Lionel Legacy K4 Gear Box fix, Tales From Harmon Shops

@PH1975 posted:

harmonyards - Does your passing grade comment for the Pacific type engine include the four (4) 2012 models (to which I referred above) or just the more recent versions? Thanks.

I have a 2012 model myself,…..I’ll open that one up, and that will put that whole family of Pacifics to bed once and for all,….I’m fairly confident they’ll require no action as well,….but we’re presenting known facts not speculation, so I will open one up and confirm….

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Hmm, that sounds like a good thing on the Pacific's Pat. I think when I get time tonight I will do some editing. I think maybe the best part for editing would be to move the list over to my post on page 1 right below yours. I can still leave it on page 2 as well, just so things don't get out of whack as far as some of the replies that may not make any sense if it was gone. I'll add whatever bits above about the motors at the top of the post that is to be re-edited, whatever seems the sensible solution. What do you think?

Dave that sounds like an excellent idea,….. thanks for for sticking along on this journey!…it would be really nice to put the list right under the first post!….that’ll make directing folks simpler….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

The Pacifics are ok, no actions required. I just haven’t had time to post up my findings,…..

Pat  

Thanks for the response.  MrMuffin’s NYC Pacific is on the maybe, can’t make up my mind, with any luck they will sell out, list.

@GregM posted:

Thanks for the response.  MrMuffin’s NYC Pacific is on the maybe, can’t make up my mind, with any luck they will sell out, list.

Mr.Steve’s NYC Legacy Pacific is a custom run done by his store only,…..I wouldn’t dilly dally along too long……once they’re gone, that’s it …..

Pat

@GregM posted:

Thanks for the response.  MrMuffin’s NYC Pacific is on the maybe, can’t make up my mind, with any luck they will sell out, list.

Greg, Pat actually has my Mr. Muffin's Pacific in his hands currently. Jump on it if it is still there. Don Klose had his running as soon as they got sent out. I have the Blue B&O sitting downstairs currently and was waiting for Pat's report on if these were okay or not to send it out to him.

Okay, the list is updated, has Pat's reply about the motors, highlisted, bold and italicized in a few bits to bring attention to.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Greg, Pat actually has my Mr. Muffin's Pacific in his hands currently. Jump on it if it is still there. Don Klose had his running as soon as they got sent out. I have the Blue B&O sitting downstairs currently and was waiting for Pat's report on if these were okay or not to send it out to him.

Dave, just inspected your Pacific, ….it is good, no actions required…..I’ll post up pics when I have time, ….got a couple jig saw puzzles on the bench at the moment,….we can say with certainty that all of the Pacifics are ok!….so …PASS!…

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Dave, just inspected your Pacific, ….it is good, no actions required…..I’ll post up pics when I have time, ….got a couple jig saw puzzles on the bench at the moment,….we can say with certainty that all of the Pacifics are ok!….so …PASS!…

Pat

So we mark the 2018 Pacific's and add the 2021 Pacific's as Pass?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

So we mark the 2018 Pacific's and add the 2021 Pacific's as Pass?

Yes sir, ….all pass ..again Dave, thank you for your contribution to this important body of work,….this thread is a great example of how everyone worked together to identify, solve, and discuss a direct problem with proven solutions, and useful insights,….the BS has been kept to a bare minimum…..just the facts ma’m,…just the facts please!..

Pat

Okay Pat, all updated on both page 1 & 2 with the 2021 offerings all in bold since they pass the inspection test. I figured it would just be easier to note that they are just easier to list in that way since they are all in bold, and separated from the other Pacific's. I even got all of the Muffin's offerings(still had the email from when Steve got them in, that always helps). That list of Mike's is huge, I even forget how many I have. First things first though, my K4's are older and will be the next batch of fixes that go out to be fixed.

About contributing, I only did a small part. I think that Rick pointing out the K4 flaw several times over the years along with those that sent in their locomotives to you to start the wheels spinning on the fix that started this topic is the real meat and potatoes. As I told my two coworkers today(both ladies), "I did nothing, you all did all the work. I just pointed out a few things." Really that is the truth. They did a great portion of the work, and I just went along and did my part. As always, I am happy to help where I can, whatever it is that I am able to do.

