Heck I can't see it, but I'm glad that I don't have to. As long as Pat gets his ball pean hammer out, hits the heck out of it, and wala, all works well. Yeah, that is how confident I'm of how Pat is going to fix this engine. Rebuild it from the ground up as it were.
@gunrunnerjohn, John, what do you think the shroud is for? Do you think it is to protect the wiring to prevent what was going on with the Pennsy E6's or something else entirely?
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Heck I can't see it, but I'm glad that I don't have to. As long as Pat gets his ball pean hammer out, hits the heck out of it, and wala, all works well. Yeah, that is how confident I'm of how Pat is going to fix this engine. Rebuild it from the ground up as it were.
@gunrunnerjohn, John, what do you think the shroud is for? Do you think it is to protect the wiring to prevent what was going on with the Pennsy E6's or something else entirely?
The smoke units are right there at the flywheel on this model. As most folks tend to do, too much fluid is eventually gonna drip somewhere…if it gets on the flywheel, it’s sling city, …..that shroud is the first line of defense,….
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:If you look close, the clearance cut for the worm gear is to the right in the picture, that isn't supposed to be centered to leave room for the gear. The spacer is on the right next to the worm gear.
Understood on not being centered in the opening. I’m talking about centered between the motor mount bracket, which presumably has the motor centered on.
The green dot is center.
Testing is still ongoing, but I’ll share some findings as I go along, ….So I’ve dyed the gears, and ran a pattern, although the worm wheel is offset, the worm shaft does make decent contact. It’s a pretty fat worm shaft, and it does make up for some of the offset, ….The next thing I looked at is the clear plastic shim between the gear box and the motor mount. On the test rollers, with all the boards unplugged from the motor I was able to duplicate the issue in reverse with very low voltage DC. Moving in reverse, I was able to observe the jerky motion and every once in a while I could get it to “catch” and stop,….the slightest help on the flywheel and it would move again, …..I don’t think I was even at 100 rpm even,…..so we’re talking oober slow motion……..I tried removing the shim which BTW is a whopping .3 mm thick clear piece of like window plastic, but without the shim, the gears are bottoming out and locking up before I could snug the first screw. As a test, I made a new shim from .5 mm styrene sheet. This was a huge improvement in reverse!!…all the jerkiness went away, there was no noise, and I couldn’t force it into a lock up,…. But, ….forward still has the gear noise…..so still some studying needed,….
Pat
Interesting discussion. Clues, false leads, new discoveries....detective work that reads like a mystery!
Sorry for thinking but I just sort of realized that the best running diecast steam engines are not direct drive. The Pittman (and some Canon) drivetrains we all like have a universal between the motor and the worm. This allows the worm angle the opportunity to be independent of the motor angle. Any angular misalignment between the motor and gearbox doesn’t result in less than ideal gear mesh. The worm is between two ball bearings so the engagement is fixed very securely.
In this setup, the motor angle is the worm angle so it would have to be shimmed for ideal engagement if needed. It might be interesting to compare shims from a couple different engines.
I agree 100% Norm, any time you have a divorced gear box free & independent to move like it wants to is the ticket, …the one thing I’ve always noticed with these fixed worm angle set ups is any and all noise resonates like a SOB, ……sad fact is, this platform from MTH had a compound gear box from the get go, but divorced, …..they might’ve gotten away leaving the platform alone and simply used a 545 in place of the 9432 Pittman ….to be sure it would’ve been fine, ….why they went this route is mind boggling to say the least……
Pat
Drivetrains with separate gearboxes and universal joints aren’t without their gremlins either. I have a couple where the shaft tends to vibrate at certain speeds. I don’t think it can be helped without replacing them with “proper” universals with yokes instead of the cup and fork style that most use.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:@gunrunnerjohn, John, what do you think the shroud is for? Do you think it is to protect the wiring to prevent what was going on with the Pennsy E6's or something else entirely?
I haven't seen this one personally, but the shroud typically has been to keep the flywheel from hitting wiring.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I haven't seen this one personally, but the shroud typically has been to keep the flywheel from hitting wiring.
Pat also believes that it serves another purpose, to keep excess smoke fluid from hitting the flywheel John. That was what he said at the top of this page(2)
Pat has it pictured here, Norm seems to have blown it up a bit a few posts later.
I had planned to pick back up on Dave’s L1 after work today, ( Friday) but my hot water heater made my evening’s arrangements for me,…..we’ll get back to model trains after the plumbing festivities subside….🤮
Pat
Sorry to hear about that Pat.
Here I thought maybe the orange box people sent you a cease and desist letter.😉
So wouldn't it make make sense for the Orange Box People to consult with the Harmon Shops BEFORE putting the first one IN the box???? 🤣🤣
Sorry about the water heater Pat. Hope it just died and didn't flood the house.
Bob
Dang hot water heaters. Well Pat, trains can and will have to wait until the more important stuff gets taken care of.
It didn’t flood the house, thankfully I caught it in time. I had noticed the hot water waned off, and went immediately to take a look, ……that’s when I saw the leak, and noticed the breaker had shut down,…..the pan caught all the leak,…..had we been a away, it could’ve been a mess,…..
the orange box people can send all the letters they want, ……they should give me a medal, certainly not condemnation, ……😉
Pat
That is good you caught it before it made a mess. Seen a bunch of times where people found out the hard way. That ain't no fun.
