Lionel LCS components for switches

Vin,

Your "occasional issue with the switches responding to command control" is likely to be either:

1.) an antenna problem within the switches that exhibit the problem -- This is(a known issue for some of them. There is at least one thread within this forum that can help you fix this.  See this one for instance: LIONEL FASTRACK SWITCHES | Richie C.),

     or

2.) a problem with the propagation of the RF signal from the command base (there are also threads on how to fix this; a common symptom is a flickering headlight on your locomotive, but since switches have no headlight to flicker you wouldn't get this feedback indicating that you have an RF signal strength problem).

An ASC2 would definitely fix your issue by removing the radio signal and substituting hard-wired connections, but would involved adding more wiring, thereby removing the convenience of radio control.

Furthermore, if it's (2) above you'll also have "occasional issues" controlling your locomotives in the future, even if you haven't had any so far.

Mike

Turnout problem description from: VJandP - Getting Started

@VJandP posted:

... A weird issue came up with one of the turnouts.  It stopped responding to command control.  I swapped it with another turnout that was working but when I put the new turnout in that same position, it became unresponsive. And the first one that was not working, was working in its new location. It seems to be something with that location on the layout. Very weird considering I have multiple feeders to a common for that loop, which should help improve the signal, yes?   For now I will just wire the manual throw switch. I want to concentrate on getting the power up to the other loop and sidings and will troubleshoot later. If anyone has thoughts offhand, any feedback would be appreciated.

In addition to the considerations Mike suggested, there is a third possibility.  That would be insufficient signal from the earth ground side of the Legacy signal.  This is easily to check.  Connect a 3-prong grounded electrical extension chord to any outlet in the train room and roll it out under the layout.  The house ground wire acts as the other half of the Legacy signal, and sometimes is insufficient with lots of track.  The extension chord will help restore balance between the track signal and the earth ground signal.

This would be one possible explanation for why the turnouts work in some places an not others.

@Mellow Hudson Mike - @SteveH

Thank you for the confirmation and suggestions.   I’m anxious to try some of the fixes and will report back.

You guys are awesome!

I don’t have any hardware or know exactly what I’m doing yet but I created my layout in LCS.  

Ultimately, whether I figure out the signal issue or hard wire using ASC2, I love the idea of having an iPad as my control panel as opposed to building one with wires and toggle switches.

I really should be working right now …….  

I should add, that if the responsiveness of the switches to Legacy commands improves by increasing the earth ground half of the signal as described in my previous reply, a more permanent solution would be to run a separate earth ground wire around the layout.  This can be done by running an earth grounded wire beside the track or attached to the underside of the layout table top.

An update and a couple of questions…

I plugged in and laid out an extension cord underneath the table. But, that did not fix the responsiveness of the switch in question.   For now it’s no big deal because the trains run opposing the switch so the derailer function will throw it automatically anyways. In the meantime, I can hook up the manual toggle switch should I need to control it. But there is an ASC2 module in my future.

1) @SteveH Can you explain to me again why the extension cord idea may have worked? I don’t quite follow how it can enhance the signal.  Also, I have four bus wires running underneath the length of the table… 2 hot and 2 common. Wouldn’t this be more than enough to ensure a signal gets around the layout? Does the extension cord enhance even that?

2) I was reading through the various manuals for the LCS components. For the ASC2, the manual said I should not use LCS for remote command switches, which is what I have. Will this in any way ruin the LCS or ACS2 modules or the switch itself? Or is it just more of a caution that it would be redundant?  Also, it sounds like since I have remote command switches, the ASC2 isn’t needed unless I specifically want the hardwired connection.  (I will however add the STM1 module regardless so the switch position is shown correctly in the display.)

Thanks!

Vin

Answering question 1: Antennas like any electrical circuit require at least 2 conductors, just like you can't power a train or a light bulb with only one conductor.

Radio transmitters and receivers use electromagnetic radiation (or in the case of the 455kHz Legacy track signal capacitive coupling) through the air to send and receive signals.  The simplest ones use the literal ground as one conductor (reference) and electromagnetically radiated energy traveling through the air as the other conductor.  The airborne signal picked up by a radio receiver is much weaker than the ground signal.  Antennas are used to collect more energy from a weak signal traveling through the air.  The ground circuit in the radio receives the earth ground part of the signal.  If a receiver gets too much of one part of a transmitted signal compared to its counterpart, then it won't get a clear signal.  The two halves need to be somewhat in balance.