I hope that we get more information on some of the missing engines, which I wager will come about eventually, and maybe even sooner than what we know. I think that it is a great things that we can say with a great relief that the 2018 & 2021 Pacific's pass the test. I know I had told my buddy Jimmy that I was sending NYC #3330 off to you and was worried that my B&O would be making the trip as well. Not worried that it wouldn't get the great care that it would get at the Harmon Shops, more worried that it would be another number of engines needing to get fixed. When I get my 2020 Southern 4501(2131370), that will be making the trip down to see you to see if anything had changed to that gearbox(which we most certainly doubt).

I want to thank Pat, Rick, and all those that ripped open their engines to show us the guts of what was inside. I definitely would be making a mess if I opened(tried) one up. I would be sending it out for all repairs of missing wires, smashed boards, or whatever else my fingers bumped into.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

So we mark the 2018 Pacific's and add the 2021 Pacific's as Pass?

And once Pat has an opportunity to open up his 2012 Pacific hopefully we’ll be able to add the 2012 Pacifics to the ‘Pass’ list too.  🤞

@PH1975 posted:

And once Pat has an opportunity to open up his 2012 Pacific hopefully we’ll be able to add the 2012 Pacifics to the ‘Pass’ list too.  🤞

Yeah, if it is okay. Like Pat has said a few times here, just need to see what everything looks like on the inside. I had thought of one of the Mike's posted that we were in the clear, after the grease was cleared out of the way, that killed that one. See what happens when one comes through.

I would wager that any conventional offerings would be the same as the regular Legacy offerings since the only thing that would be different would be the electronics. Of course though, who can say for sure as I don't know if anything would be changed at all.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Okay Pat, all updated on both page 1 & 2 with the 2021 offerings all in bold since they pass the inspection test. I figured it would just be easier to note that they are just easier to list in that way since they are all in bold, and separated from the other Pacific's. I even got all of the Muffin's offerings(still had the email from when Steve got them in, that always helps). That list of Mike's is huge, I even forget how many I have. First things first though, my K4's are older and will be the next batch of fixes that go out to be fixed.

About contributing, I only did a small part. I think that Rick pointing out the K4 flaw several times over the years along with those that sent in their locomotives to you to start the wheels spinning on the fix that started this topic is the real meat and potatoes. As I told my two coworkers today(both ladies), "I did nothing, you all did all the work. I just pointed out a few things." Really that is the truth. They did a great portion of the work, and I just went along and did my part. As always, I am happy to help where I can, whatever it is that I am able to do.

I hope that we get more information on some of the missing engines, which I wager will come about eventually, and maybe even sooner than what we know. I think that it is a great things that we can say with a great relief that the 2018 & 2021 Pacific's pass the test. I know I had told my buddy Jimmy that I was sending NYC #3330 off to you and was worried that my B&O would be making the trip as well. Not worried that it wouldn't get the great care that it would get at the Harmon Shops, more worried that it would be another number of engines needing to get fixed. When I get my 2020 Southern 4501(2131370), that will be making the trip down to see you to see if anything had changed to that gearbox(which we most certainly doubt).

I want to thank Pat, Rick, and all those that ripped open their engines to show us the guts of what was inside. I definitely would be making a mess if I opened(tried) one up. I would be sending it out for all repairs of missing wires, smashed boards, or whatever else my fingers bumped into.

Yes!…agreed, ….it was Rick O that brought this problem first to lime light,…so a big thanks to him as well ……it’s all the valuable insight and thought that’s made this thread the body of work that it is,….we’ve done a good job of keeping the BS out, and the facts clear…….we’re not looking to bash any mfr. on this thread, it’s strictly used to identify an issue, develop the fix, implement that fix, and make note of it for the rest of the readers to use as valuable information should they purchase one, or they have one and it fails, and they’ll know it’s not the end of the world….

Pat

Pat, do you have any of the older Pacific's on the list or not yet?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Pat, do you have any of the older Pacific's on the list or not yet?

The only Pacifics that would have this issue are PRR K4s. The other Lionel Pacifics use the USRA chassis, which has the motor in the firebox connected to the worm/gearbox with a shaft.

Remember the note on page 1:

Large motor in firebox (rear) with a separate worm shaft = fine.

