It is great to see Pat(and other notable figures here) are able to help figure out what is cooking inside some of these engines. We are definitely hoping that future engines whatever they may be, don't have a hidden hiccups there. If there are any, they'll get sorted out with a little help from the fellows here on the forum. 👍
@harmonyards posted:There’s no doubt that new L1’s can certainly be turned in to Lionel for warranty repair, but, when the warranty runs out, we know there’s hope for these when that time comes..…..a year can go by so fast!!
Pat
Pat, I think this comment says a lot to answer my confusion on this trouble with new steam engines. I was just bamboozled with the idea that so many brand spanking new engines costing $1000, $1500, and more would have such basic issues that seem to be a no brainer to correct??? 
All of my steam engines were purchased used, as the one you have in your shop right now. New Legacy steam engines are beyond my hobby budget, but I'm not complaining. There are plenty of great engines on the used market. I do occasionally buy a new diesel, but am at the point where I sell something when I buy something else.
Thank you, Pat and everyone for educatin' this old hillbilly on this topic. Thank you Dave for being a Guinea pig of sorts! I wish I lived closer to see Pat's reworks in action in person. 
Years ago we always talked about a break in period. Do we need to consider that once again with some of these engines?
@romiller49 posted:Years ago we always talked about a break in period. Do we need to consider that once again with some of these engines?
Good question, Rod!! In the last year plus, I purchased two new MTH diesels. After the recommended lube and inspection, I ran them for a break-in period.
@romiller49 posted:Years ago we always talked about a break in period. Do we need to consider that once again with some of these engines?
Good question, ……in an earlier reply I gave my recommendations on how to handle this particular locomotive, but I’ll lay it out again, …..
1. unbox the engine and immediately test, if reverse is jerky, and or has gear engagement issues, stop and either fix it, or return it.
2. if it runs ok both forward and reverse, proceed with a pre trip service. Lube and grease everything that moves, and be generous with the grease into the gear box via the grease port screw under the chassis. Rotating the wheels a couple revolutions by hand will aid in dispersing the grease.
3. do a thorough break in run, and check your results. If the engine is noticeably quieter, you’re on the right path, and no further action is required…..
( I’m sure my buddy Lou is gonna swear this sounds like a FOMOCO TSB ….beings I wrote dozens & dozens of them! )
Pat
If you heard a loud sigh of relief, that may have been me. Got a chance to run my 1343 a bit more… forward, reverse, with and without several cars, straight and through some O-72 Fastrack switches. No jerking, no loud unusual grinding noise or popping - thanks Pat for posting the before/after running videos so I know what to listen for!!! I still need to lube the gears - again, thanks Pat for explaining how I do that (I really am a bit of a techno-peasant!!!). I had to hit Home Depot over the weekend to pick up a number of things, so I grabbed a container of Red & Tacky and, based on a recommendation from @RickO, I also got a tube of white Lithium Grease. Somehow, due to the size of the hole, I think the tube may make application simpler. Thanks all!!!
@Apples55 posted:If you heard a loud sigh of relief, that may have been me. Got a chance to run my 1343 a bit more… forward, reverse, with and without several cars, straight and through some O-72 Fastrack switches. No jerking, no loud unusual grinding noise or popping - thanks Pat for posting the before/after running videos so I know what to listen for!!! I still need to lube the gears - again, thanks Pat for explaining how I do that (I really am a bit of a techno-peasant!!!). I had to hit Home Depot over the weekend to pick up a number of things, so I grabbed a container of Red & Tacky and, based on a recommendation from @RickO, I also got a tube of white Lithium Grease. Somehow, due to the size of the hole, I think the tube may make application simpler. Thanks all!!!
Good deal Paul, to keep the field reports coming in, when you get a chance, add some grease, and run it for a while and report back how it’s running, ……especially note if you had any gear related noises, and after you’ve greased it, did you notice any improvements……
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Good question, ……in an earlier reply I gave my recommendations on how to handle this particular locomotive, but I’ll lay it out again, ….
2. if it runs ok both forward and reverse, proceed with a pre trip service. Lube and grease everything that moves, and be generous with the grease into the gear box via the grease port screw under the chassis. Rotating the wheels a couple revolutions by hand will aid in dispersing the grease
Pat let me start off by saying I enjoy your threads and advice. I run prewar and postwar only. Quick question I have is there any concerns with grease compatibility with the sparse Lionel grease and the grease of choice for the owner such as Red n Tacky or white lithium grease?
