALL" - a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book Has many examples:

• DC operation excludes command operation and therefore features are given up and inaccessible. This is big and it is a shame Lionel doesn't make this very clear.
• pg 48 - Motorized units - They operate in Conventional or Command mode. Since TMCC/Legacy don't work with DC, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 126 - Lionel FA Set, as with this is conventional only, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there again is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 157 hand car - same story
• pg 186, the rotary beacon is specifically AC only
• pg 201, 203 - the command and LCS components operate exclusively on AC power

 

Now, admittedly in certain cases I am being extremely pedantic, and there is a possibility that the trolley controller on pg 158 will become available as a separate sale item and that will allow for conventional DC control, but that remains to be seen.

Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog (BTO exclusion or not) is DC compatible or is fully functional on DC.

TRAINS!   Not hand cars or speeders.  Ryan said himself the only reason they do not have LC type control is the boards won't fit in them! : )     

And not accessories lol   WOW that is really reaching.   So Lionel sells their train sets with DC power packs and sell a 72 watt for expansion but they don't support running trains on DC?     WOW is all I can say.    Amazing.   One special set is a maybe.........

Jim

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source. 

It only takes one example to disprove your assertion of "ALL" - a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book Has many examples:

• DC operation excludes command operation and therefore features are given up and inaccessible. This is big and it is a shame Lionel doesn't make this very clear.
• pg 48 - Motorized units - They operate in Conventional or Command mode. Since TMCC/Legacy don't work with DC, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 126 - Lionel FA Set, as with this is conventional only, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there again is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 157 hand car - same story
• pg 186, the rotary beacon is specifically AC only
• pg 201, 203 - the command and LCS components operate exclusively on AC power

 

Now, admittedly in certain cases I am being extremely pedantic, and there is a possibility that the trolley controller on pg 158 will become available as a separate sale item and that will allow for conventional DC control, but that remains to be seen.

Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog (BTO exclusion or not) is DC compatible or is fully functional on DC.

TRAINS!   Not hand cars or speeders.  Ryan said himself the only reason they do not have LC type control is the boards won't fit in them! : )     

And not accessories lol   WOW that is really reaching.   So Lionel sells their train sets with DC power packs and sell a 72 watt for expansion but they don't support running trains on DC?     WOW is all I can say.    Amazing.   One special set is a maybe.........

Jim

I challenge you to find something that is not FULLY functional on AC. Recall, DC is exclusive of command control where the full feature sets lie.

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source. 

It only takes one example to disprove your assertion of "ALL" - a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book Has many examples:

• DC operation excludes command operation and therefore features are given up and inaccessible. This is big and it is a shame Lionel doesn't make this very clear.
• pg 48 - Motorized units - They operate in Conventional or Command mode. Since TMCC/Legacy don't work with DC, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 126 - Lionel FA Set, as with this is conventional only, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there again is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 157 hand car - same story
• pg 186, the rotary beacon is specifically AC only
• pg 201, 203 - the command and LCS components operate exclusively on AC power

 

Now, admittedly in certain cases I am being extremely pedantic, and there is a possibility that the trolley controller on pg 158 will become available as a separate sale item and that will allow for conventional DC control, but that remains to be seen.

Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog (BTO exclusion or not) is DC compatible or is fully functional on DC.

TRAINS!   Not hand cars or speeders.  Ryan said himself the only reason they do not have LC type control is the boards won't fit in them! : )     

And not accessories lol   WOW that is really reaching.   So Lionel sells their train sets with DC power packs and sell a 72 watt for expansion but they don't support running trains on DC?     WOW is all I can say.    Amazing.   One special set is a maybe.........

Jim

I challenge you to find something that is not FULLY functional on AC. Recall, DC is exclusive of command control where the full feature sets lie.

I challenge you to find something thats LC, LC+, and or LC+2.0 that isnt fully functional on DC! And  a Legacy engine that isnt built to order!

   Real trains used to be powered by wood, coal, or oil making steam.    At one point nearly all of them did.   Model trains are making that same switch but not from coal, but to DC from antiquated AC transformers. : )   

Jim : )

Edit:  And this is all I need to remotely run my 3 LC+, and 4 LC engines.     49.99 at most hobby shops.

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source. 