Small 385 motor in the smokebox = suspect

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Pat, do you have any of the older Pacific's on the list or not yet?

@Lou1985 posted:

The only Pacifics that would have this issue are PRR K4s. The other Lionel Pacifics use the USRA chassis, which has the motor in the firebox connected to the worm/gearbox with a shaft.

Remember the note on page 1:

Large motor in firebox (rear) with a separate worm shaft = fine.

Small 385 motor in the smokebox = suspect

Lou is correct, …but for the record, I just opened my 2012 to GUARANTEE we don’t have an issue, …..Dave, would you do the honors?….ALL Legacy Pacifics are now on the pass list …..so that puts all the legacy Pacifics to bed….

Pat

To add on the Lionel Legacy Southern Pacific A-6 Atlantic has a forward facing 385 motor but uses a single worm wheel in the gearbox.

The Legacy Harriman 2-8-0 uses a 385 in the firebox with a pressed on worm, however is uses the multi gear gearbox. I haven't had one open to check if it has a spacer, but those who are concerned about it probably should.

@harmonyards posted:

Lou is correct, …but for the record, I just opened my 2012 to GUARANTEE we don’t have an issue, …..Dave, would you do the honors?….ALL Legacy Pacifics are now on the pass list …..so that puts all the legacy Pacifics to bed….

Pat

I'll get that done as soon as I get settled in at home. Hoping it doesn't rain, I want to cook up a nice steak on the grill too.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I'll get that done as soon as I get settled in at home. Hoping it doesn't rain, I want to cook up a nice steak on the grill too.

What time is supper?…😁

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

The only Pacifics that would have this issue are PRR K4s. The other Lionel Pacifics use the USRA chassis, which has the motor in the firebox connected to the worm/gearbox with a shaft.

Remember the note on page 1:

Large motor in firebox (rear) with a separate worm shaft = fine.

Small 385 motor in the smokebox = suspect

@harmonyards posted:

Lou is correct, …but for the record, I just opened my 2012 to GUARANTEE we don’t have an issue, …..Dave, would you do the honors?….ALL Legacy Pacifics are now on the pass list …..so that puts all the legacy Pacifics to bed….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

What time is supper?…😁

Pat

Updated. I put this at the top of the Pacific's list(thanks Lou1985) "USRA Chassis different from K4 design motor in Firebox connected to worm/gearbox with shaft"

I usually start up the grill around 7:45 or a bit earlier depending on how quick I am moving with what else I am doing. Usually have salad before eating, and tend to trend about 8:15-8:30, though some nights just before 9 I am actually eating the main course. I would prefer to be eating by at least 8, but never ever seem to get to do that for some reason. Maybe on Easter I can get the train to come into the station around 5 or so in the mid to late afternoon, haha.

@Lou1985 posted:

The Legacy Harriman 2-8-0 uses a 385 in the firebox with a pressed on worm, however is uses the multi gear gearbox. I haven't had one open to check if it has a spacer, but those who are concerned about it probably should.

If they’re using the same chassis as the H10, they’d probably be suspect as well.

The only other model I imagine is using the smaller 385 motor is the recent LEGACY 4-6-6T tank engines, also derived from K-Line tooling, but please correct me if wrong.

I’m feeling more confident as of writing of the operating condition of the recent GS-series and the upcoming 2-10-0 Decapod, at least provided they have the spacers like on the Pacifics and Berkshires.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

If they’re using the same chassis as the H10, they’d probably be suspect as well.

The only other model I imagine is using the smaller 385 motor is the recent LEGACY 4-6-6T tank engines, also derived from K-Line tooling, but please correct me if wrong.

I’m feeling more confident as of writing of the operating condition of the recent GS-series and the upcoming 2-10-0 Decapod, at least provided they have the spacers like on the Pacifics and Berkshires.

We need to see inside a Legacy tank engine, …..I’d suspect the GS series will be fine, given most of the large steamers have a divorced motor……the decapod we’ll need to see inside one of those as well,….but again, on this thread, for the purposes of FACTUAL reporting, they’re all guilty until proven innocent, …….the last thing we want on this vast large body of work is a mistake in our findings,……so we can toss around terms like probably, and most likely, but until they’re on the list, consider them “ wanted dead or alive”…..😁

Pat

There are a good number of tank engines that are out there, I don't have one though. I don't know if GRJ has one or not. Perhaps someone will see the questions about them and respond after they opened it up.