@Rich Wiemann posted:Pat let me start off by saying I enjoy your threads and advice. I run prewar and postwar only. Quick question I have is there any concerns with grease compatibility with the sparse Lionel grease and the grease of choice for the owner such as Red n Tacky or white lithium grease?
Rich, on every gear box repair I’ve done, I’ve always cleaned out all grease. Same is the case on Dave’s L1. Given the sparseness of the amount used, and the fact that the grease used at the factory is kinda like the consistency, color, & texture of straight petroleum jelly, I’d say the likelihood of a compatibility issue is very low. Although I’m not a fan of Red-n-nasty, a lot of folks swear by it. It’s not so much the brand of grease you use, it’s the fact that it’s in there, and you’re not grinding something to death…..I don’t think compatibility would really be an issue given the nature of the usage in our hobby,…..it’s just the idea that the gears have some sort of lubricant to squish against….
Pat
Pat, what grease do you use?
@Casper posted:Pat, what grease do you use?
Carquest’s house brand disc brake wheel bearing grease # 814-16 …..I like the viscosity of it, and with locomotives that have thousands of logged hours, it’s never let me down.
For the record, and so we don’t go down the lubricants rabbit hole, use the greases & oils that satisfy you. As I’ve said before, it’s not really a matter of brand, it’s a matter of making sure something is in there,……😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Carquest’s house brand disc brake wheel bearing grease # 814-16 …..I like the viscosity of it, and with locomotives that have thousands of logged hours, it’s never let me down.
For the record, and so we don’t go down the lubricants rabbit hole, use the greases & oils that satisfy you. As I’ve said before, it’s not really a matter of brand, it’s a matter of making sure something is in there,……😉
Pat
This is extremely helpful for those of us who don't know. My work revolves entirely around my company laptop, so I hardly know the difference between motor oil and bacon grease 
But honestly, I cannot recall the last time I greased an engine or lubricated the rods/axles. I'll look for that brand or something similar and pick it up next time I'm by an autoparts store, I'll remember to use it when I get the layout built. Thanks again for throwing that tidbit out there, super helpful!
Like my late Uncle Eddie used to say about cars, "did you get all the grease fittings?" This was with my first car. He made me count each one I greased as he knew how many there were.
To put on further what Pat and other have said, if your engine has been sitting a while whether in storage or on the shelf, heck yeah get some lube on it, in it, and so forth. You definitely don't want to hear a lot of excess noise in the gearbox or have dry linkage. Too often seeing stuff on eBay, you see comments like, "shows signs of wear" about linkage sometimes.
😈
Well my turn, I guess. Thanks to Pat for quelling my anxiety lol!
Ro wasn't very receptive with regards to a return. In fairness to them, I get it. Especially with the issues Lionel has been having lately.
I finally got the chance to take my 4030 out of the box and I proceeded to lube the axle bushings and put some conductive oil on the pickup rollers. My usual preoperating procedure.
Since the gears are back drivable. I rotated the gears by hand. I forget in which direction, but there was a bit of a snag. The locomotive was on its side so it's possible the eccentric crank may have caught the main rod, not sure.
I rotated the opposite direction and everything freed up. There's no question, the gears feel dry, bit of growl.
On the layout it ran o.k. forward and back, some minor gear noise, not quite as loud as the test subject in this thread. Noise was comparable to my 0-6-0 out of the box.
There was also a bit of a hitch in the giddyup in reverse. However, this is something I've seen a few newer releases. So with no stalling, I removed it from the layout and lubed the "stuff" out of the gearbox.
(I started with 2&1/2 ml of grease recommended by Pat off the bat and added another 1 ml halfway through the break in.)
Then I put it back on the layout and went with my "usual" break in procedure. Running light, I ran it 15 or 20 minutes in forward and 15 or 20 minutes in reverse, starting at a slower speed and gradually increasing every several laps.
The locomotive runs smoother the longer it runs ,and the gearbox is getting quieter as well, the reverse hitch is gone.
It's nice to see there's minimal ,if any secondary gearshaft shift. Thanks to the spacer Pat discovered.
I tried stopping it in reverse with my hand to see if there would be an issue, none occurred, the engine spun the tires on the rail.
