lionel JLC GG1 sideframes zinc rot

RoyBoy posted:

Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

RoyBoy posted:

Notch 6 posted:

I've handled 15 to 20 JLC GG1's in the past five or so years. The only ones I recall seeing is the silver with the solid tuscan stripe. This has led me to believe that it was primarily that run that was affected. I'd like to hear if it was any other colors. 

Mine is green single stripe.

Lionel did two maybe three runs of the JLC GG1 over 1 to 2 years..   My Tuscan 5 stripe is from the second run, the same run as the silver GG1 I believe.  Thankfully no problems yet with mine.  But,  knowing I have no use or tolerance for high priced crap production, the GG1 like the beautiful JLC Allegheny H8 I loved but sadly sold off that did suffer extensive zinc rot will be on the sell list shortly.

I can't think of a more frustrating and depressing moment for me, probably anyone who buys these things then when one suddenly finds irreparable zinc rot on a beautiful & expensive model. 

joe

gunrunnerjohn posted:

RoyBoy posted:

Lionel Parts posted:

I have a 18372 green single stripe that the side frames crumbled completely apart . I am converting it to use Williams trucks. that way I can still use it and it will run on 042 radius track.

Where are you getting the Williams parts? They have a sale on parts right now, but it still looks like a few hundred dollars in parts. Complete Williams scale GG1's are advertised for around $400-$500 or so on eBay.

$500 is an insane price for the Williams GG1!  I bought the one I upgraded to TMCC for $120 at York a few years ago.  I can't believe they're worth four times that now!  I have a lot less than $500 total in mine, including all the upgrades.

Williams Scale GG1 TMCC Upgrade

I agree completely with that. The problem is probably that they have not made another batch of them for several years. Google shows them for $169 at Trainworld, but that appears to be an old, long out of print ad.

It looks like your GG1 upgrade was six years ago.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

Trainworld is where I got mine.  I wish I had bought a few of them now.

Some folks have cured this problem.  LA Die Casting has been making restaurant supplies out of die cast for over a half century that I know of.  Door handles on Fords are all die cast, and suffer incredible abuse.

I like good die cast trains - but now I am on the alert - how do you know the GG1 body won't blossom forth in short order?

My 700-series Lionel models are older than I am, and so far no blossoming.  Same with recent MTH.  

But your fix, unless Lionel steps up to the plate, is lost-wax brass repros.  It can be done with less than 1% shrinkage if you go to the right foundry.

I picked up a used Williams scale GG1 for $100.00 to use as a downer. I want to keep all  the sounds and features of the Lionel one so i am just using the truck assemblies. I will let you all know how it comes out when I am done.

It "may" be easier to use the chassis as well, I don't know if the Williams and Lionel truck mounts will be similar enough to use the Lionel chassis.

Unfortunately, "zinc rot" is but one hazard of offshore (especially Communist country) sourcing.  It comes as I understand it from manufacturing workers who might not even understand the effects of their sloppy work, if they care.  Probably most have never HAD a hobby, except trying to feed and support their family while avoiding their government.  

In the case of zinc rot- I understand it happens when non-specified metals get poured in as fillers in the zinc manufacturing practice.  The resulting metal alloys are more subject to deterioration.

The importers (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.) are relatively small companies.  Where GM can afford to have on-site Quality Control (QC) people stationed IN China, not so with these smaller companies.  So- they have to rely on locals to provide QC.  Maybe there are not enough QC people provided by the manufacturer?  Maybe the Chinese QC people are also not properly motivated as they might be here in the USA?

Then (again as I understand it) the Chinese government owns the controlling share of all the tools of production- including of making the parts and assembling the product.  Those tools of production are not generally ever released to be removed from China, so the importer (Lionel, MTH etc.) is a captive customer.  They may have a $200,000 piece of tooling that makes maybe $ 20,000 a year of product, that they cannot send to a more reliable manufacturer anywhere, but in China.