I’ve had several Mikados come across my plate, …Gray Lackay sent 2 of his, one of his looks like it’s seen much more use then all of the others I’ve already serviced….so this one was prime to see what some fair wear and tear looked like …so rather than just apply the fix to this one, I wanted to go as close to scientific as I could to see exactly what’s happening specifically to the Mike platform,……we all know the K4’s have actually seen in field failures, so I set up a test on the Mikes, being no failures were actually reported,…..what I’ve found is enough to convince me the fix certainly helps the Mikes, although I will report, I do not see any carnage in any of the Mikes. I do see the potential for extreme shifting of the idler gear over time. ……enter gear marking compound. I’m using the compound a little different than I’d normally use it for reading heel to toe, accel, decel, etc,…(car guys know what I mean ) ….I’m using the compound to read the squish out …so before I did anything to Gray’s higher mileage example, I first cleaned it all out, and gooped on the compound, reinstalled the motor, and spun the flywheel by hand back and forth where the compound was the thickest ….hopefully the pics come in order, so I can explain them, but if not, y’all get the idea,……so before the fix, we can clearly see the worm gear riding on the side of the worm wheel (idler gear in this gear box )  now apply the fix, and run the pattern again,…..obviously the fix keeps the gear back on center, and we can see mush out both sides now, indicating to me, we’re riding in the middle ….that constitutes longer life, …no??……so I beckon back to the very early assessments we’ve all concluded on this thread,…will they all fail??……I can’t make that call, …but I’d rather not find out IF they will fail,….the fix removes the variable,….😉

Pat

Glad to see more progress on this, Pat.

Seeing the insides on your bench and these kinds of tests put a much better perspective in solving the problem.

Better that they get fixed before anything scary happens than waiting for the ticking time bomb to go off. Great work again Pat as usual.

Here’s the fix applied to the H10’s ( PRR)…..this particular example had quite a bit of intermediate shaft wander, but had not failed …..the fix will insure the worm wheel will remain centered enough to prevent a premature failure,…..there is no large black bushing to keep the alignment true in this model,…..the gearbox on these H10’s has enough room to allow a complete misalignment of the worm gear and worm wheel if the wander becomes too great,…..there’s a weird double wall gear box design on this frame, so I have to poke a small hole in the outer wall to allow for a locking fastener,…..if y’all are wondering what keeps the bar stock in place, the other end of the stock is cut precisely to fit against the back wall very snug fit, once the screw is locked down ( with red loctite ) the bar stock can not pivot or hinge because of the angle it follows…..so only one screw is necessary……the bar stock with the added half moon bushing is now a permanent member of the gear box, and never needs servicing …..

Pat

Great work Pat. I was wondering when your bench would get some time out in on it as you are always busy with work and other projects. Can't wait to see what else is in the works.

Do all the consolidations have this problem or just the H10's.  Don't remember hearing about anything other the H10 problems.

@NHVRYGray posted:

Do all the consolidations have this problem or just the H10's.  Don't remember hearing about anything other the H10 problems.

Good question. I only have listed the 2018 offerings back on page 1. I think the newest Consolidations are from the MTH tooling but that doesn't mean they aren't going to have the same problem. We'd have to have one get looked at in order to figure that out. Anyone have a different one other than the 2018's listed?

Here’s Thomas’s brand spanking new Mikado before the fix, …..I can’t see where Thomas ran this thing for maybe 30 seconds!…..so this engine is got to be new barely run …….look at the slop!….this gearbox is certainly narrower than the K4’s but good golly, …..in time, this much lateral movement has to put the worm off to the edge of the worm wheel,…..with the fix applied, the gear can’t go past center…….crazy!!….and another thing I’m seeing, ….whatever they’re calling grease, …ain’t much of a grease, heck, my coffee is thicker than this stuff!!….it’s very thin, flings off the gears with ease, and what you see in this video and coming pictures, is all they could spare for Thomas!….sorry buddy, …you get one drop of goo, and that’s it!…..along with the gear box fix, we’ll clear out whatever this stuff is, and add better grease …..I think we can spare it,….😉

Pat

Here’s the fix applied to Thomas’s Mikado, …..note the grease, or actually,  the lack there of!……now with a good dab of grease, and the fix installed, this engine can live a good happy life …..

