VJandP - Getting Started

Had time this weekend to work on the layout.   Track is pretty much finished.   I’ll add some additional sidings but it’s not a priority.  Plus, I don’t think I have much room to add any more.   Still have to return and swap the turn out that won’t program.

Didn’t think I would be able to have an entrance and exit crossover between the 2nd and 3rd loops but I was able to tuck the extra turnouts near the crossings.  

Really like how the double crossover section came out.  The Fastrack geometry came together nicely.   This area is a scene that will carry over to the future layout where I’ll have a short line crossing a double mainline, though there will be additional turnouts to accommodate interchange switching.

If I was adding detail to this layout, the parallel sidings would be perfect for an engine maintenance facility.  

Next I need to double check the wiring and program the new turnouts.   Hopefully I can do a few test runs tomorrow.  

@VJandP posted:

Found an inexpensive, sturdy storage option that required little effort to set up.  

A lateral filing cabinet cost me $60 from Facebook Marketplace.  A few more bucks for rubber liners for the drawers and I have someplace to store much of my rolling stock and engines.  This should keep them dust free, too.  And now everything is easily accessible.  Ideally something that has more shallow drawers and a few extra drawers would have been sweet but I can’t argue when the universe drops an opportunity in front of you  

He had a few of these cabinets and I think I’m going to grab another one since this one is working so well.  

Vin

Welcome to the Forum.....you have done a lot in the past 2 months.....I love your storage idea and look forward to your progress.

Peter

Your track fits together very nicely.  Very smooth!

Today was a little frustrating.  Was hoping to have some trains running but electrical issues derailed those plans - pun intended.

Issue: Track power is erratic.  Engines will stall and the lanterns on the turnouts will go out.    

I think part of the issue are the turnout’s sensitivity to how level they’re laying which I’ve already noticed.   But now that I have the track Tetris’d together, the slight bows and humps are causing issues.   If I press down the road bed, that section will be ok.  I need to order more screws to fasten down a larger part of the layout.  But before screwing everything down ….

After doing some searching, I might have a power issue - too much load per channel.   The outer loop has 5 turnouts on track power.  The 2nd and 3rd loops each have 4. The 3rd loop also has 2 lighted bumpers. It might be in order to run a bus around the layout to distribute the power better.   I’m going to post in the electrical forum with some questions.

The other thing is that I noticed the ZW-L was humming.   Not sure if that has anything to do with anything or if it was there before, but it was really noticeable today. I swear sections of the track sounded like they were humming too but that could’ve been sound from a different source that I couldn’t localize.

@VJandP posted:

Today was a little frustrating.  Was hoping to have some trains running but electrical issues derailed those plans - pun intended.

Issue: Track power is erratic.  Engines will stall and the lanterns on the turnouts will go out.    

I think part of the issue are the turnout’s sensitivity to how level they’re laying which I’ve already noticed.   But now that I have the track Tetris’d together, the slight bows and humps are causing issues.   If I press down the road bed, that section will be ok.  I need to order more screws to fasten down a larger part of the layout.  But before screwing everything down ….

After doing some searching, I might have a power issue - too much load per channel.   The outer loop has 5 turnouts on track power.  The 2nd and 3rd loops each have 4. The 3rd loop also has 2 lighted bumpers. It might be in order to run a bus around the layout to distribute the power better.   I’m going to post in the electrical forum with some questions.

Vin, I empathize with your power issues.  Been there done that with FasTrack.  My first two recommendations would be to wire the switches directly with Aux Power and Ground.  The Second, sounds like you're already thinking this, add track feeders (hot and common) every 6-10 track pieces.

If you post on the electrical forum, I would suggest including your latest SCARM plan.

@SteveH. As always, thank you for your input and confirming I’m heading in the right direction. Your responses are faster than Domino’s delivery.

Funny.  I don't offer free pizza if I'm late though.

Vin, I agree with Steve.  I had similar issues with Fastrack and took the Sam action as Steve as others recommended here a few years back.  You’ll get it worked out.

@SteveH posted:

Vin, I empathize with your power issues.  Been there done that with FasTrack.  My first two recommendations would be to wire the switches directly with Aux Power and Ground.  The Second, sounds like you're already thinking this, add track feeders (hot and common) every 6-10 track pieces.

