Strummer posted:Pat
I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...
Mark in Oregon
Bummer, I hears about this several months ago, sadly it seems to be true: Model Railroading > NorthWest Short Line NWSL closing
I recently paid $100 each for four side frames from a forum member to put on my two JLC GG1's. It seemed to beat the alternative of being stuck with two $400 paperweights that would really only be good for the trash can otherwise. I'd gladly pay the same for another two sets of new ones to ensure that the issue won't come back again.
I believe a brass repro sideframe would be closer to $60 in quantities of one. I may be a bit dated on price, but half the expense is making the mold. Once that is made, the castings are relatively easy.
Assuming for a minute that there are only two main sideframe variants (a right and a left) you ought to be able to get the four main castings for around $200. Less if several of you went in together.
As far as I know, the new NWSL could only do a softer plastic casting. The original NWSL had graduated to a glass-filled plastic. I would not cheapen a good model locomotive with either plastic or pewter.
Give Lionel another six months, then step up and protect your investment. Again, this is easily done in the USA. There are lots of competent foundries that do this stuff.
How about a name of a couple of these competent foundries? Since you're obviously more well versed in this topic than most of us, care to take on this project? 
FWIW, I "think" there's only one frame design, they use identical frames for front and rear.
I also have great empathy for all those who are affected, and agree with many comments on this thread.
Someday I believe 3D printing will resolve most issues like this. The sideframes are decorative and not structural, right? So they could even be made out of plastic (gasp!) If Harry Henning is making new replacement parts for standard gauge trains that are 100 years old, I'm pretty sure that someone will step up and make replacement parts for expensive trains that are 10 years old.
Sadly, the side frames are structural, they support a lot of stuff. They will have to be of something stronger and more dimensionally stable than plastic I suspect.
GRJ photo shows the truck frames in question, item #55. As he said they are identical. I changed out four of them on my green solid stripe and silver GG1. My other four JLC GG1s did not exhibit zinc rot.
Here are pictures of the truck frame that is susceptible to zinc rot. I removed other components that attach to the frame and as far as I know those components are OK all the way around.
The item in the photos, while highly detailed, would be the only thing necessary to be replaced. Notice the obvious bow in the top side, top photo.
those images capture what my GG1 side frames look like, except the outward bowing is not as pronounced
gunrunnerjohn posted:Strummer posted:Pat
I agree with everything you said about NWSL...but the owner is closing up shop, so I'd guess that's not an option at this time...
Mark in Oregon
Bummer, I hears about this several months ago, sadly it seems to be true: Model Railroading > NorthWest Short Line NWSL closing
My mistake fellas, I had a senior moment...I was thinking of Precision Scale, not NWSL.....perhaps they might can help....they’re the ones under new ownership...the new owners seem eager to help their customers........I totally made a mistake.......don’t get old....it sucks!...........Pat
How about a name of a couple of these competent foundries? Since you're obviously more well versed in this topic than most of us, care to take on this project?
Sure. Valley Brass in California, and Stevenson Preservation Models. Also probably Precision Scale and maybe Weisman, in Cynthiana.
And sure - I would take on the project. I would need a left and a right. Bowed is ok, and maybe even good, because the swelling would offset the shrink. The vulcanizing process may explode the castings, so don't expect to get them back. They would have to be in one piece, of course - not broken or falling apart.
I might need a few bucks for shipping, both to and from the foundry, and back to the owner if the price is too high. I am betting that for, say, ten sets the cost will be way, way under the $100 each you guys are paying for zamac that may or may not explode. I will not be involved in any profit-making scheme, but if any of you are entrepreneurs, seems like this is an opportunity. How many do you suppose would be needed? Do you think Lionel would be interesed in a quantity buy?
Oh, and remember, even though lost wax is quite good, a little light machining will probably be needed.
