Lionel ignoring the mid-market for motive power?

Interesting observation on one of the auction sites.....I'm looking for a semi-scale B&O steam engine.  There's a conventional B&O 4-6-2 listed for $339.  Signal sounds, no command, no electro-coupler, etc.  Manufactured at least 10 years ago but listed as New.  There are truly new LionChief Plus versions on the same auction site and at online dealers for roughly the same price WITH sounds, electro-coupler, and command "lite" features via the simpler handheld remote.  Given this, I'd suggest Lionel is doing more for the mid-market motive power than ever before.

Agree! 100%

Then keep buying guys!  But don't call Williams prices "mid-range." It's low range: if you don't think so, ask yourself, who is priced below them?  Lionel and MTh both serve the $400-$1000 market, which is mid-range, well.  

Lee I'm going to respectfully disagree with your assessment that $1000 locos are mid range. Those of us who want mid range are looking in the $300 to $600-700 range, for $1000 I want some cars for it to pull too like an M10000 or a Hiawatha set. Even at $350 it better be something a little more substantial than that 0-4-0 shifter Lionel put out! I just can't bring myself to pay $1000 for a single item in O gauge no matter how nice or loaded it is. The most I ever paid for a single loco/car is $650 for an MTH Alleghany and I thought long and hard before I pulled the trigger on that one. I think that is what most of us wanting mid range are talking about, we feel we are being priced out by this push for big scale computers on rails, a lot of us don't have the deep pockets some out there have. I do have the secondary markets and Ebay and train shows but it is a little disappointing to pick up a new catalog and basically see nothing I really like ie. cheap or cheesy looking or can truly justify the money for except a couple freight cars or a building or two. I'm a conventional guy, I like trains I can run and fix without a degree in advanced electronics and computer science and they don't need to be detailed out the ying yang either. I work with computer operated equipment all day long and it is a PITA, I don't need that gremlin following me home.
To be fair MTH does it too, some of their offerings are nice but for what you get again I can't justify paying for something I don't want or need and will gut out any ways if I do get one. When they came out with Rail King with a simple sound board and FNR and piston driven smoke units I was thinking that this is going to be a great line for us conventional guys, but they upgraded and dropped things and now everything is no different than Lionel, I just hope Williams doesn't follow suit.

Jerry

The piece that I continue to find befuddling is not about determining the line between low or mid price--but the undeniable pricing GAP between starter sets and the next level.

Again, one can buy a $200 starter set with a steam locomotive and tender, two pieces of rolling stock, a caboose, a transformer, and an oval of track, BUT there are no stand-alone locomotives at around that same $200 price point--which frankly seems like a pretty reasonable cost for an upgrade to a slightly-better-than-starter-set locomotive.

From set breakups, here's a brand new Scout for $90 and the LionChief Scout for $119.  This seller sells tons of starter locomotives for around $100, right out of the box, and I would have to assume he's profitable.  I've bought six from him over the years.

So where are the ~$200 locomotives from Lionel?  Whether you want to buy "low end" or not, you can't deny that odd gap is there.  All I can figure is that the bean counters have deemed it better to try to force starter set buyers up to the $400-$500 range for their next locomotive purchase.

"All I can figure is that the bean counters have deemed it better to try to force starter set buyers up to the $400-$500 range for their next locomotive purchase."

The Lion Chief Plus diesels are available for as little as $230 or so and the steamers for about $320.  These are dealer pricing, discounted from MSRP.

Locos (Lion Chief) are available with remote for as little as $100.  These are starter set

type locos.  So unless you're looking for something between $100 and $200, the next level pricing is well represented.  No other manufacturer makes much in the $100-200 price range, certainly not with remote capability and sound, unless you're talking about "new old stock " Williams or used.  The reason for this is that  sound and command boards add about $75-100 to the retail price, and most people are also seeking better detail, quality and finish in separate sale locos. 

Hence, one traditional lower cost vendor than Lionel has almost nothing in the way of new locos for less than $300, because they are high end in terms of sound and electronics.  You can certainly find Williams locos at street prices between $100-200 but they are all old designs without remote or much in the way of sound.

I got the impression that the prior post's ~$200 locomotives comment was based on MSRP.

Not all hobby stores discount, just to keep in mind.

"I got the impression that the prior post's ~$200 locomotives comment was based on MSRP."