Pat

My WGH K4 was worse out of the box… That said, the slop is not the problem as we determined, rather it’s the undersized (in diameter) spacer that drills into the intermediate shaft bearing.

But warning people before they buy these is out of bounds!?

I don’t get it.

@rplst8 posted:

My WGH K4 was worse out of the box… That said, the slop is not the problem as we determined, rather it’s the undersized (in diameter) spacer that drills into the intermediate shaft bearing.

But warning people before they buy these is out of bounds!?

I don’t get it.

Who said people couldn’t be warned, or informed?…..did I miss something?

Pat

Pat,

You'd be right to say this is barely run - it's the most recent run that I purchased mine in February of this year (probably more than I should, but I really wanted that no. 4070), and barely ran it more than 2 hours or so when this whole thread became a large thing and sent it out to you for safety since I plan on running this one a lot.

You're right about the grease, though. Stuff they're using now feels more like the viscosity of whipped cream. But I guess it's a good incentive to grease things once you get them now, huh?

Thanks for adding the fix to my Mike, Pat. Looking forward to sending another to you soon...

@harmonyards posted:

Who said people couldn’t be warned, or informed?…..did I miss something?

Pat

I warned Beth a few weeks back when the WGH sets were on deep discount, and I was shouted down.

@harmonyards posted:

Here’s Thomas’s brand spanking new Mikado before the fix, …..I can’t see where Thomas ran this thing for maybe 30 seconds!…..so this engine is got to be new barely run …….look at the slop!….this gearbox is certainly narrower than the K4’s but good golly, …..in time, this much lateral movement has to put the worm off to the edge of the worm wheel,…..with the fix applied, the gear can’t go past center…….crazy!!….and another thing I’m seeing, ….whatever they’re calling grease, …ain’t much of a grease, heck, my coffee is thicker than this stuff!!….it’s very thin, flings off the gears with ease, and what you see in this video and coming pictures, is all they could spare for Thomas!….sorry buddy, …you get one drop of goo, and that’s it!…..along with the gear box fix, we’ll clear out whatever this stuff is, and add better grease …..I think we can spare it,….😉

Pat

Wow Pat, that is bad. Reminds me of one of those old commercials, don't remember what for, but one of the guys says this line when posed a question, "Do a little dance." Wow, that is real bad. I have a bunch of these, and we all know where they will wind up. Graveyard? Wrong! The Harmon Shops for the fix of course. It'll have to wait until Pat gets time and I do as well.

Good to see that Thomas's Mikado will once again ride the rails without having to visit the scrap yard many years too soon.

@rplst8 posted:

I warned Beth a few weeks back when the WGH sets were on deep discount, and I was shouted down.

I do recall that, ……it’s kinda taboo to do that sorta thing on a vendor’s (forum sponsor) thread,…..right or wrong, at least I wouldn’t of replied about this issue on a vendor’s thread….….not that you really did anything wrong, or say it out of context, ….it’s just taboo,……remember our discussion from a short while back, …all a vendor has to do is get one wild hair up their you know where, and boom boom, out goes the lights …..a solution for that would’ve been to contact her off line, and shed the lime light??……

@harmonyards posted:

...a solution for that would’ve been to contact her off line, and shed the lime light??……

Fair.

But I typically prefer transparency.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Wow Pat, that is bad. Reminds me of one of those old commercials, don't remember what for, but one of the guys says this line when posed a question, "Do a little dance." Wow, that is real bad. I have a bunch of these, and we all know where they will wind up. Graveyard? Wrong! The Harmon Shops for the fix of course. It'll have to wait until Pat gets time and I do as well.

Good to see that Thomas's Mikado will once again ride the rails without having to visit the scrap yard many years too soon.

Yeah, …that one as new as it is, kinda shocked me too Dave …..also, a big thank you to you for helping keep the lists straight, and your assistance on this thread…it’s a long thread, with a lot very useful information, and clarity …..we’ve ( you too) have done a really good job at keeping the riff raff out, and the information handy, and easy to find/digest …..we have no cheese to offer with the whine …..😁

Pat