Maybe if you could cast in different types of metals such as aluminum or pewter would be so much better than what the original model was made with. I think there would be a buying of at least a hundred pairs of these frames. If people out there would see how they came I believe they would sell out quick. On OGR here you would find other models that you could reproduce a special part of. The GG1 is loved by many people and there are hundreds of these defective models out there. Some of these GG'1 may have been packed for years and people don't know until they go through there items to see. If you have this online like other vendors have you would see the items leave your hands. I have a Lionel GG1 packed and really don't want to see if I have the same problem as everyone else. I have about 15 MTH GG1's on the shelf that are good with no problems. If these were about $100 to $150 I would buy a set to put with the model just in case. I know the old Bachmann HO Metroliners had the same zink problem too. I cast a good frame with plastic and it worked great, just had to add a little extra weight.
I forwarded this thread to a friend and he is interested if the project goes through.
Nobody took me up on it. I did no further research after the thread died.
Something about ripping my perfectly good JLC GG-1 and destroy the one part that is no longer available put me off. If I had one or more with the bad sideframes, I'd probably have a different viewpoint.
I didn't ask for a good one - I asked for a swollen or bent one that was not yet fractured. Well, one of each, assuming there was a left and a right.
Bob2,
This particular part for the JLC GG-1 is unlike the "Traditional" GG-1 which, I believe, has two separate side frames which attach on either side with machine screws. The JLC GG-1 side frame is actually a 1 piece frame (as seen in the previous post) with the pilot attached. Unfortunately, the Lionel WEB site is down because of them moving, but the correct part number is: 610-8354-035 if you care to check when they are up and running again. I would be more than willing to go $100.00 each and I would be in for 2 for sure. I currently have one that I purchased form S&W Parts Supply which might be used as a pattern. Hit my email and we can discuss the possible options regarding production of new frames.
Chief Bob (Retired)
bob2 posted:I didn't ask for a good one - I asked for a swollen or bent one that was not yet fractured. Well, one of each, assuming there was a left and a right.
Correct, but all I have is one of the JLC models, and mine has good sideframes. There is only one frame, the front and back ones are identical.
That large a frame will be more than $100. Probably way more. It may be time to re-think this. House of Duddy made the Ed Alexander GG1 for years, and in its final iteration it used Bill Wolfer's excellent trucks. The patterns and molds still exist.
It is sprung, with axles supported by the journal boxes. It is possible it could be adapted to the Lionel scheme.
Best I can do is post photos of that frame and ask around. Give me a day or two. If Lionel steps up, they could conceivably go that route. Better to have LA Die Casting make a production run out of good zamac.
Way more than $100 would make this a moot point. At that price point, you might as well simply buy a different GG-1.
I'm not holding my breath for Lionel to step up, we haven't heard a peep so far. That would be the right thing to do...
Shurlock1, don’t single Lionel out, all the mfrs are guilty of relying on overseas manufacturing and also of being snake bit by the lack of quality in castings. MTH has plenty of locos affected also, I’m sure there are some parts they are not able to provide. It sucks but it is reality.
I understand. it's that we are talking about this model loco and this shouldn't happen I don't care even if some of the people say it's a toy train.
I agree but the fact of the matter is that the local manufacturer can knowingly or otherwise pass items off that will fail(zincpest) due to the nature and timeframe involved with process. I’ve seen this in all manner of products that rely on zinc alloy castings, every country and product type does not matter. It is very unfortunate. If you do some studying of old info the new jersy zinc co was instrumental in the 1930’s by being one of the companies that sheparded standards and industry specifications very much due to the failures of the other early companies in the 20’s. From that point things improved in the US. Not to say issues never occured but by then the causes were understood and better practice processes were documented and available. Other products from Marklin, Riverossi Mantua and many orhers were affected. I’ve seen this in slotcars matchbox, stereo equipment, automotive parts like mirror castings, sewing machine parts, mixer parts anything you canthink of.