No doubt, but I was hoping to make the point that there are separate sale locos in the Thomas series, Lionel's lowest priced line, that are well under $150, even at MSRP.  Folks who are complaining aren't interested in these, apparently, but they're there. 

I think a key issue is that Lionel doesn't think there is much of a market for locos that are just a little above a starter set loco in quality and features.  MTH doesn't even bother with the market prices of $100-200 or so for locos.  Williams, the bargain basement of the price range, barely pays attention to these price points, certainly not including their newly tooled locos. 

Obviously MTH and Williams share Lionel's conviction that people do not desire the kind of locos that can be produced in this range $100-200, other than starter set type locos.

Both the Lionchief Plus GP7's and RS-3's are MSRP of $330 ($240 at CharlesRo) and steamers are MSRP $430 ($310 at CharlesRo).

They're getting closer, but the broad gap is still there. Again, why can a complete starter set MSRP at $200 ($152 at CharlesRo), but no locomotives can?

Here's a screenshot from the Lionel product finder that makes the point. I've searched on LionChief and sorted by price--it's all starter sets and then prices go UP for the cheapest stand-alone LC+ locomotives. Shouldn't they be going DOWN a bit?

For the record, I'm not complaining--it is what it is, and I actually have a LC+ steamer on order. I just can't find the logic.

I agree 100%.  One other way to look at this is to say price a conventional WBB steam engine:  $300 for a Daylight, $225 for a PW style turbine (J&R prices).  Now price a similar semi-scale / downsized LionChief steamer --$310 or so (Charlie Ro).  So for a few bucks more, you get conventional operation if you want it (these run with transformers, right?), and you have a remote for extra features.  While I understand the view of those who would have liked to have Legacy compatibility, at the same time I think those folks need to realize that these locomotives are designed, probably, to appeal to the conventional operator who probably might enjoy some extras.  So they are mid-market, but with some nice, extra features. 

I think that if the quality is right and the remotes don't turn out to be junky or problematic (my TMCC remote has been going since around '96-'97 with never a problem, knock on wood) I think these will be a very big hit for Lionel.  And I also think the point that Lionel is missing the mid-market is also a bit unfair given that these are very nice alternatives to WBB steam locomotives (whose ranks have been culled, as I am sure you have noticed) that for a few dollars more offer a lot of extra value.

As far as who is the bottom end of the market, I don't think it's WBB.  I think the only real bottom end locomotives in O gauge right now can be found in certain Lionel starter sets.  The MTH starter sets are very nice, as are the WBB sets.  And while the WBB locomotives don't have some of the features of the Lionel and MTH units, solely by virtue of their robust and obvious build quality - dual motors, heavy build, and general bullet proof nature, I don't think they can be said to be low end.  Not unless traditional top notch post-war remakes (that's essentially what Williams did for a long time, right?) are considered low end.  Not by me at least.

It's pretty obvious you just want to attack people.  Prices quoted are for new stock locomotives at reputable vendors.  Buy what you want.  Leave the rest of us alone.  And while you are at it, go outside and spend some time with other human beings to regain perspective.  Best of luck.

"So, for 380.00

The original question is about steam locos.  You will look long and hard to find a new steam loco with command (except Lion Chief Plus) from MTH, Weaver, Atlas, etc. for less than $400-500.  You can find new old stock from Lionel with Legacy, and perhaps that's why they haven't got any in this catalog.  Want to make sure the previous runs sell out before they do any more small steam with Legacy in the middle price range.  Not every catalog can provide a cornucopia of specific products .

Ok. Put me in a time machine back 50-60 years ago and I land at a lionel supplied hobby shop. And what do I discover?  Lionel has always been expensive both then and today. I just wish Lionel product were more reasonably priced..

Yes,lionel has always been expensive. But, from Lionel Corp to MPC to Kughn the engines were conventional. TMCC engines also ran conventional out of the box. So, I had my choice up and down the line using a tranformer. Lionel present, basically has 3 seperate systems. If I run conventional, unless I want to use a remote and run quasi moto mode. The starter sets are out. I can go to Lionelmaster engines that "are" a good value even for the conventional runner. But, my complaint: The top remote should run them all. It's 2014 why go backwards in design compliance.

I have a hunch Lionel might be looking at this a bit differently than you are.

