Oh, it's simple...We will be there but not be there!!
I'm guessing that's what the virtual announcement is about.
There are two big events 3 weeks apart: TCA York October 21 - 23 and Trainfest in Milwaukee November 12 - 13. Both events take up time and cost money. For a big exhibitor, showing up could easily cost over $ 10,000.00. Plus the time commitment for key people. York is a week away from the office, and Trainfest is close to a week away from the office. A leanly staffed company would find it hard to take the hit to time in the office.
Events have a personality, and personalities matter. York has a lot of Canada Geese - people who are critical of the vendors. Trainfest has a lot of pigeons - people who like the vendors. Vendor people prefer pigeons to Canada Geese.
Money could be an issue. Before committing to a show, a company compiles a budget. And the numbers may not work out. You have to have a minimum number of people manning the booth, and give people an opportunity to visit the show. That costs a good deal of money.
That said, "due to the increased complexity tied to working with the TCA Eastern Division" is, at best, snarky. Problems with groups are resolved by talking to everyone involved. And the resolution is "give them what they want, but their big boss owes us a round" or "don't let the door slam when they leave".
No Lionel, no MTH, no Charles Ro, no Nicholas Smith, some of my favorite attendees and dealers 
However, I'll still go and enjoy all that is there and the great people, York is just too good not to be there.
I'm going to York in October primarily for the people, much less so for the trains. Arnold
@cbq9911a posted:Events have a personality, and personalities matter. York has a lot of Canada Geese - people who are critical of the vendors. Trainfest has a lot of pigeons - people who like the vendors. Vendor people prefer pigeons to Canada Geese.
Poppycock! I venture to say that the attitudes of people at York and Trainfest are pretty much the same.
Besides, Canadian Geese just poop on the lawn, pigeons poop on your head! 
I go to York to buy trains, set-ups by Lionel or MTH were never of any interest to me, you can see their latest on their websites.
I’m still going and I’ll hang out with whoever’s there!
I think once my latest preorders are delivered I’m done buying from Lionel
@rplst8 posted:I’m still going and I’ll hang out with whoever’s there!
I think once my latest preorders are delivered I’m done buying from Lionel
I could give a rat’s behind about what you do and don’t buy, but out of curiosity, are you planning on stopping purchases from Lionel just because they ain’t coming to this particular fall York?………what’s the big deal about them not being at York??….ain’t like they sell a whole lot of stuff there anyways……or is it the free bag & pen?….🤣🤣🤣
Pat
@rplst8 posted:Oh do tell.
Knowing information and holding it over peoples heads is just childish.
Childish? I didn’t say I knew the story but there are always 2 sides. Few poster were putting Lionel at fault without knowing what is all going down.
@harmonyards posted:I could give a rat’s behind about what you do and don’t buy, but out of curiosity, are you planning on stopping purchases from Lionel just because they ain’t coming to this particular fall York?………what’s the big deal about them not being at York??….ain’t like they sell a whole lot of stuff there anyways……or is it the free bag & pen?….🤣🤣🤣
Pat
It’s more about them throwing the Eastern Division TCA under the bus like that.
If the details aren’t worth publishing, just say “We can’t make it, maybe next time.”
@MartyE posted:Childish? I didn’t say I knew the story but there are always 2 sides. Few poster were putting Lionel at fault without knowing what is all going down.
It seemed to be going both ways toward the start of the thread and you’ve hinted at inside information on many other topics.
Since Lionel didn’t see fit to reveal the details, I doubt we’ll get them ‘cept for “people in the know.”
We were at April York and I spoke to some of the dealers. The general sense I got from them was that it hurts their business at the show when the major manufacturers don’t attend the show, and that business during the April meet was slow. Particularly for the October show, heading into the peak holiday season for trains, I think this will hurt the show and the willingness of the major vendors to attend.