If you post on the electrical forum, I would suggest including your latest SCARM plan.

Using a separate power source for the switches or just wiring them direct off the track power bus? Not an issue for me at the moment but thinking about the future when a dozen switches are in play.

There are 2 main reasons I prefer to have FasTrack switches wired on their own separate bus, powered at about 14 - 16 volts AC.  This allows a different track voltage (good for conventional and command).  The other reason for this electrical separation is that in addition to having TVS diodes installed in appropriate locations around the layout, keeping switches on a different bus helps protect the electronics inside them from the transient voltage spikes on the track power circuit caused by a derailment.

If anyone has links to a thread or a good guide on how to do this, it would be appreciated. All the searching I’m doing, there’s always opinions on what the best wway to do it is.

I am going to use one of the accessory channels on the ZW-L.  I’ll run that to a bus and from there to the turnouts. What gauge wire would be best to do this with?   Also, one video I watched said to only run a hot lead to the turnouts and use common ground through the track? Or do I need to do a hot and ground to eat turnout?

@GregK posted:

Using a separate power source for the switches or just wiring them direct off the track power bus? Not an issue for me at the moment but thinking about the future when a dozen switches are in play.

@GregK Like you, I was fine while there were only 5 turnouts.  Now I have 13 and things are getting a bit wonky.  Power delivery isn’t consistent.    It’s not just the turnouts, the overall performance of the layout decreased dramatically as I expanded it.  

@VJandP posted:

@GregK Like you, I was fine while there were only 5 turnouts.  Now I have 13 and things are getting a bit wonky.  Power delivery isn’t consistent.    It’s not just the turnouts, the overall performance of the layout decreased dramatically as I expanded it.  

My little 4x8 layout with 2 loops seems fine with only one track drop on each loop, but I’m still doing two on each loop just to be safe. Like the others said, just need feeders every so often. People also bend the center FasTrack pins to encourage better contact but you have a ton of track… I would think on a layout your size, 3-4 drops per loop would give you good coverage. But I’m no expert, just basing that on with the pros post here. 😊

@GregK posted:

My little 4x8 layout with 2 loops seems fine with only one track drop on each loop, but I’m still doing two on each loop just to be safe. Like the others said, just need feeders every so often. People also bend the center FasTrack pins to encourage better contact but you have a ton of track… I would think on a layout your size, 3-4 drops per loop would give you good coverage. But I’m no expert, just basing that on with the pros post here. 😊

Good call out on bending the pins. Every little bit helps, right?   I had read that somewhere also. I definitely need more drops to the track for starters.  How are you connecting wires to the track? Using the built-in terminals? Soldiering?

I just realized, the way my track plan is laid out, most of the straight sections on the loops are taken up by turnouts and crossovers. I don’t have many 10” straight sections with terminals to connect to. I’m gonna have to figure out a way how to attach power to curved sections, 5” straights or something else…

Dedicated turnout power bus wires' gauge will depend on the number of turnouts connected and the bus length.  If only a few switches, 18-16 gauge would be fine on a small layout with 18 gauge feeders.  For a larger layout I'd suggest 14 gauge bus wires with 18 gauge feeders.  Switch grounds should be tied to track common at the main distribution point near the transformer(s, and phased if more than one transformer).

Feeder wiring to the turnouts would be: Hot to Aux power terminal, Common to the power ground terminal.

Track Power can be connected to any piece of track by soldering to the rail tabs under the roadbed.  Track pieces with spade connection tabs include: Full curves, 10" and 1-3/8" straights.

Thanks, guys.  I didn’t realize the curved sections had terminals under them.   I think I’ll run a feeder to each “corner” of each loop - 4 drops per loop.  Maybe 2 more on the longer sides of the outermost loop.  I picked up the .001 spade connectors or whatever that size is, so I can make feeder wires w/ connectors.   For the future layout, I think I need to pick up some soldering skills.  