Yes correct Shawn. I remember my Dad (born in the 1920's) and his Dad telling me of the huge $$ expense of Lionel trains in the 1930's. Several Weeks pay or more (depending on what you had for job/employment during the great depression or late 1930's). Many folks of that era were unemployed.  Lionel prewar was not cheap and that's being polite. Lionel has always been expensive going way back before the TMCC, Richard Kuhn or MPC etc.

DomMiel, This is an interesting Post, however, I have not seen the new Lionel Catalog, YET? However, I will soon.  (Usually early order prices are great)

If you want a great Little Atlantic 4-4-2 Legacy Locomotive for Your train room, I have just what you want, 6-11117 Like-New Legacy Steamer--$475 Delivered to Your door.  Road Name is ATSF.

Thanks for reading, and as always, Buying trains on the Secondary Market, if you deal with honest folks, are usually very affordable. Leapin Larry

This thread is absolutely fascinating!

I am this "Hybrid" class of modeler.  Conventional and TMCC with a required navigable radius of O48.  While the seasonal/Christmas and the super Scale markets may buy only what is new, the rest of us additionally peruse ebay and other resellers for existing trains.   Lionel's current catalog adds to an existing market of available products.  I could understand confusion and frustration if only items from the latest catalog were available. . .but not this silliness. 

My Christmas "surprise" last year was a 1980 Rock Island 4-4-0. 

Nathan

Fair point.  How about TrainWorld as a source?  They list the WBB O-27 Semi-Scale Hudson for $289.99 and the Lionel LionChief Plus for $324.99.  Not to demean WBB as I have 6 of their engines but, IMO, a buyer is getting a whole lot more from the LionChief Plus for the $35 difference.

Absolutely!  As I said earlier, and I'm not really demeaning them as much as pointing out they are growing non-competitive, they and not Lionel and MTH are letting down the "mid-market" in my opinion.  That $25 - $35 difference gets you a whole lot more . . . .

Wow guys, I can't believe the number of responses, this is great to see everyone weighing in.  There are some views I agree with, some I don't. 

First let me reiterate that I am a big fan of the secondary market, that's were 99% of my rolling stock came from, including all my Gargraves track and my Williams F3 AA locos.  Shucks, I keep seeing Lionel EM-1's listed on ebay for around $800, I will gladly pay that once my bank account recovers from the move and house purchase.

On the other hand, I don't understand the comments which say there is a middle market, and use examples like starter sets and Thomas engines!!  Honestly, that's grasping at straws.  A starter set is a STARTER set, with a teeny little 0-4-0, and a Thomas engine is a toy for a lil child; I'm a MAN, and this MAN wants hard core iron horse multi wheel lots-o-pushrods action!  (spoken tongue in cheek, obviously) 

Anyhow, reading all the great responses I'm beginning to realize that what I have in mind isn't really realistic, and I've seen that there are a lot of options out there, I just need to look harder! 

Thanks again everybody, I appreciate all the feed back.

High end for a diesel is about $400-$500 although the Lionel Gensets retail for $799.99 which I suppose would make that the high end.

I think anything less than $400 for a diesel is cost-friendly.

"On the other hand, I don't understand the comments which say there is a middle market, and use examples like starter sets and Thomas engines!! "

On the off chance this is in response to my comments, I was offering these as examples of low end locos less than $200, because others said there was nothing under $200.  And in Lionel's case, they come with a remote and sound, unlike previous conventional locos from Lionel, RMT, K-Line, Williams, etc. 

I think if your goal is Legacy steam locos for <$400 you'll find them only on the secondary market or blow outs of overproduced items from past years.  If your goal is Legacy steam locos for <$600 you'll see small steam locos from Lionel in future catalogs and new locos that remain at dealers from previous years.  Both of these price ranges for diesels are available at many dealers from the new catalog, and represent Lionel's mid- to high-end diesels with Legacy.  Many current production command equipped diesels are available from Lionel and MTH at <$400 or close enough so it's not a big stretch for most people willing and able to spend $400 in the first place.

I don't think I'm referring to your comments in particular, but I did seen the Thomas engines come up a few times in the posts.  Of course, the more I think of it, maybe it would be kind of fun to have a nice big layout and then a fun little Thomas engine comes rolling through.  I'll be my girls would get a kick out of it.

My biggest problem, besides sounding off on a sensitive topic without having all the facts in hand, is that I just moved to this area (WV) from Cali so I have no contacts out here and have only just begun to hunt out the local train shops, of which there are a few.  The good thing is that this topic has given me perspective on what to expect once I'm ready to begin buying.