Lionel electro couplers that keeping opening spontaneously

Did you return it to Lionel service or to a Lionel service station. The reason I ask is Lionel service has been recomending for years now that a 1MFD non polorized cap be installed accross the wires going to the electro coupler. It is my understanding that some have been able to find these at Radio Shack. This should be a 50 volt non-polorized unit.

 

Al

If its a newer unit, don't add a capacitor. You could blow the coupler driver. Unplug the the coupler and run the engine, if you still have a problem then it would a mechanical issue, if not then you are looking at a electrical problem.

 

Bill

As long as the units are pre-Legacy, the 1 microfarad 50-volt non-polarized capacitor will work.  Radio Shack does indeed stock them.  Install it across the two wires going to the coupler.  It will look like you're creating a short but you're not.  Per Mike Reagan, if the problem persists you can install 2 of the caps in parallel across the coupler wires.

 

Legacy locomotives have the capacitors already installed on the circuit boards.

Lionel sent me the caps for my Legacy WP ABBA F units which I never got around to installing.  2 of those units have now developed the pop open couplers.  I also have two other legacy engines with the pop open couplers.  After destroying a $90 caboose, which was rear ended by one of the runaway engines, I am going to shim (bind) the couplers shut rather than chance any more destruction from runaways.  Not the best fix, but the safest way to fix lemons.

 

Stack 

 

 

Thanks for the input.  The unit was sent directly to Lionel in Ohio (in fact, I live close by and I dropped it off there).  All the note that came back with the engine said was that they could not reproduce the problem.  If the capacitors are the fix, you would think they would install them at the factory, though Bob above has indicated that that is the case.  BTW, this is a brand new Legacy engine from the 2012 Vol 1 catalog.  I will probably just superglue the darn thing shut as I honestly would never operate a coupler in the middle of the ABBA consist

If the engine is equiped with a R2LC or R4LC, you can add caps. This engine uses a RCMC

receiver that is why they didn't add caps.

 

Bill

Welcome to the club.  It's just not your or mine. There is a design defect in these engines.  I have the Legacy NP GP PWC, and it had/has the same problem.  I got capacitors up the yin yang and didn't help.  I finally demanded a new engine and it's ok only because I run it in reverse - long hood forward-which is the way I like it anyway.  The proper rear coupler pops open spontaneously on the new one too. They cop out with the "it's got to be your track" baloney.

Alan

This may not apply to you, but do your couplers tend to open in the vicinity of pointwork or operating tracks?

i ask this, as I encountered a problem with one of my locomotives that would sometimes uncouple when passing over an operating track. In my case it was the following truck that would open its coupler, not the locomotive.

I tracked the problem down to one of the pickup rollers being slightly mis-aligned, and would sometimes make contact with one of the operating track rails. Somehow this caused the uncoupler magnet to trigger, and the spacing was just right for the truck to uncouple.

Once I had re-aligned the pickup roller the problem went away and has never re-appeared.  

Quite some time ago I had one that was pesky like that.  I reversed the leads and it worked fine after that.    I have installed Caps. with success, but only on R2LC units.

The capacitor across the coupler is supposed to solve the problem of electrical noise triggering the couplers.

 

Of course, many of these issues are mechanical issues with the couplers, many times a weak spring.

I am not sure if this may help or not, but I had a whistling tender that kept sounding off without the whistle button being pushed when going around the layout, the solution was to clean the tracks! So sometimes dirt can be a culprit as well.

grj mentioned about electrical noise so I thought that I would throw this in.

 

Lee F.

Most cases it is a weak spring.  Remove the rivet on the knuckle. Carefully remove the knuckle making certain not to let the spring fly out.  Pull the spring out and stretch it out a little bit more.  Put the spring back in and then rivet the knuckle back in place.

 

This should remedy any mechanical problems with electro-couplers.  Age old fix with credit going to the OGR Backshop.

 

Fred

If you're going to take the coupler apart, I'd recommend a new spring, a stretched spring doesn't often stay that way for long.

Why should have to take the coupler apart in a new locomotive?  Would you think it was acceptable to re-attach a bumper on a new car.

I am not saying that "it's your track" is the official policy of Lionel, but it keeps coming back as the explanation.  The explanation is that it's a design flaw when you hear it from multiple sources.

Alan

If it's under warranty, you have the option of shipping it back to Lionel.  I didn't see where that was specified.  I was responding to Fred's post, why not take him to task for suggesting it?

I think that should be considered a moot point, no?  What is the design flaw?  Somebody makes a million tiny springs, ships them to Lionel's builder, they install a million tiny springs into a million coupler assemblies and some are a little weak and not so great.  What is the matter with fixing the coupler?  As an option you can buy a new coil coupler from Boxcar Bill for $ 8.50 and replace it if you are not comfortable removing and replacing the tiny rivets.  That's what I've done on a couple of Geeps. (out of 35 in inventory).  Easy fix.  Problem solved.  No teeth gnashed.  What's the point?

I had a similar problem with my Canadian Pacific GP30 right after I brought it home from my LHS.  Took it back, he checked it out, replaced the springs in both front and rear couplers.....problem solved.  

I'm not sure what the point is, I've replaced tons of coupler springs of all flavors, it's not a big deal.