@SteveH Thanks for the detailed info. Hate to sound like a total newb, but can you break it down a little more for me?    After reading your input, here’s what I was going to do.  Let me know if I misinterpreted or there’s a better way …

For the turnouts, from an accessory channel [C] on the ZW-L, I was going to set the channel to 14 volts.   Since everything is being run off of the same transformer, I don’t think there will be any issues with phasing.   I’ll feed a hot wire and a ground to 2 separate bus bars.   Each turnout will be tapped into a hot and ground respectively on each bus bars.

When you mentioned “Switch grounds should be tied to track common at the main distribution point near the transformer…”, I wasn’t sure what you meant by the main distribution point.  Will the bus bars do the same thing?

@VJandP posted:

..“Switch grounds should be tied to track common at the main distribution point near the transformer…”, I wasn’t sure what you meant by the main distribution point.  Will the bus bars do the same thing?

Bus wires and bus bars are essentially the same thing electrically; a means of connecting more than one electrical load via a central current carrying apparatus (bus) to the power source.  In the case of grounds, they should all be tied together somewhere, typically at or near the transformer.

If you're planning for DCS then all power should be tied back to a central distribution hub that is fed by the transformer.  The latter is known as star wiring.  For more on that I would recommend reading the DCS Companion.

@GregK posted:

Are your loops isolated/blocked or is everything on the same circuit and sharing the same power?

@GregK As of right now, I do not have blocks though that is in the future. Do I need isolated blocks to run feeder wires around the loop?   Or is it OK to have multiple hot and grounds on the same continuous loop of track?

@VJandP posted:

@GregK As of right now, I do not have blocks though that is in the future. Do I need isolated blocks to run feeder wires around the loop?   Or is it OK to have multiple hot and grounds on the same continuous loop of track?

Isolated blocks are optional and depend on whether you'll be running DCS and/or conventional and other factors.  For what you're doing right now with your test track you could skip them for the time being.

Multiple feeders on the same block will help reduce the voltage drops you're experiencing.  But if you'll be running MTH DCS locomotives, there are limitations to the way feeders can be connected to track blocks without interfering with the DCS signal.

Invest in some good needle nose pliers. Helpful when slipping the spade connectors onto the track tabs. They make a really snug fit and are a good alternative to soldering but a bit of a pain to slide on. The little spade connectors work well tho. Slide a wire in and crimp it. Forms a good bond and I imagine it wouldn’t come apart under normal circumstances. I put a few together tonight from the ones I posted from eBay.

@SteveH posted:

Isolated blocks are optional and depend on whether you'll be running DCS and/or conventional and other factors.  For what you're doing right now with your test track you could skip them for the time being.

Multiple feeders on the same block will help reduce the voltage drops you're experiencing.  But if you'll be running MTH DCS locomotives, there are limitations to the way feeders can be connected to track blocks without interfering with the DCS signal.

Thanks, Steve.  As it turns out, the conventional engines are DC powered and will have to have their own dedicated loop or sit on the shelf for now.   I’ll wire some blocks on the test layout but primarily for sidings to park engines.  For now I’ll skip the block and get the power continuity and turnouts straightened out.  👍🏼

@GregK posted:

Invest in some good needle nose pliers. Helpful when slipping the spade connectors onto the track tabs. They make a really snug fit and are a good alternative to soldering but a bit of a pain to slide on. The little spade connectors work well tho. Slide a wire in and crimp it. Forms a good bond and I imagine it wouldn’t come apart under normal circumstances. I put a few together tonight from the ones I posted from eBay.

Great suggestion.   Really appreciate all of your input on my posts.   👍🏼

@VJandP posted:

Thanks, Steve.  As it turns out, the conventional engines are DC powered and will have to have their own dedicated loop or sit on the shelf for now.   I’ll wire some blocks on the test layout but primarily for sidings to park engines.  For now I’ll skip the block and get the power continuity and turnouts straightened out.  👍🏼

You can use those 1 3/8 fitter sections to wire the blocks. Put them at the beginning of the siding, and remove the jumper. Then wire a hot with an on/off switch to a tab on the siding. Easy enough but can consume a lot of extra wire with runs to the control panel. Unless you just place the on/off switch right at the block.

Haven’t made much progress on the layout itself but I have been able to get organized and prepare for the wiring extravaganza.