It only takes one example to disprove your assertion of "ALL" - a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book Has many examples:

• DC operation excludes command operation and therefore features are given up and inaccessible. This is big and it is a shame Lionel doesn't make this very clear.
• pg 48 - Motorized units - They operate in Conventional or Command mode. Since TMCC/Legacy don't work with DC, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 126 - Lionel FA Set, as with this is conventional only, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there again is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 157 hand car - same story
• pg 186, the rotary beacon is specifically AC only
• pg 201, 203 - the command and LCS components operate exclusively on AC power

 

Now, admittedly in certain cases I am being extremely pedantic, and there is a possibility that the trolley controller on pg 158 will become available as a separate sale item and that will allow for conventional DC control, but that remains to be seen.

Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog (BTO exclusion or not) is DC compatible or is fully functional on DC.

TRAINS!   Not hand cars or speeders.  Ryan said himself the only reason they do not have LC type control is the boards won't fit in them! : )     

And not accessories lol   WOW that is really reaching.   So Lionel sells their train sets with DC power packs and sell a 72 watt for expansion but they don't support running trains on DC?     WOW is all I can say.    Amazing.   One special set is a maybe.........

Jim

I challenge you to find something that is not FULLY functional on AC. Recall, DC is exclusive of command control where the full feature sets lie.

I challenge you to find something thats LC, LC+, and or LC+2.0 that isnt fully functional on DC! And of a Legacy engine that isnt built to order!

   Real trains used to be powered by wood, coal, or oil making steam.    At one point nearly all of them did.   Model trains are making that same switch but not from coal, but to DC from antiquated AC transformers. : )   

Jim : )

1. I doubt the majority of hobbyist here are ready to give up on command control in its current forms.
2. Lionel is doing a disservice to newcomers by adding to the power supply confusion, especially ones that are not fully backwards or forwards compatible.
3. At no point did I disagree that LC, LC+ and LC+2.0 could operate FULLY on DC, but there are items that do not operate FULLY on DC including anything command control. Stating that ALL trains run on DC is missing the nuances that shouldn't and wouldn't exist when adhering to the AC standard.
4. AC vs DC battles are nothing new and is not analogous to coal/wood/oil etc... The AC/DC battle goes back to Edison & Tesla. In fact, DC systems predate AC.

Bottom line, scoped to the current catalog or over a century of 3 rail o gauge railroading, AC compatability vastly outnumbers DC compatability. Extremely narrowly scoped to LC, LC+, and LC+2.0, AC and DC compatability is equal.

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

carsntrains posted:

And please notice ALL!   And I repeat ALL of the Lionel trains that are being sold and are not "built to order" either come with a DC power source or can run on  a DC power source. 

It only takes one example to disprove your assertion of "ALL" - a quick scour over the 2019 Big Book Has many examples:

• DC operation excludes command operation and therefore features are given up and inaccessible. This is big and it is a shame Lionel doesn't make this very clear.
• pg 48 - Motorized units - They operate in Conventional or Command mode. Since TMCC/Legacy don't work with DC, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 126 - Lionel FA Set, as with this is conventional only, and Lionel only offers fixed voltage DC supplies on pg 200, there again is no Lionel supported way to operate them on DC.
• pg 157 hand car - same story
• pg 186, the rotary beacon is specifically AC only
• pg 201, 203 - the command and LCS components operate exclusively on AC power

 

Now, admittedly in certain cases I am being extremely pedantic, and there is a possibility that the trolley controller on pg 158 will become available as a separate sale item and that will allow for conventional DC control, but that remains to be seen.

Bottom line, not everything in the latest catalog (BTO exclusion or not) is DC compatible or is fully functional on DC.

TRAINS!   Not hand cars or speeders.  Ryan said himself the only reason they do not have LC type control is the boards won't fit in them! : )     

And not accessories lol   WOW that is really reaching.   So Lionel sells their train sets with DC power packs and sell a 72 watt for expansion but they don't support running trains on DC?     WOW is all I can say.    Amazing.   One special set is a maybe.........

Jim

I challenge you to find something that is not FULLY functional on AC. Recall, DC is exclusive of command control where the full feature sets lie.

I challenge you to find something thats LC, LC+, and or LC+2.0 that isnt fully functional on DC! And of a Legacy engine that isnt built to order!

