Lionel Legacy L1 Mikado …Tales From Harmon Shops

@harmonyards posted:

This would be my recommended course of actions on these engines, ….ONLY if you folks DONT want to return them back for either warranty repair, or refund……remember, if you open it, and mess around in there, you own it!!…..so only go in if you feel comfortable, and really plan on keeping the locomotive simply because you love it,…..

1. Test run a short distance straight out of the box, sounds off, in command mode if possible. Observe forward & reverse operation, both running light, and a tug of cars, running through a few speed steps. Watch for jerking or stuttering more prevalent in reverse. If no jerkiness, or stuttering is observed, and noise is LOW, then apply grease to the gear box as mentioned about 1/2 teaspoon ( it’s a pretty big gear box ) and do a thorough lube and grease job, retest, and observe results.

2. if you found jerking, or stuttering, or an overly noisy engine that drives you nuts, then you’ll need to look at the motor mount and or shim if so equipped. Measuring the stock shim(s)? will establish a good baseline for increasing or decreasing as needed…..I’ve found I had to add, not subtract.

Pat

Thanks Pat.......but you forgot Step 3. "If dissatisfied with the results of Step 2 send the engine to Pat for repairs........."

Good thing you're around Pat...thanks......

@seank941 posted:

How hard is it to disassemble diesels? Whenever I have to disassemble anything, I'm always worried about breaking it. Now that I finally finished laying track on my layout, I can actually run things and I know I need to grease all of my engines.

Sadly, some diesels are down right miserable to just add a dab of grease,…..if you’re unsure, post your engine along with an item # and ask how to go about servicing them. Start a thread if you can’t find your answers via the search engine ….

Pat

@seank941 posted:

How hard is it to disassemble diesels?

As far as Lionel diesels are concerned . There are several different truck designs across the line .

There is  only one style that I would consider relatively easy.

The "easy one" allows access to the gearbox via a removable bottom cover. These have dual rollers on each truck, that are mounted to a rectangular frame that wraps around the base of the truck.

The rest require removing the shell and the the necessary screws attaching the truck to the chassis and motor. Again , there are multiple styles.

@SusieQ posted:

Thanks Pat.......but you forgot Step 3. "If dissatisfied with the results of Step 2 send the engine to Pat for repairs........."

Good thing you're around Pat...thanks......

Well, yeah, there’s that too!…..😉

Pat

Great work as always! @harmonyards I didn't get one of these but I always check the threads when new stuff arrives so I can either enjoy pics/vids of someone else's new loco, or so I can learn when there's an issue like this.

Would this shim trick be useful for my noisy 4-4-2 Atlantic and USRA 0-6-0? I don't have the SKU's handy but they're most recent versions of both locomotives. Both of them seem noisy to me and the 0-6-0 in particular makes a lot of noise. Grease didn't help much. I have had both open for reasons other than gear noise but I can't remember how the motor/gearbox sits. They both run great! Just make a ruckus.

@BillYo414 posted:

Great work as always! @harmonyards I didn't get one of these but I always check the threads when new stuff arrives so I can either enjoy pics/vids of someone else's new loco, or so I can learn when there's an issue like this.

Would this shim trick be useful for my noisy 4-4-2 Atlantic and USRA 0-6-0? I don't have the SKU's handy but they're most recent versions of both locomotives. Both of them seem noisy to me and the 0-6-0 in particular makes a lot of noise. Grease didn't help much. I have had both open for reasons other than gear noise but I can't remember how the motor/gearbox sits. They both run great! Just make a ruckus.

I have not seen an E6 be noisy yet, so I can’t say for certain. …….I’d have to take a look at the individual case to determine why……Same for the 0-6-0 ……I had one 0-6-0 came in that was dropped, and required major surgery, but I don’t recall it making gear noise, so again, I’d have to see the individual case……

Pat

@BillYo414 posted:

Both of them seem noisy to me and the 0-6-0 in particular makes a lot of noise. Grease didn't help much.

Pats the expert here but as far as the 0-6-0. It has a worm turning in ball bearings, creating a "tighter " gearbox.