While I'm sure Pats shim is the ideal fix, the break in is "good enough " for me. I hate shipping engines due to the damage risk, and I don't have enough faith in Lionel service to have them fix it. If the gears were worse, I'd rather pay Pat to do it right.
Either way, my bottom line, is also in line with Pat . IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT YOU LUBE THE GEARBOX BEFORE ANY SERIOUS RUNNING.
Outside of that, the green is a bit light. How light ,depends on the lighting as others have mentioned. From the top it looks lighter than my h10, from the side it looks nearly the proper color. Its definitley lighter than my m1b from 2007.
The graphite on the smokebox is finally on the money after being wrong for 10 or 12 years. The black pilot is a non issue on the track and I was told that was accurate anyway, so, really a non issue. It smokes like crazy,(just like the Mth version) almost too much on low, hope there's not an electrical issue there lol!
The details carried over from Mth look good, i.e. tender chains , curtains etc. It's nice to see the ash pan glow in this model. The "K line" tooled Mike's from Lionel never have this feature.
This is the closest drawbar coupling of any steam locomotive I own.
Now, I'm just patiently waiting a year to paint the driver tires and axle centers black. So it looks less like a "toy" and more like a "model".
@RickO posted:Well my turn, I guess. Thanks to Pat for quelling my anxiety lol!
Ro wasn't very receptive with regards to a return. In fairness to them, I get it. Especially with the issues Lionel has been having lately.
I finally got the chance to take my 4030 out of the box and I proceeded to lube the axle bushings and put some conductive oil on the pickup rollers. My usual preoperating procedure.
Since the gears are back drivable. I rotated the gears by hand. I forget in which direction, but there was a bit of a snag. The locomotive was on its side so it's possible the eccentric crank may have caught the main rod, not sure.
I rotated the opposite direction and everything freed up. There's no question, the gears feel dry, bit of growl.
On the layout it ran o.k. forward and back, some minor gear noise, not quite as loud as the test subject in this thread. Noise was comparable to my 0-6-0 out of the box.
There was also a bit of a hitch in the giddyup in reverse. However, this is something I've seen a few newer releases. So with no stalling, I removed it from the layout and lubed the "stuff" out of the gearbox.
(I started with 2&1/2 ml of grease recommended by Pat off the bat and added another 1 ml halfway through the break in.)
Then I put it back on the layout and went with my "usual" break in procedure. Running light, I ran it 15 or 20 minutes in forward and 15 or 20 minutes in reverse, starting at a slower speed and gradually increasing every several laps.
The locomotive runs smoother the longer it runs ,and the gearbox is getting quieter as well, the reverse hitch is gone.
It's nice to see there's minimal ,if any secondary gearshaft shift. Thanks to the spacer Pat discovered.
I tried stopping it in reverse with my hand to see if there would be an issue, none occurred, the engine spun the tires on the rail.
While I'm sure Pats shim is the ideal fix, the break in is "good enough " for me. I hate shipping engines due to the damage risk, and I don't have enough faith in Lionel service to have them fix it. If the gears were worse, I'd rather pay Pat to do it right.
Either way, my bottom line, is also in line with Pat . IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE THAT YOU LUBE THE GEARBOX BEFORE ANY SERIOUS RUNNING.
Outside of that, the green is a bit light. How light ,depends on the lighting as others have mentioned. From the top it looks lighter than my h10, from the side it looks nearly the proper color. Its definitley lighter than my m1b from 2007.
The graphite on the smokebox is finally on the money after being wrong for 10 or 12 years. The black pilot is a non issue on the track and I was told that was accurate anyway, so, really a non issue. It smokes like crazy,(just like the Mth version) almost too much on low, hope there's not an electrical issue there lol!
The details carried over from Mth look good, i.e. tender chains , curtains etc. It's nice to see the ash pan glow in this model. The "K line" tooled Mike's from Lionel never have this feature.
Now, I'm just patiently waiting a year to paint the driver tires and axle centers black. So it looks less like a "toy" and more like a "model".