Even worse, (again as I understand it) the Chinese will not supply parts since they are suspicious that their customer might start assembling in the USA, and competing with them.  So- parts are scarce to FIX these issues when they occur.

When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Maybe that's why Postwar??

Just my opinion, not expert by any means.  But an experienced business mind at work.  

Mike Wyatt posted:

When a USA (or other Western) manufacturer contracts w/ companies in China, they get in bed with the Devil.  Not really the importers' fault- the root cause is OUR fault for demanding cheap goods.  

Mostly true, but there's one issue here.  Cheap goods?  I think NOT.  The stuff is expensive!

"However, bearing in mind that moisture is the activator, reducing it is going to help slow down, or even prevent the curse."

Not quite correct. Moisture is an accelerant, or a catalyst. Lack of moisture will NOT prevent the degradation from occurring, but rather just slow it down. The culprit is the impurity level in the raw alloy, specifically lead. Too much lead and the time bomb starts ticking. There is no shut off switch.

Chris

LVHR

MAYBE they are expensive.  But a locomotive selling for $30 (about average) in 1950, would be in 2019 dollars:  

$ 314.66

It's quite possible that trains could become even cheaper in the future and replacement parts could be easier to make. With the advent of 3D printing we may be past tooling that only makes one item. Items could be made on demand. The next 20 years could be very interesting in manufacturing.

But that doesn't really help anyone now.

Can someone be so kind as to post pictures of what to look for on the GG1

Just look at the side frames , If they are cracked or warped you found the problem.

The scale GG1 is back in the 2019 Bachmann catalog, for what that is worth.

Opened my Green/Solid Stripe JLC GG1 as I'm checking everything getting packed for a home move, and found zinc rot.  Frames still hold together, though are bowed outward.  The backs of the frames swelled to the point where they touch and bind.  My solution so far is to carefully dremel-sand off paint from the inside portions of each frame to reveal raw metal then cover these areas with epoxy.  Won't keep outside portions from flaking off, but may keep the frames generally intact.  

Sent an email off to Lionel; naturally have not received any response whatsoever.

Local model RR store warned me, too, to check my 21" Lionel passenger cars.  Apparently the trucks on many of these as well as the zinc rectangular piece under the cars are potentially affected.  

Robert D posted:

Opened my Green/Solid Stripe JLC GG1 as I'm checking everything getting packed for a home move, and found zinc rot.  Frames still hold together, though are bowed outward.  The backs of the frames swelled to the point where they touch and bind.  My solution so far is to carefully dremel-sand off paint from the inside portions of each frame to reveal raw metal then cover these areas with epoxy.  Won't keep outside portions from flaking off, but may keep the frames generally intact.  

Sent an email off to Lionel; naturally have not received any response whatsoever.

Local model RR store warned me, too, to check my 21" Lionel passenger cars.  Apparently the trucks on many of these as well as the zinc rectangular piece under the cars are potentially affected.  

And when you do receive a reply from Lionel, they'll tell you there are no replacement parts available.  *Ask me how I know*.   Further, by all indications, there are absolutely NO replacement power truck side frames anywhere on this planet and there are no plans to produce any in the foreseeable future.  So, if you have a GG-1 with "Zinc Pest" eating away at your "Powered Truck Side Frame with Pilot", it seems that you are just plain out of luck.   BTW, the Lionel part number is: 610-8354-035.  *I know because I have the same problem with my JLC GG-1* 

Chief Bob (Retired)

Thanks Chief Bob.  I figured it was futile to contact Lionel, but at least I know I'm not a lonely voice out in the wilderness on this one.  One would think a company that MSRP's these trains at $1000 +/- might engage in some customer service to assure we keep coming back for more product.  Given the problems I've discovered in the collection as I prepare for the move, more zinc rot in some box cars for example, I'm going to refocus on my N-scale model railroading and stop buying O-gauge.  I'll likely trade or sell more of my O-gauge to thin it out for the home move than I originally planned to.  Doing so will save space and heartache when in a couple years I open up a box to find disintegrated crumbled parts. 