Add to that the gearing itself is designed for ultra slow speed operation.

When running it at "road speeds" the motor and gears really have to get turning.

Trainworld has demo video of every version. Each one makes a bit of a growl. Mine did out of the box as well , but after some grease and a decent amount of break in time it has quieted down.

Going back to the Legacy j3a hudson. It seems the gearboxes of many recent engines need some break in running to smooth things out.

None of these jammed up in reverse. The L1 seems to be a worst case scenario.

Rick is correct, I remember being pretty impressed with the 0-6-0’s crawling capabilities…..it’s not a road engine, so if you try and run it like a rocket, I’d imagine she would sing, …..

Pat

Glad to see things coming around. We just had the power go out a bit ago only to come on about 10 minutes later when I got my nose reading here. Third time in ten days we've had the power go out. Storms the prior Friday knocked down something, then this past Tuesday, and now this morning after the storms from last night.

@BillYo414 posted:

Would this shim trick be useful for my noisy 4-4-2 Atlantic and USRA 0-6-0? I don't have the SKU's handy but they're most recent versions of both locomotives. Both of them seem noisy to me and the 0-6-0 in particular makes a lot of noise. Grease didn't help much. I have had both open for reasons other than gear noise but I can't remember how the motor/gearbox sits. They both run great! Just make a ruckus.

Bill, I have the latest 4-4-2 Atlantic.  Mine is the SF Black Bonnet from Pat's.  It was a little noisy at first, but with some grease it has gotten considerably quieter as it has broken in.  Hopefully yours is the same!

And that’s really gonna be the case with these Legacy L1’s if they’re not exhibiting issues in reverse, ……grease em’ up and run the dog snot out of them, …..see if they settle down…….I would’ve followed suit with Dave’s if he didn’t have issues in reverse……

Pat

@RickO

Rick, are you going to bother testing yours out or is it back to Charles Ro?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@RickO

Rick, are you going to bother testing yours out or is it back to Charles Ro?

I hope Rick will try it right out of the box, and if it has no issues backing up, then grease it, and let us know how it performs, ……same with Ryan, …..some in-field feedback will be great information for the thread!…..C’mon Rick!!….don’t surrender!!

Dave, yours is back together, and the noise is very minimal now, and reverse works with out any issues, …..I’m very pleased with it, and glad it was just a matter of getting the gear lash set right …..even with the sounds at the lowest level, you’ll hear no gear noises,…..I suspect once you’ve got your permanent road up & running, an hour of break in running at a modest speed step, and all of this will just be a memory!….😉

Pat

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@RickO

Rick, are you going to bother testing yours out or is it back to Charles Ro?

I've gotten in touch with Ro. They are supposed to get back to me.

I think they are tired of these issues with Lionel products too. Thanks to Pats efforts, this appears a bit less severe of an issue than the k4's. The spacer is in there, now if they could work on the mesh a bit.

Worst case scenario, I've been known to tinker on occasion. Adding a shim might just fit in at the end of my comfort level.

My H10 is still factory original. I picked up a nylon washer to one day add as a spacer for piece of mind. Not as good as Pats fix, but I think it will be adequate for the short trains I run on the home layout.

My heavy Mike has this gearbox but doesn't show the kind secondary gearshift shift that the h10 has. The heavy Mike is whisper quite, BUT it also has more run time being older, of course.

I'm hoping the I1s have a better gearbox. I don't believe Lionel has a 5 axle chassis that would work so hopefully they will have to modify the MTH.

The price tag on the decapods is a big jump from the L1. I suppose needing ALL of the locomotive tooling, could be why.

I wish they would hire Pat on in the engineering dept. Although he wouldn't have time to help us fix our trains....but we wouldn't need to.😏

In the meantime Pat..... just keep pouring the lemonade. It's summer after all.👍👍

I hope that the I1's are a different set up. It would stink if there was room to move in the gearbox, that's the last thing we need. I'm glad that I sent my L1 to Pat to give a look at and tinker around with, see what's going on. When Chris had posted his video that started us all scratching our heads as to what may lay inside, and then him not having issues with his second one, again head scratching. As Pat had suggested, it was probably going to be a case by case basis, and sure looks to be that.