I don’t have any facts as to the current situation, but if it is me and I am running that show, I make sure that I don’t give Lionel a reason not to attend. I know folks here, myself included, have brand loyalties outside of Lionel, but the simple reality is that Lionel is the biggest name in O gauge, and perhaps the train hobby in general, and so if it is a train show heading into the holiday season, you want them there. Sure big L looks a little childish with the original post (put aside the lack of proof reading, which gives a hurried sense to the whole thing) but at the same time they probably figure they don’t want to get blamed for not attending.
I agree with Ray above and although I like Lionel I am not a huge Lionel fan. I think the ED should have rolled out the red carpet for Lionel. They are of course the biggest name in O. Anyone running a train show or meet worth their salt would want them there. Rich was right the ED shot themselves in the foot. If the problem is Lionel can’t get their old space in the Orange hall how will they ever get it back? I think this is not good for the other vendors, the attendees or the ED. Just my opinion.
Alot of interesting ideas on why Lionel will not attend. Simply put, I would prefer they did attend, anything that can help a train event is always a good thing. I am disappointed they will not be there, but I will, and I look forward to the hunting for trains and running into people in the halls, at the restaurants etc.
@J 611 posted:
Wow. Sounds like a cheap shot at the Eastern Division. As we all know though, there are always two sides to every story.
Pat
@Rich Melvin posted:The EDTCA continues to shoot itself in the foot.
Rich:
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
Pat
@ericstrains.com posted:Jeez, people sure like to jump to conclusions and judge without knowing the entire story.
Agreed!
No matter how much you flatten a pancake there are always two sides!!
@JBuettner posted:... 99% of the reason I go is for the members' tables. Since I won't be buying any new items manufactured by Lionel, I don't need 'em...
I also go mostly for the member tables and somewhat to buy in person from some of the larger vendors, and I spend very little time at Lionel's booth, so it's not a big loss for me.
However, York is about more than just ME, and I still think it's insulting to the train community that they're not attending. It's nice to see upcoming products, but more importantly, Lionel should maintain a presence with the people who buy their big-dollar items. I'll bet that a large percentage of the folks who buy $1200-2000+ engines go to York; if I was one of them, I would expect to be able to meet the Lionel folks once or twice a year.
@irish rifle posted:Rich:
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
Pat
I’m not “judging” anyone or anything. Just stating well-known facts within the industry.
IMO it could be a number of different reasons. It might be ED related or financial issues. I know for a fact that the cost of everyday living has gone through the roof and that has caused members to back away from York. Those of us that have to travel long distances and stay in hotels have scaled back on attending these types of events. With everything that is going on in the US today this could very well be the scaling down of the York show. It has changed a lot over the years so lets just wait and see.
Well, I'm still planning to attend, but I am scaling-back my previous plans. Instead of attending Wednesday through Saturday, I will once again be going to the event with three of my train buddies from the Mercer/Greenville, PA, area. Traveling to York with them early Thursday morning, and returning home early Saturday morning. I had a great time being with those guys in April, and am looking forward to an equally great time in October. I have a short "want to buy" list, but mostly I just want to enjoy a couple of relaxing days away from the normal routine. One thing I will miss is the opportunity to attend the Thursday morning breakfast at the Round-the-Clock Diner that is something of a York Tradition (orchestrated by Peter Condro). Disappointed, of course, that Lionel will not be there, but nothing much surprises me these days.
@Greg Houser posted:I know, everything is clear with what dealers have to do to register. My guess is the "increased complexity" is due to them not attending the past meet and has to do with one of more of:
- wanting early registration price after 8/1
- needing all folks manning the booth to be TCA members
- not happy with booth location due to not attending prior meet
Either way, it's poor form to publicly put out that statement worded in that way.
-Greg
Hmm, thats what I have to endure to get a table at the Allentown shows sans the TCA membership reqirement for the Allentown show.
@cbq9911a posted:There are two big events 3 weeks apart: TCA York October 21 - 23 and Trainfest in Milwaukee November 12 - 13. Both events take up time and cost money. For a big exhibitor, showing up could easily cost over $ 10,000.00. Plus the time commitment for key people. York is a week away from the office, and Trainfest is close to a week away from the office. A leanly staffed company would find it hard to take the hit to time in the office.