I didn’t have many electrical tools and supplies so I’ve been digging through what I have and ordering some new stuff.   I have a PC tool kit with extra small tool attachments that have been perfect for working with the turnouts.  I’ve built up a supply of wires, spade connectors and splurged for some new crimping tools and voltmeter. At some point I’ll start experimenting with a soldering iron as well.  Everything is laying out on the workbench for now until the new cabinet arrives next week.

Speaking of the workbench, I was finally able to clear out some space to work.  Until I get the layout table organized again, the ZW-L will sit on the workbench Ultimately I think I need to buy a small transformer to keep there so I have something to power up and test things.  Not a fancy area but it will do for now.   The only other thing I’d really like to buy for this area is an antistatic mat.  I need to move the totes in the background and I’ll be able to shift the work area down. Speaking of those totes, part of the organizing I’ve done was to get all of my eBay Fasttrack purchases sorted.

And, the layout itself… I’m ready to begin work on rewiring, adding direct power to the turnouts, and then finally mount the track to the tabletop with screws to help with the electrical connections.  I’m hoping this weekend I can at least get the outer loop set up. It’s been weeks since I’ve been able to run any trains.  We’re supposed to be hit with a really bad ice storm so we might lose power for part of the weekend. Fingers crossed that doesn’t happen and I have the better part of the weekend.

If you run into any difficulty with your wire to wire connections (e.g, bus to feeder), consider the Wago lever connectors. You can buy an assorted pack on Amazon, for example, and they are excellent. I've done all my wiring with them so far, and it makes connecting (and re-connecting) everything a breeze.

@GregK posted:

If you run into any difficulty with your wire to wire connections (e.g, bus to feeder), consider the Wago lever connectors. You can buy an assorted pack on Amazon, for example, and they are excellent. I've done all my wiring with them so far, and it makes connecting (and re-connecting) everything a breeze.

I second the recommendation for using Wago lever nuts sized for 24 to 12 gauge wires.  They come in 3-way and 5 way connectors, allowing easy branching.

@VJandP the red and blue cylindrical crimp connectors you have pictured above are hit or miss for reliability with stranded wire, I don't use them anymore.

It is a great idea to get organized, otherwise you are always looking for something.  I used the same Wago connectors for the first time on my current layout.  I really like them.

All, as always, thank you for the suggestions. I think I have something very similar to the connectors mentioned. They are Home Depot brand I believe, “Insure”.  They look very similar to the Wago connectors.   I’ll share a few pictures of the connectors in my next update.  👍🏼

Finally made some noteworthy progress.  The bus for the outer loop is complete and I was able to run trains for the first time in over a month.  A few hours here, a few hours there, drilling holes to drop feeders through the tabletop, drilling holes and tacking up wire ties to run the bus under the table… It all finally came together tonight.

I’m going to do something different with each loop to see which method I like the best. I’ll post some detailed feedback after I complete all 3 loops so I can compare and contrast everything. The outer loop that is up and running uses 2 (two) 25’ wires, one each for hot and common, with the feeders using a “clip-on splicer” attachment. The second loop I’m going to use the push together wire nuts. And on the third loop I’m going to do a bus with star wiring.

Having the right tools makes the job so much easier. The crimping tool and the voltmeter were especially helpful.

The outer loop is 12’ x 8‘ with a passing siding and has 12 feeders.  The other 2 loops don’t have as much track and won’t have as many feeders, so I’m hoping to work my way through them more quickly.

You may have seen my post in the electrical forum about the turnouts   Apparently I have a few units that may have been wired incorrectly from the factory.   Wiring them for direct power will require some rearranging and re-soldering of a few wires.   I don’t have the tools or the gumption to take that on right now so they’ll have to run off track power.   Once the track is rewired and then screwed down, hopefully there won’t be any erratic power issues with them.

I’m not going to mess around with block wiring just yet.  

An early birthday gift is coming (Mr Muffin custom run Erie Camelback)    so I’m looking forward to getting all three loops wwired and enjoying some run time.  

2nd loop up and running!   Granted there were fewer feeders but working with the wire nuts seem to go much more quickly.   Because I’m experimenting with different methods to wire, I skipped doing a common ground. Each loop will have a hot and common.