Ima go out on a limb, and share my observations why I think they modded this MTH chassis to suit Lionel’s needs,…..

before they got their hands on MTH’s tools, they already had a an established chassis with the forward facing small motor, ….we’ve seen it used many times now, …..no??………look at the size of that board, and the configuration they used, ….legacy board, IR, sounds in the tender, …….having that motor face forward, opens up vast amounts of real estate in the firebox/ cab area, …..so they stuck to what they know …….MTH’s original design had a gear tower, that was divorced from a sizable motor ….Pittman at first, followed by a knock off, …..it’d be nice if Lionel would confirm or deny my suspicions, but I doubt it …..I certainly hope they just didn’t throw in the towel and jump to their  ( I’ll go ahead and say it! ) crummy gear box, but more than likely since we’ve already committed blasphemy and opened up their conundrum, they’ll remain silent,…..call it ease of manufacturing , call it case of the lazies, call it the electronics technology already exists so we ain’t reinventing the wheel, ……I’d a left the stump puller chassis MTH had already alone, and handed the legacy board back to the electronics people and said “ make it smaller, or stick it someplace else” 😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

……I’d a left the stump puller chassis MTH had already alone, and handed the legacy board back to the electronics people and said “ make it smaller, or stick it someplace else” 😉

Pat

And another variation of Legacy electronics would be born. I agree but I’m getting tired of the multitudes of Lionel boards.

@MartyE posted:

And another variation of Legacy electronics would be born. I agree but I’m getting tired of the multitudes of Lionel boards.

Yep, ….so I guess it’s pick the poison that suits the platform best!….🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Rick - you may want to consider keeping the new Lionel PRR L1s and selling your incorrectly painted Pennsy power.    

While PRR painting and lettering standards evolved over the years - pilots, underframes, drivers, and trucks were consistently specified to be painted black.  The boiler, cab and tender sides were specified to be painted Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE).  Originally PRR steam locomotive cab roofs above the drip strip were painted red, but following the delivery of newer steam power (J1, Q1, Q2, S1, S2, T1 in the 1940's) cab roofs of older Pennsy power (B6s, K4s, L1s, M1, etc.)  began to be painted DGLE when shopped.  By the late 1940's red cab roofs were rarely seen in dated photos/videos.  Adding confusion, DGLE painted cab roofs typically look different from DGLE cab sides as the tar like "roof cement" reflects light differently and retains soot.

@harmonyards posted:

....I’d like to make a suggestion, and ask you to grease yours arbitrarily, and retest, ….but you’ll have to tell us how that works, as again, your layout drowns out with resonation…..if you’re not experiencing any issues in reverse, I wouldn’t open it up yet,….I’d like to know your findings after a proper greasing,……Dave’s had issues in reverse, and quite a bit of noise in forward,….so he was either fixing it, or sending it back…..thanks!!

So I greased my gearbox up and the engineer said “make sure you oil up them side rods!” So I did that too. Here’s a before and after on rollers.

Before grease:

After:

Not exactly a scientific test, but I’d say it noticeably better. In the second video it’s mostly the rollers singing as I increased the throttle.

Note the mic on my phone is pretty sensitive. In the first video you can hear the hum of the transformer which is below and to the right of the bench.

I probably won’t mess with it anymore as it performs well enough. I’ll report back after I put some miles on it. These L1s are worth it for that banshee whistle alone. In really sounds beautiful. Part of me wants to pick up another on in the postwar variation and cancel a preorder I have for a different non-PRR engine.

I would certainly preorder more Lionel steam if I was more confident in the drive trains. Even with that spacer they have, I’m not confident the metals are compatible and won’t end up with the same slop that the K4s have. Hopefully the added grease will go towards longevity.

@Keystoned Ed posted:

Rick - you may want to consider keeping the new Lionel PRR L1s and selling your incorrectly painted Pennsy power.   

While PRR painting and lettering standards evolved over the years - pilots, ......... were consistently specified to be painted black. 

Well now that IS interesting Ed.