That’s great news Rick, and you’ve proven in the field, if they’re not hanging up in reverse, grease the crap out of them, and break them in!!….no further actions required….I suspect yours will not require any gear box re-shim, especially since yours worked as advertised in reverse. It seems reverse is the end all say all, if it locks up in reverse, THEN there’s an issue,…..I believe Ryan reported similar results as you,….noisy out the box, greased it, ran it, noise lessened……that’s ideally what we’d like to see …..another for the record, it is a shame Lionel doesn’t identify the validity of our findings, and at the very minimum, offer up a Technical Service Bulletin ( TSB ) …maybe if we start doing them for them, they’ll see the light,……😉
Pat
I finally had a chance to test mine today. Concerned because of all the input here. Put it on the track, went in reverse first and clicking. Looked closely and discovered the noise was from the wheels going over the joints on my less than ideal track work. This thing is amazingly quiet. Very happy with initial experience.
Question, Harmonyards, do you have to take the boilers off most of these newer steamers, the L1 Mikado, the 2-8-0 Consolidation steamers, to get to the gear box? These steamers have the motor near the smoke stack, not in the back near the cab, right. Thank you, I’m just wondering…
This is a very informative topic. Happy Railroading Everyone
@leapinlarry posted:Question, Harmonyards, do you have to take the boilers off most of these newer steamers, the L1 Mikado, the 2-8-0 Consolidation steamers, to get to the gear box? These steamers have the motor near the smoke stack, not in the back near the cab, right. Thank you, I’m just wondering…
This is a very informative topic. Happy Railroading Everyone
Larry, yes,….the boiler has to come off in order to access the motor mount screws…
Pat
@RickO posted:Your much more patient than I. This L1 would have been #4 for me with this poorly designed gearbox, but I've had enough. Add to that the too light green and the black pilot, pure laziness.
Hopefully the I1 decapod will turn out better as maybe Lionel won't have a generic chassis to put underneath it. After that, no more new stuff for me.
Meanwhile so called "defunct" MTH is cranking out quality locomotives with fabulous "correct" paint jobs, go figure.
Carry on Pat, your a huge asset to this forum as well as the hobby! I'm gonna go run some trusty TMCC steamers and cool off.
I hate to rain on people’s parade when it comes to paint, but hear it goes. In railroading the color of paint for engines/rolling stock was very subjective to the following: location of the paint shop/paint jobber involved/the paint crew themselves. My biggest pet pet in when manufacturers build PC engines they rarely get the paint correct, it’s not black but Brunswick green as per PC management. Yet when the engines came out of shops all over the system the color was never the same, so paint color is all relative.
Does anyones L1 have a slight lurch when stopping in reverse without a train behind it? Something I just noticed happening with mine
I actually have seen Tom's L1, AAMOF it's sitting my track behind me. It certainly has some sort of odd little problem with the gears. It has a little lurch as it stops in reverse. In addition, once I got it to lock up tight by holding it and putting more force on it in reverse. It was moving back with a load and then just stopped with the cab light flashing. There was a noticeable click of the gears pushing it forward to unlock whatever was locked up.
Here's a short video of the lurch. This happens anytime you stop in reverse. Forward doesn't seem to have an issue.
Attachments
Pat, I got it to lock up a couple times by holding it back and putting more force on the gears, so back in the box it goes for a trip to Lionel. When it locks up, you can push it forward and unlock it, but as you say, that's probably only going to work for a few times!
I got my 1369 after it made one trip to Lionel for addressing the lockup issue but it still persists. In fact both of my L1s still lock the gears if they are stalled running in reverse. They don’t lock up if stalled rolling forward. I dinked around with the 1369 on the bench and found that there is a pretty significant amount of thrust being put on the motor in reverse and I think that is the root cause. Shimming won’t do much other than change the depth of gear mesh of the worm. From what I’ve seen it looks like Lionel attempted to shim the motor mount.
I may get back into the 1369 soon but I am trying to finish another project. I thought about slotting the mount to adjust for backlash. I have R/As for both to go back but at this point I won’t even bother.
One other thing - the pickup roller arms are very soft and the mounts for them allow them to twist about the vertical axis. This combo of freedom and memory can cause them to get hung up backing though my switches and causing the gearbox to lock. I actually printed better mounts but that doesn’t help with the soft roller arms.
I thought about slotting the mount to adjust for backlash.
this is exactly what has to be done along with figuring a correct shim or stack of shims…there’s just way too many inconsistencies in the models that went across the bench to nail down a one size fits all remedy,….just like the Legacy K4’s ….the shims for the lateral shaft slop ranged from .010~.040…….with some uglier than that ….it’s kinda like toss the theories out the window, and just dive in for a solution….
