Lionel Legacy ES44AC Engine(s) in Santa Fe Livery Numbers 444 & 440

I think that 2 ES44 should be able to pull 45 cars together. Usually MTH pull more but I would say, there could be a problem with it in lash up. Running it as the same ID might help for a little while. 

I would also clean the wheels and oil them on the Passenger Cars, if you haven't run them in along time.

MIke

Great looking train. As heavy as that load is those two diesels should be able to pull it

Bring it again this Friday and lets try this with my 2 Williams Santa Fe diesels.  Also how about running it on the Branch line where the Video opportunities are better ad we can video this for the Forum!!  Call Me

Steve

It's not a question of what a diesel MTH or LIONEL SHOULD PULL; the correct question is what an Engine does pull with the relative amps and required voltages to pull it.

Long ago someone here suggested that an "Engine's Drawpull" should be posted on the outside of the box along side all the other bells and whistles. There should be a standard car or cars with weights that when connected to an engine will pull so many pounds across straight track and curved track and the electrical power required.

Then you could determine if an engine will pull what you want to pull for the load you have in mind without the guesswork and being angry AFTER you get the engine and re-working the electrical loads.

Mike,

The train consist looks terrific.   I am surprised you are having pulling all the passenger cars.   The grades on our layout are not that severe.  How many cars will a single engine pull on the red line or the blue line?    Usually on the Blue line at block 8 going into 9 you see a a jump in amps as that is the beginning of the climb to the upper part of the Blue line.    I am very surprised the engines can not pull the load.   Were all the traction tires present on both engines?   Did you shut down the smoke units on the engines?   What night will you be at club next week? 

To SDIV TIM - The recommendations that you made were done before the cars and engines went on the track.

I am planning on using two MTH diesels to see if they have the same problem with pulling nine of the passengers, then adding one car at a time. If two MTH diesels can pull the full consist and two Lionel engines cannot, I will in all honesty never buy another Lionel engine if it cannot pull such a moderate amount of cars. The only other option for the Lionel engines is to use them as freight engines and also see how much they can pull.

Only time will tell about how I will like or hate these engines.

Please keep us posted as these are really nice engines, well detailed, and great runners, individually. I always run 2 or 3 of these larger diesels in Legacy  Lash Ups...15 to 20 or more cars, standard O, etc. Up and over with a 2.5 or less grade. Thank you for this post. Please send a picture of your train to my email, Larrylevin71@yahoo.com.....Thanks.

Mike,  Please keep us posted with your results.  I originally purchased the same two locomotives and then purchased a third that I found at a super, super price.  So I now have 3 units which I plan to use with my GGD El Capitan passenger set.  I currently have 8 cars from the first production run, and an RPO and extra lounge car due in from the second production run sometime later this year.  So I'll be watching your situation closely.

Last year at York, Atlas-O had 3 of their powered F-units pulling 12 or 13 CZ cars on Atlas-O's big dogbone demo layout .  I recall Jerry Kimble mentioning that two powered units would do the trick on a level grade, but they added the third to help keep the locomotives running a bit "cooler" since they were running them 8 hours a day.  If I recall correctly, he also commented that a third powered unit would be recommended with that length of train (i.e., 12+ cars) running on layouts with reasonable grades.  Again, these were Atlas-O F-unit locomotives.

Best of luck!!!

David 

I found this article from the topic entitled ES44 DIESEL REPAIR - From Alex M

         A fellow forum member was having a few issues with his Lionel ES44 Diesel, which was manufactured in 2010. He said the engine seems not to have much power and doesn't run well, so we gave it a test run on my layout . Of course the engine ran fine, in fact, it couldn't have performed any better than it did. We ran it for quite a while with no issue.  He had to leave and said keep the engine and you will see the engine will start to have problems. 

     On his way home he called me and asked me to put a heavy load behind it, so I put 6 18 inch passenger cars behind it. Soon as I did that the engine started slowing down and was having trouble keeping a normal pace immediately.  I suspected the cruise was in the off position, but that wasn't the case. Next I would suspect the speed control might be failing but that wasn't the case either.  He kept telling me the motors are no good because a few people had the same issue and as soon as they changed the motors everything was fine. This was hard for me to believe so now it was time for me to take a close look at the motors.