I still prefer the DGLE of my early legacy M1, but.... even though those black pilots on the new L1 look off.......

I stand corrected.

@MartyE posted:

I agree but I’m getting tired of the multitudes of Lionel boards.

When theyre throwing the spares in the trash, does it really even matter??😉

@rplst8 posted:

So I greased my gearbox up and the engineer said “make sure you oil up them side rods!” So I did that too. Here’s a before and after on rollers.

Before grease:

After:

Not exactly a scientific test, but I’d say it noticeably better. In the second video it’s mostly the rollers singing as I increased the throttle.

Note the mic on my phone is pretty sensitive. In the first video you can hear the hum of the transformer which is below and to the right of the bench.

I probably won’t mess with it anymore as it performs well enough. I’ll report back after I put some miles on it. These L1s are worth it for that banshee whistle alone. In really sounds beautiful. Part of me wants to pick up another on in the postwar variation and cancel a preorder I have for a different non-PRR engine.

I would certainly preorder more Lionel steam if I was more confident in the drive trains. Even with that spacer they have, I’m not confident the metals are compatible and won’t end up with the same slop that the K4s have. Hopefully the added grease will go towards longevity.

Ryan, sounds like adding some grease did make a noticeable difference, …….any clue how much you added?……I’d say a generous half a teaspoon would be a good place to start?….

Pat

I think your on the mark with that, again, Pat.

Mth recommends .5- 1ml in their gearboxes. I use this as a base line with a baby medicine syringe I use for greasing gearboxes.1 ml isn't much.

1/2 teaspoon comes out to just under 2.5 ml on Google. Sounds about right , given the extra gears.

@harmonyards posted:

Ryan, sounds like adding some grease did make a noticeable difference, …….any clue how much you added?……I’d say a generous half a teaspoon would be a good place to start?….

according to the syringe I used, about 1.5 mL which if my calculations are correct, is around 1/3 tsp. I might go back and add a little more.

@rplst8 posted:

according to the syringe I used, about 1.5 mL which if my calculations are correct, is around 1/3 tsp. I might go back and add a little more.

I’d say so, ….look at the pics I posted of that Olympic sized swimming pool of a gear box,…..I’d bet it hold 1/2 a cup,…..🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat

@harmonyards @jrose609 @RickO Thanks for the wisdom everybody. I agree the 0-6-0 surely doesn't carry much speed. I'll grease up and keep running. Hopefully they'll improve over time. It doesn't bother me that much but I was up for making an improvement if it was possible.

@harmonyards posted:

Ima go out on a limb, and share my observations why I think they modded this MTH chassis to suit Lionel’s needs,…..

before they got their hands on MTH’s tools, they already had a an established chassis with the forward facing small motor, ….we’ve seen it used many times now, …..no??………look at the size of that board, and the configuration they used, ….legacy board, IR, sounds in the tender, …….having that motor face forward, opens up vast amounts of real estate in the firebox/ cab area, …..so they stuck to what they know …….MTH’s original design had a gear tower, that was divorced from a sizable motor ….Pittman at first, followed by a knock off, …..it’d be nice if Lionel would confirm or deny my suspicions, but I doubt it …..I certainly hope they just didn’t throw in the towel and jump to their  ( I’ll go ahead and say it! ) crummy gear box, but more than likely since we’ve already committed blasphemy and opened up their conundrum, they’ll remain silent,…..call it ease of manufacturing , call it case of the lazies, call it the electronics technology already exists so we ain’t reinventing the wheel, ……I’d a left the stump puller chassis MTH had already alone, and handed the legacy board back to the electronics people and said “ make it smaller, or stick it someplace else” 😉

Pat

You're probably correct. Here's the standard MTH USRA Mikado chassis layout. When MTH produced the L1 the chassis was set up identically to the USRA Mikado. Big Pittman in the firebox, gear tower with a separate worm shaft. Rugged and indestructible, but no room for a Legacy board in the locomotive. Lionel would have had to put the Legacy board in the tender and used a tether if they wanted to keep the MTH drive line. Personally I'd take the tether if it meant keeping the MTH drive line.