Pat
From what I remember the motor gets pulled into the gearbox in reverse. The gearbox had no lateral slop so it wasn’t a misalignment issue.
@Norm Charbonneau posted:From what I remember the motor gets pulled into the gearbox in reverse. The gearbox had no lateral slop so it wasn’t a misalignment issue.
Yeah, ….I got my directions mixed up, …it does pull it in during reverse……I had some that would exhibit the jump in forward,….
Pat
What must be happening in reverse then is the worm on the motor is being pulled in to where the gear is shallow further back close to the blind spot…
Pat
So the motor shaft needs a throwout bearing?
Seriously… I was considering a Pennsylvania M1 and maybe even an I1, but I’m really doubtful at this point.
Tom's is in the box with a Lionel label on it, bye...bye...
Thanks @gunrunnerjohn. I also have an I1 on order too. Hopefully they don't lionelize them and have all these issues.
The only thing I have on order is the Strasburg #90, I sure hope they don't cheap out on that drivetrain for the money they're getting!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The only thing I have on order is the Strasburg #90, I sure hope they don't cheap out on that drivetrain for the money they're getting!
Well, it doesn't get more expensive than the VL bigboy, and, as we now know. They left out the $6 sound chamber in the loco.
I Have an I1 on order. We may have to start a new " issue" thread for that ,in just a few more weeks.😕
@rplst8 posted:So the motor shaft needs a throwout bearing?
Seriously… I was considering a Pennsylvania M1 and maybe even an I1, but I’m really doubtful at this point.
Ryan, the M1 is a pretty big locomotive, ….back in the TMCC days, it shared the chassis with the Mohawk, which they already had the large motor in the firebox, and a better gear box design, …I’d be willing to bet they’d do the same again with the M1, …..the basic frame already exists in Legacy format,…..I wouldn’t sweat the M1 buddy!!
Pat
I do sort of wonder how the I1's will fare? Are they a whole different design from bottom to top of similar to the L1's?
I have read all of the previous posts about the L1. So I have a question to ask of the owners of this engine. Given all the issues with this engine. Would you buy one again?
I'm asking because I’m thinking about buying one as a Christmas/birthday present to my self. And because, along with my K4, it’s the largest big steam I can run on my layout.
Thanks,
David
@ncdave posted:I have read all of the previous posts about the L1. So I have a question to ask of the owners of this engine. Given all the issues with this engine. Would you buy one again?
After reading this thread and seeing Tom's broken one in person, my answer would be no. I much prefer to buy used stuff as I typically don't have to do that much to beat them into submission, and I have a lot of money in my pocket left over.
Case in point, I picked up this M1a for $500, it was tip-top out of the box. I added the Chuff-Generator to give it 4-chuffs/rev and the Super-Chuffer II to give it full chuffing smoke as well as enhanced LED lighting features. I could have paid twice as much or more, but why? These models are proven reliable runners after years of being on the market, contrast that with the mechanical experiments for some of the new models! Anyone remember the Mogul? 
I agree with John. Getting the Dreyfuss was one of my last main goals in model railroading. Now I'll just sit back and let the catalogs go by and focus on other things like having Pat create Hudsons from older versions at a much cheaper cost overall.
@ncdave posted:I have read all of the previous posts about the L1. So I have a question to ask of the owners of this engine. Given all the issues with this engine. Would you buy one again?
I'm asking because I’m thinking about buying one as a Christmas/birthday present to my self. And because, along with my K4, it’s the largest big steam I can run on my layout.
Thanks,David
No. Same goes for the Legacy K4s. Lionel should be offering refunds on these engines. Either partial ones to cover a fix by Pat or a full one to take them off our hands.
@ncdave posted:I have read all of the previous posts about the L1. So I have a question to ask of the owners of this engine. Given all the issues with this engine. Would you buy one again?
I'm asking because I’m thinking about buying one as a Christmas/birthday present to my self. And because, along with my K4, it’s the largest big steam I can run on my layout.
Thanks,David
I purchased the Santa Fe version of this locomotive. Other than the dry gearbox, there has been absolutely no problems with the locomotive. At $800 for a beautiful locomotive and brass tender, yes, I would buy again.