Here are a couple photos of the Wolfer/duddy castings. These need slack adjusters, and have earlier Alexander lead trucks, but you get the idea. Ed Duddy had them jig-soldered.
But even if the new owner is willing to do a production run, you would be risking the same problems in the other die cast parts. Wouldn't the body be from the same metal source?
So you have my sympathy - unless Lionel steps up, you will probably be left with swollen zamac all the way around.
The solution is to capture a Sunset GG1. I can tell you they are spectacular!
And now a question: does MTH have these problems with the Milwaukee Bi-Polar? I am collecting parts for a 2-railing project, and would not be happy if I drop a couple bills on exploding side frames.
bob2 posted:But even if the new owner is willing to do a production run, you would be risking the same problems in the other die cast parts. Wouldn't the body be from the same metal source?
Bob, Lionel has made tens of thousands of locomotives before and since the JLC GG-1, and they haven't all had issues with the diecast. Both Lionel and MTH have had runs of diecast with zinc rot. While I consider that pretty inexcusable, there's really not much we can do about it. If mine were one that was affected, I'd be perfectly happy with a set of sideframes from Lionel if they were free or cheap.
I hope Lionel looks into this issue, and comes up with a solution soon. I just bought a JLC silver GG-1 single stripe online, and from the pics that the seller sent to me, one truck looks to be very straight while the other one is slightly, outwardly distorted near two of the three axles. Hopefully, all will arrive intact, and the GG-1 runs well for me, but I am sure I will eventually need at least one replacement full side frame.
What operational issues are occurring from the GG-1s that show side frame bowing? derailing on O-72 curves?
bob2 posted:But even if the new owner is willing to do a production run, you would be risking the same problems in the other die cast parts. Wouldn't the body be from the same metal source?
So you have my sympathy - unless Lionel steps up, you will probably be left with swollen zamac all the way around.
The solution is to capture a Sunset GG1. I can tell you they are spectacular!
And now a question: does MTH have these problems with the Milwaukee Bi-Polar? I am collecting parts for a 2-railing project, and would not be happy if I drop a couple bills on exploding side frames.
Bob2, it is a batch to batch problem at the least. Also possible the Chinese mfrs use multiple local casting suppliers and one could make junk and the others not. If the batch or melt is contaminated, then all the parts cast from that batch will be affected but that is usually one mold and one run of a specific part. If they do not realize the problem via quality checks of the melt(batch) at that time, they will not clean the equipment and the next may also be contaminated and so forth. This is why you see all the side frames from one run of a loco affected but not the shell or other diecast parts in many cases. A bad part on a finished loco will not "infect" a good part because it has to do with the contaminant atoms in the bad parts molecular structure as cast. One of (but not the only) big sources is lead as it has a very very low solubility in certain zinc alloys.
for fun, I've posted this before, the Author's name is on the paper, but for those interested it may help you understand what is taking place. The diagram and case study are from a different article but illustrate the solubility limits with respect to the separate article. The tender is just an MTH one I saw on online that clearly has the pest so it's not just a high end engine problem. There is a lot of history to this manufacturing challenge.
With maybe a few exceptions? it appears the JLC GG1s most affected are the Silver and the Single Stripe green. At least that is what I have read here. I know my other four JLC G's are not affected.
Different years catalogued, different runs.
I have the single green stripe model, so far, so good. When the discussion started, I took it out and examined the sideframes very carefully and prodded and pried all over them, I don't see any evidence of deterioration. I'm hoping it stays that way...
Dennis, funny you should post this picture.
I saw this exact issue with an MTH RK PRR locomotive, the tender had developed a severe bow in the top, the whole structure just sagged. To their credit, even though it was over 10 years old, MTH replaced the shell.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Dennis, funny you should post this picture.
I saw this exact issue with an MTH RK PRR locomotive, the tender had developed a severe bow in the top, the whole structure just sagged. To their credit, even though it was over 10 years old, MTH replaced the shell.