   Real trains used to be powered by wood, coal, or oil making steam.    At one point nearly all of them did.   Model trains are making that same switch but not from coal, but to DC from antiquated AC transformers. : )   

Jim : )

1. I doubt the majority of hobbyist here are ready to give up on command control in its current forms.
2. Lionel is doing a disservice to newcomers by adding to the power supply confusion, especially ones that are not fully backwards or forwards compatible.
3. At no point did I disagree that LC, LC+ and LC+2.0 could operate FULLY on DC, but there are items that do not operate FULLY on DC including anything command control. Stating that ALL trains run on DC is missing the nuances that shouldn't and wouldn't exist when adhering to the AC standard.
4. AC vs DC battles are nothing new and is not analogous to coal/wood/oil etc... The AC/DC battle goes back to Edison & Tesla. In fact, DC systems predate AC.

 

Bottom line, scoped to the current catalog or over a century of 3 rail o gauge railroading, AC compatability vastly outnumbers DC compatability. Extremely narrowly scoped to LC, LC+, and LC+2.0, AC and DC compatability is equal.

Im just waiting for @Dave Olson to answer my question.  : )  Thanks for chatting with me !!!  They needed you to save the phone book when Google stole their glory! LOL

Jim

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

I challenge you to find something that is not FULLY functional on AC. Recall, DC is exclusive of command control where the full feature sets lie.

I challenge you to find something thats LC, LC+, and or LC+2.0 that isnt fully functional on DC! And  a Legacy engine that isnt built to order!

   Real trains used to be powered by wood, coal, or oil making steam.    At one point nearly all of them did.   Model trains are making that same switch but not from coal, but to DC from antiquated AC transformers. : )  

Are you sure you want to go down this road?  None of the Legacy locomotives will run on DC, at least they scream that out on the manuals, and that includes the BT equipped models.  I think it's a bit early to say if LC+ 2.0 will run on DC, but I suspect running on DC in conventional mode will be a noisy affair with LC+ 2.0 as the bell or horn will be continuously sounding!

Now let's decide if we're going to trash all our Legacy and all the older TMCC so we can convert to DC.  Wait, I've already decided, it's AC for me.

Sorry that I don't see the headlong rush to DC, and I'm still at a loss as to what makes it superior to the AC that we've been using for a hundred years.

Thomas Edison also refused to give up his DC fixation.  I'm certainly glad that Tesla won that battle, can you imagine trying to distribute DC power to all our homes from power generation hundreds of miles away?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

carsntrains posted:

bmoran4 posted:

I challenge you to find something that is not FULLY functional on AC. Recall, DC is exclusive of command control where the full feature sets lie.

I challenge you to find something thats LC, LC+, and or LC+2.0 that isnt fully functional on DC! And  a Legacy engine that isnt built to order!

   Real trains used to be powered by wood, coal, or oil making steam.    At one point nearly all of them did.   Model trains are making that same switch but not from coal, but to DC from antiquated AC transformers. : )  

Are you sure you want to go down this road?  None of the Legacy locomotives will run on DC, at least they scream that out on the manuals, and that includes the BT equipped models.  I think it's a bit early to say if LC+ 2.0 will run on DC, but I suspect running on DC in conventional mode will be a noisy affair with LC+ 2.0 as the bell or horn will be continuously sounding!

Now let's decide if we're going to trash all our Legacy and all the older TMCC so we can convert to DC.  Wait, I've already decided, it's AC for me.

Sorry that I don't see the headlong rush to DC, and I'm still at a loss as to what makes it superior to the AC that we've been using for a hundred years.

Thomas Edison also refused to give up his DC fixation.  I'm certainly glad that Tesla won that battle, can you imagine trying to distribute DC power to all our homes from power generation hundreds of miles away?

I was going to say that a few days back!! LMAOOOOO But I try and stay away from these discussions.

@carsntrains posted:

The few of us that have bought into the DC operation of LC, LC+, and LC+2.0, are really looking forward to a bigger DC power source!  I currently run 2 72 watt power supplies on my 17x11 around the room layout with no problem. But others tell me they are having problems when they run too many lit cars (probably not LED).  I really thought we would see one in the new catalog, but no luck.   Did notice the adjustable voltage P.E. trolley set up though.   Is it just an adjustable 72 watt unit?    

Jim  

Edit:   I also own two CW80s that have worked wonderfully!   Running worn out post war locos to new ones.  