That JLC GG-1 was a beauty - it was the reason I picked up the Broadway Limited cars to run behind it.  So if it ends up in the dumpster, why keep the 21" cars to go with it?  

FYI, we are in the early phases of exploring the options of casting some of these.  No word yet if it's practical, but that appears to be the only way they'll ever be available again.

To GRJ: if this becomes a reality, you can put me down for several sets as I have 3 of these GG1's. No zinc rot yet that I am aware of but would like to be prepared.

Theo posted:

To GRJ: if this becomes a reality, you can put me down for several sets as I have 3 of these GG1's. No zinc rot yet that I am aware of but would like to be prepared.

Please count me in as well. I am in the same boat (no rot - yet - on my JLC Tuscan) and would like to be on the safe side in terms of replacement parts.

Still early in the discussion stages of how it could be done at a reasonable cost.  Obviously, having standard diecast tooling made is a non-starter!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

FYI, we are in the early phases of exploring the options of casting some of these.  No word yet if it's practical, but that appears to be the only way they'll ever be available again.

John,

Your track record of producing products that are relevant to the hobby is impeccable.   That being said, please consider this an order for TWO JLC GG-1 powered truck side frames with pilot if your plans make it to fruition.   Good luck and thank you!   

 Chief Bob (Retired)

I am most likely repeating myself.

There are lots of investment casting businesses in the US.  Even your dentist does it.  Take a reasonably good set of sideframes and make a non-shrinking mold.  Then make waxes and have new sideframes in lifetime brass.

Jay C is a participant on the 2-rail side, and is an expert in this area - all you need is a complete set of relatively undamaged sideframes and some postage - and a reasonable pile of $ for the work.  Ask him nicely.

Jay helped me with the nose of my Erie-built Diesel, and it turned out beautifully.

Lionel could do this for you - for a price.  Maybe they could split the cost?

This is not rocket science - it is a technique thousands of years old.  Lionel wouldn't have to lift a finger - except for packing up a set for reproduction.

There are cheaper ways - pewter, or even plastic.  But brass is elegant, and does not have zinc pest.

By the by - I had zinc pest in some of my childhood models, stored in a box for 50 years.  They were ancient Varney HO box cars, and kind of cute.  So I took a die cast underframe, straightened it, and sent it to my friend Bob Stevenson, of Stevenson Preservation Lines.  He did just what I suggested for you - he made a mold and cast me some replacements.  

The photo below is one of the rejects - the floor is really thin, and you can see the metal did not flow.  Still, it is a thing of great beauty, replacing a twisted and crumbling die cast part.  I re-equipped half my fleet with these.  I would not hesitate to do the same with GG1 trucks, although I suspect Lionel now would be motivated to do it . . .

Short of finding or having a good piece for someone to cast a replacement replica. I have found that filling the cracks with super thin CA seems to stabilize these poor castings fairly well.  CA is hygroscopic, it seeks out and binds with water molecules this helps to shut the electrolysis down. Not a perfect solution but one for the moment.          j

There are replacements for hi fi Sansui receiver (1976) ball socket AM antenna mounts as the original ones break easily.  They are molded from plastic and of a simple design and have sold for over 15 years for $12.  Making a mold for the Lionel / Kline GG1 side frames would be much more difficult to make but is the ultimate solution that will never happen.

I have just inspected my K-line GG1 bought when first issued in 2002.  It developed a warped side frame after a few years and I was able to buy one from Lionel that fit perfectly at the time.  K-line must have copied Lionel very well.  The inspection showed two side frames straight and in good shape.  The other two side frames show some minor warping, at least 1/32 inch or maybe more.  These side frames anchor the needle bearings of the wheel axles and are critical to the operation of the lead and following trucks.