I suspect they were able to do so either because it was a common shell part with other locos, or they had made a more recent version etc. I imagine the Railking products are a higher volume than Premier or the Lionel GG1 we started with. The point is it is excellent that they manned up in that case, but unfortunately, manning up may not be possible for all items given production run size etc. Dosen't make it right but probably more reality. This gotten me off running down a rabbit hole researching zinc allow processes etc, lol, to say the least it is an interesting subject to me....
Tony D. posted:I hope Lionel looks into this issue, and comes up with a solution soon. I just bought a JLC silver GG-1 single stripe online, and from the pics that the seller sent to me, one truck looks to be very straight while the other one is slightly, outwardly distorted near two of the three axles. Hopefully, all will arrive intact, and the GG-1 runs well for me, but I am sure I will eventually need at least one replacement full side frame.
What operational issues are occurring from the GG-1s that show side frame bowing? derailing on O-72 curves?
In my case, the side frames swelled so it was binding on the drive wheels and would not run. Trying to do anything with side frames - sanding to remove the bind, only resulted in the side frame disintegrating. Without the side frames, you can still run the GG1, but it can't pull any cars. The front and rear trucks with the couplers, attach to the side frames.
bob2 posted:Here are a couple photos of the Wolfer/duddy castings. These need slack adjusters, and have earlier Alexander lead trucks, but you get the idea. Ed Duddy had them jig-soldered.
Bob, are these parts somewhat available? ....if so, first glance looks like they could show promise as a repair part for the Lionels. Looks as if some trimming, and a sheet metal bracket could be fashioned to mount this frame, then figure out how to adapt and mount the front and rear truck assembly....this would certainly yield a bulletproof repair....and help the folks that are stuck in a rut with no parts availability......add on do-dads such as the slacks and what not would just enhance the model even further......I’m not excusing the mfr.....but if these can help some folks, sure be a nice repair....I’d be willing to to take a whack at one if these were accessible........thanks for showing these! ........Pat
Let me check - it is possible that Stevenson got the masters and molds.
Got it, Joe, thanks!
I should receive my used JLC GG-1 tomorrow and will inspect it thoroughly over the weekend. Hoping for the best!
Well, Oops! These things are $1700 models, apparently, even in the ugly Amtrak scheme. I would be way more upset than you guys are!
That’s why I’m saying the trucks you pictured Bob show some hope! ..some of these cats paid through the nose for these models ......they have nothing but a 1700 dollar paper weight.......unless Lionel steps up to the plate, those frames you pictured are like a ray of hope!....if those frames can be had, and someone is willing to send me their dilapidated model, I’d do the first one pro bono to see project feasibility....I have a full machine shop at my disposal, but no foundry equipment.....if I had the castings, I know I could manufacture nice looking brackets and hardware to mount these to the Lionel’s and have a robust sturdy repair.....I don’t own one these models, but I’d be willing to do the repairs.....I just need one pair of those duddy castings, and someone’s warped out Lionel.......we can make this happen.....please note everyone....I’m not excusing Lionel....Id just like to see these beauties fixed....better than the big L ever could imagine!.....Pat
I repaired my single stripe green scale GG1 by using Williams scale GG1 trucks. 
Gosh, I have the same one, but so far the frame seems solid as a rock. I sure hope it doesn't start rotting away, that would be a serious bummer! 
harmonyards posted:That’s why I’m saying the trucks you pictured Bob show some hope! ..some of these cats paid through the nose for these models ......they have nothing but a 1700 dollar paper weight....................
I think you might be mixing the original JLC ones that may have this problem to the later Vision Line ones (which I don't believe anyone has chimed in saying one of those has this problem yet).
The original JLCs were only ~$900 paper weights, unless someone paid a lot of money to buy a Penn Central one that was very highly sought after once it became known how few were made due to comparably low pre-orders vs. the other Pennsy models of that era.
Still not excusable for this not to be repairable, but not quite a $1700 paperweight.
-Dave
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