Jim:

I don't know how to send you a private message (is that possible on this forum?) I was wondering how you link the two DC power supplies to your layout. I was thinking of trying this and wonder if you could help me out.

Aaron

@Aaron G., There are a few ways to accomplish this from some of these foundational bases applicable to AC or DC power sources:

• Completely isolated blocks/loops each associated with a power source
• Commons tied together and power sources divided amongs subcircuits
• Wired in parallel for greater wattage delivery

@bmoran4 posted:

@Aaron G., There are a few ways to accomplish this from some of these foundational bases applicable to AC or DC power sources:

• Completely isolated blocks/loops each associated with a power source
• Commons tied together and power sources divided amongs subcircuits
• Wired in parallel for greater wattage delivery

The first seems obvious. Just get the 1 3/8" pieces (FASTRACK 1 3/8" TRACK SECTION
SKU: 6-12073) or the 5" (FASTRACK BLOCK SECTION SKU: 6-12060). I'm not sure how you'd do #2 or #3 with DC, practically speaking. Perhaps you can illuminate how this might be done.

@Aaron G.

Yes you are correct, the 1 3/8" sections allow you to create independently powered blocks, with the jumpers removed (red connectors). Note: the Orange and Purple wires are providing power (Hot side only) to two independent power blocks.

The 5" block sections aren't necessary for this purpose because you'd want to connect all the Commons/Ground connections from each transformer to all outside rails.  One Hot/Positive connection from each transformer would connect to the center rail of each independent block.

On the other hand if you wanted to combine the power (increased wattage) from multiple DC wall warts by wiring them in parallel, then the positives would be connected together and the negatives together and attach each of these two wire bundles to the track.  Or, the same can be accomplished by connecting two or more of the 10" straight sections with barrel jacks, plug-n-play or some other type of connectors into the same loop/block of track.  Doing this, you need to make sure to match the polarities of the DC transformers, otherwise you could end up with 36Volts DC or more on the tracks.  More than 18 Volts will likely cause damage.

I highly recommend looking into a more powerful AC transformer if you need to increase the available electrical current to run more trains.

@RSJB18 posted:

Run as far from a CW-80 as possible.......

I have one- can't stand it. Going to pick up a MTH Z-1000 soon.

Mostly a love 'em or hate 'em relationship from what I've read over the years

I have 2 MTH Z-1000 Transformers and they are awesome. No issues. Use your CW-80 for Accessories and when they die, doorstops!😂🤣

@Gary P posted:

Use your CW-80 for Accessories and when they die, doorstops!😂🤣

Well, they do have very substantial 7-8 amp transformers hidden inside the case that are very useful for other purposes around the layout & shop.

Before such outdated information goes any further, it should be pointed out that an all-new CW80, with modified electronics (and a different product number), was due out this month. So any past comments about its flaws or usefulness will have to be re-examined.

Personally, I think Lionel should have labeled it as the CW80-2, or CW80 2.0, but they chose to keep the same exact name. At least they look slightly different.

@Jim R. posted:

..Lionel should have labeled it as the CW80-2, or CW80 2.0, but they chose to keep the same exact name. At least they look slightly different.

Or DW80, following the BW, then CW, & as a less powerful relative of the GW.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Or DW80, following the BW, then CW, & as a less powerful relative of the GW.

Even better.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Well, they do have very substantial 7-8 amp transformers hidden inside the case that are very useful for other purposes around the layout & shop.

When one of my CW-80's died in a cloud of smoke. I tore it apart, half of the circuit board components were melted or split open and the main transformer had burned so no saving anything inside it. I cut off the cord and use it for a doorstop in the garage. I probably should dig out the rest of them in the garage in the spring that came with Lionel starter sets and sell off the ones in boxes that have never been used. I didn't get back into the hobby until late 2008 and that CW-80 was just over a year old when it cooked itself so Lionel wouldn't replace it. I went with a MTH Z-1000 transformer to replace it on advice of my local train shop, bought another one later on and I have been very happy with those 2 MTH Z-1000 Transformers that have never had any issues. I will be running modern conventional once I finish getting all the Fastrack wired up with jumper wires soldered between track sections and feeder wires every 6 pieces of track for my 2 loops, approximately 40 feet of track on the outer loop on my new layout.