For those who don't know among us (me if no one else), how does one go about replacing a rivet? I imagine there is a spiffy little tool that makes it easy? Sizes of rivets? Where to get them?, etc. Thanks.

The necessary parts are readly available from anybody that sells parts. There are many threads that will explain the procedure. There are many tools available. All I ever used is a block of steel to use as an anvel, a center punch, and a light hammer. A little care and your done.

 

Al

Thanks for all the responses.  I'm going to try really cleaning the center rail as my suspicion is that there is some arcing causing an abberent signal causing the coupler to fire.  The superglue option is a last resort which I have used on occasion in the past

I wasn't taking you to task, and I apologize for having it look that way.  I just lumped my reply to two issues in one response.

Alan

I get rivets and the knuckles from The Train Tender.  I also have taken to replacing the cheap plastic knuckle/spring with the diecast one with a real spring on any cars with diecast trucks.

Thanks for the info on sources for rivets.

 

I did a search for rivet, and looked through a page worth of results and I think there were more posts about rivet counters than anything else. I didn't find any topics that explained the procedure, but I read a number of posts and I think I have the general idea, as well as the various tools people use to replace rivets. Thanks for the help.

Have you run your loco on another layout?  If Lionel could not duplicate your problem I would consider giving this a try.

I'm joining the fun with a new  Legacy K-4. Pops open occasionally with passenger cars. Tugging on them while moving doesn't do anything. Seems to happen more often above 100 steps and with 6 heavyweight cars. I guess I'll try disconnecting the wires to the couplers first?

I use the Brakeman's Riveter, very handy kit.  It does a lot of jobs, I have both sizes of the tools so I can put truck rivets on as well.  It also does sliding shoe rivets, etc.  The neat thing about the kit is normally putting a rivet into a coupler turns out to be a three handed operation, this makes it easily accomplished with only two hands.   I've repaired a lot of stuff like 022 switches, trucks, etc. with this kit.

 

 

 

 

I have a Legacy UP aux tender that had the opening coupler syndrome and the Lionel service center told my repair person that I was pulling too many cars,10 Aluminum 18 inch.He replaced the coupler and problem solved. Mikey

Gunrunnerjohn, thanks for the info on the rivet tool.

Just a crazy question.  The guys who are having coupler problems.  What are you all using for power?

There seems to be a lot of coupler problems but to be honest the club I belong to runs a lot of trains with long car lengths and we have very few coupler problems. Makes me wonder if the trouble might not be more track work and track cleanliness related. We use gargraves track and Ross switches. Power is supplied by Lionel new style ZW and a Z4000. We also have some tracks powered by an old Z and a Z-1000.

 

Al

I have a few engines and have never had that happen with an electro coupler.  Thumb tacks, Yes.   I run tubular track with modern transformers.  My track is always clean.   Guys, if you do have a defective coupler, replace it.  They are very cheap. The RETAIL  cost of your coil coupler is only $10.00.   When you order a new coupler, order a few to have a spare or two on hand.  Bottom line, they are cheap to purchase if you have a bad one.

Z4000 on Atlas track. I still stand by my feelings that if it's happening to a variety of people (not everyone) there's a design defect that should be addressed.  The failure rate should be zero on such a fundamental operation.

Alan

I still stand by the fact that you can buy a new one for $ 8.50 from Boxcar Bill and be done with it.  That being said, I must confess to wondering how a weak spring causes a coupler to open.  Doesn't the spring serve to open the coupler, not keep it closed?  If the spring is bad, it makes sense to me that the coupler would not open, not the other way around.  A weak spring would keep the coupler closed, no? 

I also should say that I don't have any Legacy engines, so if it's an epidemic caused by too much technology, I may be skewed in my perspective.  All my engines are regular TMCC.

The spring holds the coupler closed by sitting on the latch.  If it's weak, the vibration of movement within the coupler can work the coupler open. 

 

Take one apart and look at how it operates, you'll see what I mean.

I'm going to do just that.  I'm upgrading 2 new Geeps to coil couplers tomorrow.  And I've got a weak one on a B&M unit that I was going to switch out, so that is the one I will tear into.  Thanks, it's one of those things that your sitting at a light and thinking, hmmm-huh-how?  If you catch my drift.

 

There are two springs in an electro-coupler, the one that every coupler has that opens the knuckle and a coil spring that holds a small piston against the back of the knuckle to keep it closed. The solenoid coil around the coupler pulls the piston back releasing the knuckle and the spring returns the piston into the knuckle when the coupler is again closed to hold it closed. If the spring is weak, not uncomon, or the piston or knuckle get worn vibration can cause the piston to slip out of the knuckle under load and cause it to open. This can happen even in new couplers due to defects in manufacture or parts out of tolerance. Repair is simple but I am not sure it is worth the cost of a replacement coupler. It may very well be a toss-up depending on your expertise.

 

Al

After reading this thread I went to the basement rolled up my sleeves and scrubbed all my tubular track with goof off. This problem had plagued me for over a year. I was amazed at how much grease came off the track that I thought was fairly clean. My uncoupling problem went away immediately after I clean the track. Thanks for all the good advice.

The problem with simply replacing couplers is that the same thing can well afflict the new ones.  If you pop out the rivet and fix the coupler, you will have a working one.