If or when my side frames warp enough or crumble and fail and none are available, I would attempt to make one or two.  I would use 3/4 or 1 inch aluminum angle and cut to replace the side frame.  An all plastic side frame probably would not be strong enough to hold the wheel bearing.   I would rig up a hole or use the bearing part of the old side frame and JB weld to hold the wheel bearings in.  Then I would find a piece of 1/8 inch plastic sheet and make a cover for the outside of the side frame.  I would then use a Dremel Moto tool and small cutting bits to attempt to carve out some plastic to look similar to the original side frame and paint it semi gloss black. 

From a small distance the new side frames will not be noticed by most especially if two new ones were on one side.  I am an operator and would accept this type of fix and know many other would not.  But at least I would be able to still run my GG1.

Charlie

I'd buy replacements if offered for the JLC GG1.  Some small bits are snapping off as I sand and prep the existing frames for epoxy application; fortunately the frame I'm currently working on is holding together, though the screw mounts were iffy.  Hopefully the second frame too will hold together, but it exhibits more severe cracking at the mount points than the first one I removed.

With all the possible issurs with zinc, why is it still being ised in 3R train products?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

With all the possible issurs with zinc, why is it still being ised in 3R train products?

Because it doesn't seem to negatively impact sales?

-Dave

I think the zinc is an impurity, not intentional.

NEVER say NEVER. There is a way.

Laser sintered metal products. 

Scan a good part into math data

Digitize it 

Laser cut metal parts are made in process that stacks powder metal and cuts it to a fraction of a millimeter for products such as knee cap replacement surgery, gears, clutches, automotive castings, brackets, etc...

Cost is coming down rapidly... 5 grand set up and about 100.00 a piece.

Key is to get all the orders you can and set up and run them...

bob2 posted:

I am most likely repeating myself.

There are lots of investment casting businesses in the US.  Even your dentist does it.  Take a reasonably good set of sideframes and make a non-shrinking mold.  Then make waxes and have new sideframes in lifetime brass.

Jay C is a participant on the 2-rail side, and is an expert in this area - all you need is a complete set of relatively undamaged sideframes and some postage - and a reasonable pile of $ for the work.  Ask him nicely.

My concern is how big a pile of money is required, and what the part cost ends up being.  If they're $200/ea, it's pointless to proceed.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

My concern is how big a pile of money is required, and what the part cost ends up being.  If they're $200/ea, it's pointless to proceed.

I recently paid $100 each for four side frames from a forum member to put on my two JLC GG1's.  It seemed to beat the alternative of being stuck with two $400 paperweights that would really only be good for the trash can otherwise.  I'd gladly pay the same for another two sets of new ones to ensure that the issue won't come back again.  I know I can't speak for everybody, but there is a certain level of supply and demand pricing with these.

I think that $100 is kind of the upper limit for these.  And you have to amortize the setup across all the units, if you make 20 of them, that would probably be substantial.

Can't understand why Lionel won't step up and make replacement truck sides available. Would be a tremendous good-faith, good-will gesture.

Hal

Why don't they cast in other materials like pewter? I see cups from years ago made of this and they don't look like what we see with this rot plague. I am surprised a hobbyist doesn't cast these parts at home or plastic. Would Lionel go after people for selling home made trucks because they wont be making a dime? 

I don’t own one of these GG1 models, but I can surely relate to the frustration. Just a suggestion, and I don’t know if this would even fly or not. Maybe try contacting North West Shortline and see if they might be interested in casting these parts. This is their field of expertise. Perhaps if the owners of these models could figure out to how to get together as a group, the project could become reality. The new owners of NWSL are super nice, and they seem very eager to get orders going in a prompt and efficient manner.....and they actually answer the phone!....might be worth a call at least....what’s the worst they can say?..no?.................Pat

Pat

I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...

Mark in Oregon

HMS2035 posted:

Can't understand why Lionel won't step up and make replacement truck sides available. Would be a tremendous good-faith, good-will gesture.

Same reason they don't follow a lot of our suggestions.