Also, I’m realizing the differences between working with stranded versus solid wire. Stranded is easier to run and manipulate but doesn’t work so well with the wire nuts.  I imagine the Wago lever nuts work better with stranded.

A weird issue came up with one of the turnouts.  It stopped responding to command control.  I swapped it with another turnout that was working but when I put the new turnout in that same position, it became unresponsive. And the first one that was not working, was working in its new location. It seems to be something with that location on the layout. Very weird considering I have multiple feeders to a common for that loop, which should help improve the signal, yes?   For now I will just wire the manual throw switch. I want to concentrate on getting the power up to the other loop and sidings and will troubleshoot later. If anyone has thoughts offhand, any feedback would be appreciated.

Sounds good.  Yes the Wago connectors work well with stranded or solid wire.

Linking to a great discussion I started in another thread about Lionel LCS and troubleshooting unresponsive command control switches.

Running some trains.

Auto Racks … Doing it old school

And this is happening.    More to come …  

But first, I have to finish wiring the inner-most loop and getting power to the sidings.  

Free metal file cabinets are often offered on Craigslist and other web sites.

Covid has many offices closing and get rid of office type furniture.

Computers have replaced paper as the file media of choice.

But our Trains still need a storage place between runs.

The kids busy with friends, the wife pursuing her own hobbies, and a significant chunk of my honey-do list complete on Saturday (hung a ceiling fan, cleared some downed trees, bathed the dog, plus changed out the sister-in-law’s car battery), equals 6 glorious, guilt free hours working on the layout on Sunday.    

I have flicker free, stabile power to all 3 loops!  The outer loop and most of the middle were complete last weekend.  I tied up a few things (literally) on loop 2,  completed loop 3, and cleaned up some wiring.  The sidings are powered off their respective main lines for now.  Wiring blocks will be next.  

Loop 1

Hot and common bus wires run around the perimeter of the table.  Feeders for both hot and common dropped at 9 locations.  Spade connectors at the track were crimped to wires with male spade connectors that pushed into "clip on splicers” on the bus wires.  This loop felt like it took the longest to complete - probably due in part that it had the most feeds and crimping was tedious.   In this pic you can see some blue tracer wire.  I had an idea to twist different color tracer wire with the wiring for different loops to help differentiate them under the table.  

_________________________________________________

Loop 2

Using push on “wire nuts,” loop 2 went fairly quickly.  The track feeders were dropped thru the table.  I worked my way around the table, cutting wire to size from feeder to feeder, using the wire nut to connect the run from the previous feeder, the current feeder, and a starting a lead to the next feeder.  This was done for both a hot and common.

_______________________________________

Loop 3

Bus bars, baby!  Track feeders dropped from their locations around the layout to a common corner of the table.  Wires cut to size and connected to a hot and common bus.

________________________________________________

What did I learn?

Crimping is tedious.  Even with the right tools it felt time consuming.  And with stranded wire, if the crimp wasn’t positioned just right, it would break leaving a dangling connection that had to be cut, stripped, and crimped again.

The wire nuts were awesome.  Since the wires only had to be stripped to push into the connector, the process went quicker.  Didn’t need the additional step of threading and crimping an intermediate connection.   I wish I had the Wago lever nuts.   The Insure connectors I had don’t work well with stranded wire so I used solid wire.   The solid wire was definitely more tricky to work with.  It was stubborn and took more fiddling to unroll, twist and bend it into position.

Overall I think I liked using the bus bars best.   For me it was easier to organize the wires and run them and it looks much neater.   It uses more wire but I’m OK with that.  Plus, the connections are more secure with fewer breaks.

I picked up a soldering iron that I’m anxious to practice with.  I can see the benefits of soldering a feeder wire from the track and running a single, continuous wire directly to the bus bar.  Fewer connections, a more durable connection at the track, and in my mind easier to organize.

With the buses and feeders in place, power delivery to the engines and switches has been flawless.  I’m so psyched I made it this far.

Next up, setting up block power on the sidings.  I have to decide if I’m going to do it with hard wiring and toggle switches or thru LCS.