Events have a personality, and personalities matter. York has a lot of Canada Geese - people who are critical of the vendors. Trainfest has a lot of pigeons - people who like the vendors. Vendor people prefer pigeons to Canada Geese.
Money could be an issue. Before committing to a show, a company compiles a budget. And the numbers may not work out. You have to have a minimum number of people manning the booth, and give people an opportunity to visit the show. That costs a good deal of money.
That said, "due to the increased complexity tied to working with the TCA Eastern Division" is, at best, snarky. Problems with groups are resolved by talking to everyone involved. And the resolution is "give them what they want, but their big boss owes us a round" or "don't let the door slam when they leave".
Been to both York and Train Fest. York is more about sales commercial and private vendors. Trainfest is more about layouts and displays with some selling.
For me, since I am a regular at York, seeing the manufacturers there give me a sense that I am appreciated as a customer. Without York, I can't think of any other mid-atlantic show that Lionel attends. The net result is that I am closed out unless I travel halfway across the country.
Maybe they should consider supporting some of the other events like the ATMA Allentown Shows or even the Greenberg's events.
LIONEL ... share the love!
"due to the increased complexity"
Sounds a bit like the new fantasy HBO series "House of the Dragon," family members (Lionel, EDTCA) riding dragons (toy trains) and launching fire at each other.
This will definitely reduce my time at the York show.
With Lionel attending I was planning to be in York from Monday 9:30am and leave on Saturday about 11:30am.
With no Lionel booth at the York show,, I won't arrive in York until Monday 9:30am and will now leave about 11:20am on Saturday.
The Lionel jab at EDTCA had no class, but it matches their world class commitment to product quality.
The only issue for me with Lionel not attending is seeing my friends from Lionel and the Legacy meeting. While Lionel being there is always a plus as it is with other vendors, it doesn't define the meet. It won't affect my pre-orders, and I won't get my shorts in a wad. I feel Lionel has their reasons for not going. Whether you take their message as dig to the EDTCA or not is strictly on you. One only has to look at the amount of vendors and other manufacturers that have stopped attending to realize that maybe it's not just Lionel. The industry is changing.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The bottom line is probably that Lionel no longer feels it necessary to spend the money to come to the show, they have little competition right now. They're just going to pocket all that loot, the bean counters win again.
You can also look it as MTH is blowing away Lionel with new product announcements every day with lower prices. Sounds like there is competition to me.
Lionel hasn't put out any good "O" freight cars since the early X-31's and PS-1 sound boxcars. I'm not into big, long modern cars. Recent freight cars offerings in O or the lack of, have been scarce.
As for business and shows, companies today have to switch virtual to remain in the game. Able to reach millions of viewers while operating LEAN to combat high costs of everything. The way it was always done in the past is unfortunately a thing of the past. As for online shows, they can be cheezie at times switching to dancing and golf but the last one from Andy explaining business details was verry transparent! When these guys get serious, it answers many of our concerns.
I find Ryan very knowledgeable about railroad details, unfortunately Lionel has no new freight car molds to offer me as a buyer. I believe that will change to keep the small group of true O - real seeking modelers buying. Fantasy, non-scale and silliness sells big but lately it has been over abundant by all suppliers. 
"You can also look it as MTH is blowing away Lionel with new product announcements every day with lower prices. Sounds like there is competition to me."
This isn't the reality I'm living in. MTH is producing a few dozen products at a time in a run for four or five dealers and perhaps somewhat more than that for general production. They have 4 staff members give or take. Mike Wolf spends 1 hour a day on the business. They are a non-factor in the industry in terms of dollar volume in all likelihood.
Whatever is happening at Lionel and York has nothing to do with MTH is my guess. MTH has reduced advertising to near nothing in the magazines for many years now and hasn't shown up at York for some time either. They have downsized to the point of becoming a relatively minor player in the greater industry, more akin to 3rd Rail than Lionel. No train sets, no track, etc. Only relevant to those of us who already know about them and already own their products. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It works for them. But let's stay real 
.
Lionel's non-attendance at York has to do with specific aspects of Eastern Division requirements/costs about which Lionel is unhappy.