The TMCC Legacy signal is similar.  The Legacy Base transmits its signal partly through the outside track rails (via the U post connection) and the other half is sent from the Base through it's power supply ground plug into you house's ground wiring.  When the half of the signal transmitted by the rails sufficiently overpowers the airborne ground signal, loss of clear reception by Legacy receivers occurs.  The antennas in TMCC/Legacy switches and Locomotives are picking up the signal from the earth ground that then travels through the air.  The wheels get the other half of the signal directly from the outside rails (this can be thought of as the reference).

The loss of signal issue is not uncommon with TMCC/Legacy layouts having a lot of track in a fairly large open space.  To remedy this, some people run a separate wire from the house ground near their track to help balance the Legacy signal.

I you want to definitively confirm or refute this possibility as the cause of your switch issues, temporarily relocate the plugged in extension chord right over top of the switch that's being unresponsive to Legacy commands.  If that switch then works, we can discuss next steps...

I'm not qualified to answer your 2nd question about LCS and ASC2s and their use with switches.  Maybe @MartyE, @Railsounds or one of the other LCS gurus here on the forum could answer that question.

@SteveH As always, thank you for a detailed response.   I actually followed that and it makes sense.  I’ll switch up the cord locations.   Also, I ordered a stand alone antenna mentioned in another thread to connect to the base unit.  I’ll report back

@VJandP The stand alone antenna that connects to the Base2 is not related to the track/earth ground signal issues.  That antenna operates on a different frequency from the track signal and communicates with the Cab2 handheld remote.  If your remote is working otherwise, you don't need the Base2 antenna.

I made this mistake before. Legacy isn't transmitted by RF, I don't know the exact frequency but it would take a very long antenna because the wavelength is long. It is all electromagnetically induced fields and depends on capacitive coupling between the engine and ground place to complete the connection.

@VJandP posted:

An update and a couple of questions…

2) I was reading through the various manuals for the LCS components. For the ASC2, the manual said I should not use LCS for remote command switches, which is what I have. Will this in any way ruin the LCS or ACS2 modules or the switch itself? Or is it just more of a caution that it would be redundant?  Also, it sounds like since I have remote command switches, the ASC2 isn’t needed unless I specifically want the hardwired connection.  (I will however add the STM1 module regardless so the switch position is shown correctly in the display.)

Thanks!

Vin

My only thought on this is, if you have a command switch using the same ID as a ACS2 ID some unexpected results could occur.  I suspect if you gave the command switches an ID that, "in theory", would never be used as part of the ACS2 ID structure or assign the ASC2 to anything but 1 (Command Switch default)  you could get away with it.  I think the warning here is accidentally duplicating an address on the ASC2 that might be assigned to a command switch.

Antennas are often less than full wavelength.

The Legacy track signal frequency is 455kHz.  The Cab2/Base2 transmission frequency is in the 2.4GHz range (depending on the channel selected).

Both signals are well within the 3Hz to 300GHz Radio frequency spectrum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum

Steve, I agree the remote/base is RF.

Here is the explanation I received when I assumed the 455kHz signal was also RF, about 3/4 down the thread. The entire thread is very informative.

TMCC/Legach Weather Experiment

@MartyE

Marty, I'm starting from scratch when the Base3 shows up and I have dz1000 switch motors. If I wanted to control these with LCS what components would you recommend?

Dan, thank you for pointing out the distinction between Inductive Coupling and Capacitive coupling.  I also followed Adrian's Weather experiment thread and found it very enlightening.  

When you say that the 455kHz signal is not RF, I think you mean that it's not a more traditional electromagnetically induced signal, which is correct.  It is however still a Radio Frequency (RF) capacitively coupled signal.  The simplified distinction is that traditional RF is transmitted by magnetic wave propagation which induces a current flow through a coil (amplified by the antenna).  With the low power capacitive coupling of the 455kHz radio frequency signal used by Legacy, there is instead a voltage differential between the outside rails and the house ground.  This capacitively coupled voltage potential is how the signal is derived.