I also have to decide how much troubleshooting I want to do with some of the switches.  There’s the command signal for a couple of them and there are some with incorrect factory wiring that prevents using a direct power feed instead of track power.  Now that track power has been sorted out, I’ll see how reliable it is over the next few weeks.

I have most of the LCS modules I need.  I’m waiting on the block power module and another ASC2 for the switches.  If I jump right into LCS, I can wire the blocks and by pass the switch issues.   The switch control should work with the switches that are responding to command control but until the STM1 feedback module is in place it won’t update switch position in LCS.   Once I start LCS setup, I’m feeling like it will be all or nothing.

In the mean time, the trains are running!  Just in time for my early birthday gift arriving this week … Mr Muffin custom run Erie Legacy Camelback  

All 3 loops running …

Switching from the inner loop to outer loops …

@VJandP posted:

The kids busy with friends, the wife pursuing her own hobbies, and a significant chunk of my honey-do list complete on Saturday (hung a ceiling fan, cleared some downed trees, bathed the dog, plus changed out the sister-in-law’s car battery), equals 6 glorious, guilt free hours working on the layout on Sunday.    

I have flicker free, stabile power to all 3 loops!  The outer loop and most of the middle were complete last weekend.  I tied up a few things (literally) on loop 2,  completed loop 3, and cleaned up some wiring.  The sidings are powered off their respective main lines for now.  Wiring blocks will be next.  

Loop 1

Hot and common bus wires run around the perimeter of the table.  Feeders for both hot and common dropped at 9 locations.  Spade connectors at the track were crimped to wires with male spade connectors that pushed into "clip on splicers” on the bus wires.  This loop felt like it took the longest to complete - probably due in part that it had the most feeds and crimping was tedious.   In this pic you can see some blue tracer wire.  I had and idea to twist different color tracer wire with the wiring for different loops to help differentiate them under the table.  

_________________________________________________

Loop 2

Using push on “wire nuts,” loop 2 went fairly quickly.  The track feeders were dropped thru the table.  I worked my way around the table, cutting wire to size from feeder to feeder, using the wire nut to connect the run from the previous feeder, the current feeder, and a starting a lead to the next feeder.  This was done for both a hot and common.

_______________________________________

Loop 3

Bus bars, baby!  Track feeders dropped from their locations around the layout to a common corner of the table.  Wires cut to size and connected to a hot and common bus.

________________________________________________

What did I learn?

Crimping is tedious.  Even with the right tools it felt time consuming.  And with stranded wire, if the crimp wasn’t positioned just right, it would break leaving a dangling connection that had to be cut, stripped, and crimped again.

The wire nuts were awesome.  Since the wires only had to be stripped to push into the connector, the process went quicker.  Didn’t need the additional step of threading and crimping an intermediate connection.   I wish I had the Wago lever nuts.   The Insure connectors I had don’t work well with stranded wire so I used solid wire.   The solid wire was definitely more tricky to work with.  It was stubborn and took more fiddling to unroll, twist and bend it into position.

Overall I think I like the using the bus bars best.   For me it was easier to organize the wires and run them and it looks much neater.   It uses more wire but I’m OK with that.  Plus, the connections are more secure with fewer breaks.

I picked up a soldering iron that I’m anxious to practice with.  I can see the benefits of soldering a feeder wire from the track and running a single, continuous wire directly to the bus bar.  Fewer connections, a more durable connection at the track, and in my mind easier to organize.

With the buses and feeders in place, power delivery to the engines and switches has been flawless.  I’m so psyched I made it this far.

Next up, setting up block power on the sidings.  I have to decide if I’m going to do it with hard wiring and toggle switches or thru LCS.

I also have to decide how much troubleshooting I want to do with some of the switches.  There’s the command signal for a couple of them and there are some with incorrect factory wiring that prevents using a direct power feed instead of track power.  Now that track power has been sorted out, I’ll see how reliable it is over the next few weeks.

…

Nice to see the use of 3 different connection methods in one post.  There has been a lot of discussion about the "best" method - your demonstration should help people understand the pros and cons of each.

Looks like you need a couple of more cabin cars to make those trains "legal" on the mainline.

Chuck

Nice use of various connectors!!