Lionel is a small loss, what really kills the show for me is when the dealers no longer attend. CharlesRo will no longer attend any show since the death of senior, the family has no interest in attending. How many other dealers no longer make the trip?
@Rich Melvin posted:I’m not “judging” anyone or anything. Just stating well-known facts within the industry.
Rich:
You have a long and well documented history of being a critic of the York Meet. That's just a fact.
Pat
@superwarp1 posted:Lionel is a small loss, what really kills the show for me is when the dealers no longer attend. CharlesRo will no longer attend any show since the death of senior, the family has no interest in attending. How many other dealers no longer make the trip?
Gary:
Agree. Sad that CharlesRo is not attending. I think they are still reeling from the loss of Charlie. Neither is Nicholas Smith. I have bought a lot of trains from both of these dealers over the years, more from Ro. I suspect that Covid, runaway inflation and the economics of attendance have also contributed to those decisions, and the owners and their staffs are not getting any younger. Stockyard Express will also not be attending, because of Clyde's recent hip replacement surgery. BTW, he's doing fine in his recovery.
Pat
You guys kill me. Lionel won’t be at the fall York meet this year. So what? The sky is not falling.
@Yellowstone Special posted:You guys kill me. Lionel won’t be at the fall York meet this year. So what? The sky is not falling.
Amen! However, I agree that Lionel management could have / should have chosen their words more carefully. All they needed to say is it was a business decision. There's no need to take a shot at the organization whose members volunteer countless hours to make sure the meet is a success.
@Gpritch posted:Been to both York and Train Fest. York is more about sales commercial and private vendors. Trainfest is more about layouts and displays with some selling.
Definitely true! If exposing folks to trains--all scales--and the potential of engaging in model railroading as a creative hobby is the goal, Trainfest is definitely an event well worth attending. I was a "regular" there a good number of years back when I worked with Kalmbach, but I assume it is still much more of a "show" than a "meet." Both events are excellent in their respective ways.
It's nice when they are there. I really like to see the production samples for models coming out. But if they aren't there it is not a big deal. I don't spend more than 5-10 minutes there. I am still SUPER excited to go in October. It is still one of the best meets and love seeing everyone!
@SIRT posted:You can also look it as MTH is blowing away Lionel with new product announcements every day with lower prices. Sounds like there is competition to me.
You are clearly living in an alternate reality than I am! 
I don't see one or two locomotives or freight with a hundred different paint jobs as "new product announcements".
@taycotrains posted:I could care less…
Are you trying to say you COULDN'T care less? 
The reality is that things like York are a business decision that is based in many different facets. I don't know why Lionel said what they did about EDTCA, I don't know if EDTCA raised the cost of going, I don't know if Lionel is using that as an excuse not to spend the money. It could be that Lionel when they analyzed the York meet figured out that they weren't getting much benefit out of it, and they used some dispute with EDTCA , real or imagined, to justify not going. Honestly if there was a dispute with EDTCA the only reason I can think of writing the statement they did was to try and push what (to me) likely was a business decision based on cost and blame EDTCA to deflect criticism from the customer base for pulling out. Otherwise they could easily have put out a statement "we are not attending York fall 2022 due to the current business climate" and be done with it. I also suspect after using this wording Lionel has no intention of coming back. It will be interesting to see if Lionel goes to other shows, like Amherst in January, that will really be telling to me.
It doesn't bother me that Lionel won't be there if for the fact I am not a prime customer for new things and prototypes but I am still sorry they won't be there. I go there because it is fun, I go there to be with fellow train people, wander around and see what people have and maybe enjoy a few things, people watch some of the more 'colorful characters" and otherwise not be doing what I otherwise would, be sitting in front of a computer all day working. I suspect dealers not going is a similar thing, right now the business climate is such that they may have good reason not to incur the costs. The other thing to consider is attendance is still not 'normal' at York (or hasn't been), and that likely plays a role.
Lionel ask for discounted rates. They claim they draw the crowd. You can't operate with vendors getting special treatment. Dave