@Lou1985 posted:

You're probably correct. Here's the standard MTH USRA Mikado chassis layout. When MTH produced the L1 the chassis was set up identically to the USRA Mikado. Big Pittman in the firebox, gear tower with a separate worm shaft. Rugged and indestructible, but no room for a Legacy board in the locomotive. Lionel would have had to put the Legacy board in the tender and used a tether if they wanted to keep the MTH drive line. Personally I'd take the tether if it meant keeping the MTH drive line.

Is that the one that had the dead Mux Lou? …..,very neat and tidy wiring, ….as usual!

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Is that the one that had the dead Mux Lou? …..,very neat and tidy wiring, ….as usual!

Pat

No. That's my USRA I converted to an ATSF 3129 class Mikado. It's got factory PS3 boards and a ball bearing 9234 Pittman.

Guess I’ll have to see what happens when I get my L1s. If they aren’t right I’ll let Lionel deal with them. I was hoping they’d be on my layout by now, weathered, Kadee’d and YouTubed. I bought a pair for doubleheading since Legacy handles it so well and I like the fact that Legacy has 100% usable matched speed steps.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Guess I’ll have to see what happens when I get my L1s. If they aren’t right I’ll let Lionel deal with them. I was hoping they’d be on my layout by now, weathered, Kadee’d and YouTubed. I bought a pair for doubleheading since Legacy handles it so well and I like the fact that Legacy has 100% usable matched speed steps.

If they’re good out the box Norm, grease them and let them eat!….this is looking like isolated incidents …..

Pat

Here’s Dave’s out of the shops, back on the same section of track we recorded the forward noise on straight out of the box,……..listen closely, we’ve eliminated I’d say 90% of all the noise, …..it’s smooth as silk, even in reverse now. Big thanks to Norm on helping resolve this issue, I took his suggestion on critical gear lash on these fixed worm shaft gear boxes, and I ran with the ball for the touchdown,……Dave will be pleased with his new model. One other thing to note, Lionel did a nice job with the lower boiler support rods, …they are separate pieces held on by screws, …..no having to fiddle around trying to fit them in as you lower the boiler for reassembly, …….that’s a nice touch for techs ….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Here’s Dave’s out of the shops, back on the same section of track we recorded the forward noise on straight out of the box,……..listen closely, we’ve eliminated I’d say 90% of all the noise, …..it’s smooth as silk, even in reverse now. Big thanks to Norm on helping resolve this issue, I took his suggestion on critical gear lash on these fixed worm shaft gear boxes, and I ran with the ball for the touchdown,……Dave will be pleased with his new model. One other thing to note, Lionel did a nice job with the lower boiler support rods, …they are separate pieces held on by screws, …..no having to fiddle around trying to fit them in as you lower the boiler for reassembly, …….that’s a nice touch for techs ….

Pat

Fantastic!

and a cameo by the #5272 to boot!

- Mario

So this problem is in every single engine that was just produced of the L1 Mikado?  Or is it possible that one Lionel L1 Mikado may have this problem and another model from this run may not?  

@A.J. posted:

So this problem is in every single engine that was just produced of the L1 Mikado?  Or is it possible that one Lionel L1 Mikado may have this problem and another model from this run may not?  

No, if you’ve been following this thread, and the other thread announcing L1’s are now being delivered, you’ll notice that it’s not every engine, but some failures were reported. Enough to warrant a look around to determine the issue, given the past history of this type of chassis used in previous models.

Pat

Hardly any sound Pat, I can barely hear anything other than just a little tiny turning. With the engine sounds on, that won't even be noticed I would wager. Awesome Job Pat.

Kudos to Pat and everyone else that helped with this investigation. I’m glad there are solutions for those with troublesome L1s.

Another example of how great of a resource this forum is!

There’s no doubt that new L1’s can certainly be turned in to Lionel for warranty repair, but, when the warranty runs out, we know there’s hope for these when that time comes..…..a year can go by so fast!!

Pat

Really appreciate all the work you put in to research this engine.  My son just got his and you really helped with him identifying any possible issues.  No issues found and it’s greased up and ready to go.  Thank you.