    Well, he was on the right track that it had SORT of  something to do with the motors, but I still couldn't believe that the motors were bad so i took off the trucks and was able to get a look at the 4 prong impeller which drives the trucks.  When i grabbed the impeller and spun the flywheel (guess what) I was able to hold the impeller and the shaft was spinning. So there was our loss of power.

  I would imagine this impeller is pressed on at the factory and some kind of adhesive is added to hold this impeller to the shaft, so I cleaned both motor shafts and impeller's thoroughly. I then added Loctite 380 carefully to the impeller and set the impeller on to the shaft, waited a few hours and the engine was able to pull 8 18 inch aluminum passenger cars very easily, so problem solved.

I am attempting to call the store where I purchase my two engines and see if they can come up with a similar fix as stated above.

I will post the results as soon as possible.

Santa Fe Mike,

      You may want to read Alex M's thread about repairing the ES44AC engines:

         https://ogrforum.com/topic/es44-diesel-repair

      I could not play your video but maybe this thread will shed some light on your issue.

      Have you contacted Lionel about the issue, their service is excellent and quick

      Good Luck

JohnB

John B, Rocky Mountaineer, Leaping Larry and others: I went to the club last night since I could not sleep and I conducted a final test on these loveable engines. I believe that the impeller gear (article from the topic entitled ES44 DIESEL REPAIR - From Alex M) is slipping on either one DC Motor per engine or both DC Motors per Engine. Since I purchased these engines and received them on December 28th., 2015 from the dealer I ordered them from, I am going to call Lionel and ask for a RA Number to have them inspected and, according to the aforementioned article, they should perform the repair that Marty Fitzhenry suggested.

As follows from Marty Fitzhenry's post:

The bottom of the motor shaft has a few splines cut into it (in most cases) and pressing the plastic impeller on at the factory usually holds it.  I have seen one like Alex pointed out where no spline was present.  One fix if you end up with a shaft with little or no spline is to grab the shaft carefully with a set of pliers with fresh gripping teeth and make your own spline to press the impeller onto.  What Alex did is a good fix and will hold for the long haul.  Locktite is well known to car guys.  In building motors we always used Locktite on rod bolts and main bolts.  Alex knows all the good tricks.   Great tip Alex with the Locktite.  Good pickup on the issue.  Many would go for a motor.  

Since the Engines are still under warranty, I feel that Lionel should perform the above modification/repair and then these engines should perform better. When you figure that I spent well over $1,800.00 to purchase the Lionel 990 Legacy Command Set, the 993 Add On Controller and base, and these two engines, I should be entitled to having the engines work without any problems.

Again, this post will be updated as information and repairs progress. I thank everyone for their kind inout into helping me with this problem.

To All: Situation Resolved. The entire problem was that I did not factor into effect the combined weight of all of the passenger cars and probably not lubricating the trucks well enough. My thanks to everyone who assisted me in this situation, and my apologies if I angered / offended anyone over my blowing this minor item out of proportion. Thank You again, THE OGR Forum, and the Technical Support Guru's for all of your help.

Mike, glad to hear you were able to get things resolved.  Love to hear happy endings!!!  

David

Santa Fe Mike posted:

To All: Situation Resolved. The entire problem was that I did not factor into effect the combined weight of all of the passenger cars and probably not lubricating the trucks well enough.  help.

I'm afraid I'm confused. Are you now saying that the impeller not being properly attached to the motor shaft was NOT the problem?

To BREEZINUP: I cannot continue to add posts to this topic as I have gone way to far with this post. Safe to say I have a workable resolution, and I will have to live with it.

Lets run em Friday at the club!!!!. Remind me later in the week and I'll bring my camcorder

They are a great looking pair of engines and the passenger set is gorgeous!

The passenger set is indeed gorgeous, just glad you have a workable solution Mike.

Hello, Fellow OGR Forumites: Attached is a link to YouTube showing the Lionel ES44AC engines and my passenger set.

As follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ge&v=rSs0KdejKPg

Enjoy this little video.