The tried an true method of extending the house ground signal by means of a wire (like the extension cord) increases the capacitance and the voltage potential (signal strength) that Legacy equipped devices will see.

@SteveH posted:

I should add, that if the responsiveness of the switches to Legacy commands improves by increasing the earth ground half of the signal as described in my previous reply, a more permanent solution would be to run a separate earth ground wire around the layout.  This can be done by running an earth grounded wire beside the track or attached to the underside of the layout table top.

Ideally, you actually want the earth ground wire to be above the problem track/switch.  Putting it under the table is not the optimum position.

Steve, you are correct and I should chose my words more carefully. These are certainly radio frequencies, but the TMCC/Legacy signal is not a radio transmission.

John, I'm glad you said it.  I was thinking that even though placing an extension cord under the layout has worked for some, that the metal cover plate under FasTrack switches could interfere with the earth ground reference from below.  Placing an earth ground above the track would be ideal, if practical.  Do you think suspending an extension cord from a ~12' high ceiling would be close enough or would it likely need to be within inches of the track?

Here is a picture of Vin's layout in his garage from the VJandP - Getting Started thread:

Dan, thank you for your replies.  I think we are in agreement.  After your first reply, I did slightly edit my earlier reply about Legacy track signal propagation, because you are absolutely correct that the Legacy signal is not technically a transmission in the electromagnetically radiated wave sense.

@SteveH posted:

John, I'm glad you said it.  I was thinking that even though placing an extension cord under the layout has worked for some, that the metal cover plate under FasTrack switches could interfere with the earth ground reference from below.  Placing an earth ground above the track would be ideal, if practical.  Do you think suspending an extension cord from a ~12' high ceiling would be close enough or would it likely need to be within inches of the track?

Best move would be to simply connect to the ground prong of the outlet (assuming the outlets are properly grounded) and running that single wire.  The addition of the extra power wires can only cause signal attenuation I would imagine.

Are we sure the remote command switches are programmed properly? If this is a signal issue I don't see how adding an ASC would help.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

Are we sure the remote command switches are programmed properly? If this is a signal issue I don't see how adding an ASC would help.

The only thing adding a ASC2 will do is give you a physical switch throw via the relays vs relying on the track signal.  It's not solving a signal issue more than working around it.

@MartyE posted:

The only thing adding a ASC2 will do is give you a physical switch throw via the relays vs relying on the track signal.  It's not solving a signal issue more than working around it.

Oh, I get it. The ASC has a serial command interface. Thanks for pointing that out.

I've done some reading on the different components, ASC, CSM2, etc., and I'm beginning to catch on. I believe the ASC is the component to answer my question from above, but with 20-something switches I may be better off changing out the motors to dz2500's and going that route.

Thanks for all the discussion.   Some interesting and valuable info here.

To reiterate a few things…

The switch in question responding sporadically was working in another location.   The original switch it was swapped with was responding sporadically to CAB1 control but is now working fine in it’s new location.

While ASC might be redundant for the other switches, the attraction of ASC is that it would allow control of the switch in the “haunted location”.  And since I want to use LSC anyway, it will allow me to throw the switch reliably, though it doesn’t solve the signal issue.   Also, I could connect the Lionel toggle switch but it’s too bulky and I prefer to use LSC.

Hello All -

I'm not a regular participant on the forum, but started to look for some guidance and answers to wiring up the Legacy LCS modules to MTH ScaleTrax Switches.  I can't find a definitive answer in all the manuals and videos, so I thought with the experience here, I'd give it a shot.  If I'm in the wrong forum, please let me know.  I'm building a large layout with ScaleTrax track and switches, and just want to confirm my wiring designs.  This may be a very simple approach, but given discussion of different switch machines, I just want to make sure of the wiring before burning some component out.  I've attached two diagrams - one with the ScaleTrax switch and the LCS ASC2 module.  The other also incorporates the LCS STM2 module.  I'm sure the STM2 is correct, but I want to know if I can use the ASC2 in this setup.  Thanks.

Rich