@harmonyards posted:I had planned to pick back up on Dave’s L1 after work today, ( Friday) but my hot water heater made my evening’s arrangements for me,…..we’ll get back to model trains after the plumbing festivities subside….🤮
Pat
I've had hot water heaters give up before, my current one is in a pan with a drain and a moisture alarm to alert me to the issue. Glad to hear you didn't have any major issues from the incident. 
@harmonyards posted:I had planned to pick back up on Dave’s L1 after work today, ( Friday) but my hot water heater made my evening’s arrangements for me,…..we’ll get back to model trains after the plumbing festivities subside….🤮
Ugh always something huh. Sorry man. I have one that is turning 16 this year and I noticed the pop off valve seeping. This is a sign I think.
@rplst8 posted:Ugh always something huh. Sorry man. I have one that is turning 16 this year and I noticed the pop off valve seeping. This is a sign I think.
16 years is a sign too.........
a big flashing neon one! 
So I see I'm not the only one having to address this issue. These things never happen at an opportune time (if that exists), however I am thankful it's not winter.
Dave
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I've had hot water heaters give up before, my current one is in a pan with a drain and a moisture alarm to alert me to the issue. Glad to hear you didn't have any major issues from the incident.
I don't heat hot water. It comes into the tank cold and then gets heated. 
Water heaters are problematic for sure. I had one a number of years ago (before the current one) that I caught leaking after water was already moving across the floor. Luckily it was Saturday and we were home. The pans can fill up fast, too.
Based on what I've been told, at 16 years old, you're significantly into the "replace ASAP" phase, as RSJB18 noted. The average life expectancy is 8-12 years according to several sources, including Bob Villa.
Seeing that we have completely hijacked Pat's thread discussing the power-train in the new Mikado's....
I'll make one more comment/ suggestion regarding WATER HEATERS (notice the lack of the word hot) 
Tank-less gas or electric heat pump units are much more efficient than a 50-70 gal conventional WH. Add in the elimination of 50 gallons + of water leaking out on the floor and they are a win-win! I plan to switch out my 50 gal conventional soon.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress....
Bob
Thanks to the advice of Mike Reagan, we went tankless hot water this time, and we’re loving it!…..the lovely Ms. Tammy & I did it ourselves, and all went well, …..When I went out to Mike’s place a couple years ago, his guest bathroom is like the Taj Mahal of guest baths, and he showed me his tankless set up. When ours decided last night was the night, we followed suit….
Back to Dave’s L1 now, and probably enough about hot water heaters, ……before the thread goes poof,….
As I mentioned before, the worm shaft engages half of the worm wheel. The worm shaft, ( worm on the motor ) is pretty fat, so the worm shaft rides off the edge of the worm wheel. I believe this to be the source of the noise in Dave’s example,….this new design of intermediate shaft can not move laterally, so I don’t see any issues with premature wear due to that set up. On Dave’s model, and I feel the other models that complained about issues with jerking or jamming in reverse, the problem is the gear lash. As Norm pointed out, these fixed arrangements have a much more crucial gear mesh than other designs, ….To get Dave’s model as best as it can, I played around with the shim/gasket under the motor mount. In Dave’s case, .7 mm gave the best operation, and the least amount of noise……These engines will be another case by case study depending on how badly they perform in reverse, and how much gear train noise they create in motion. I’m not seeing anything to make these engines grenade themselves as we’ve seen on previous models, with similar gear box designs….So basically it boils down to a crucial gear lash. Mitigating noise, or jerky operation will require a hard look at the shim between the gear box and the motor mount……OR the lack their of, if not so equipped……I test ran Dave’s example on my rollers, sitting on my workbench top, which would be noisier than running on the layout,…..I wanted the worst case scenario, so we’ll be pleasantly surprised with the best case…..a video will follow this reply. For gasket materials, I used automotive gasket papers of varying thicknesses to get where I wanted it to be,……I will reassemble Dave’s L1 and test on the layout to verify we’ve at least “ cleaned up” this engine…..again, I’m not seeing these go into self destruct mode as long as the gear mesh is ok on your model, …the tell tale will be in reverse. They do need grease added right out the gate!!!….factor at least half a teaspoon full as a blanket coverage ……
Pat 
Here’s Dave’s L1 on the rollers, on the bench, ….any noise would be amplified by this set up. I’m expecting this to be much, much quieter now, and all the issues in reverse are now gone, ….
Pat
Congrats Dave!
I would have thought they would have put in enough grease at the factory. Am I missing something?????
@Mark Boyce posted:I would have thought they would have put in enough grease at the factory. Am I missing something?????
This was all the grease they could spare to give to Dave, ………😉….the bottom gears Mark, were about bone dry, ….
Pat 
@harmonyards posted:This was all the grease they could spare to give to Dave, ………😉….the bottom gears Mark, were about bone dry, ….
Pat
I see it, but I can’t find the words to nicely say what I think of the neglect
@Mark Boyce posted:I see it, but I can’t find the words to nicely say what I think of the neglect
It's pretty typical, at least with Lionel. I grease every locomotive out of the box.
Diesels are usually worse as they have much smaller gearboxes. Worst part is, diesels don't have a grease screw port to get the grease in so disassembly is a must.
(Playing devils advocate here) At the very least, one might guess it could be to minimize the mess. When assembling 1000 or 2000 locomotives, one fingertip of grease could stain a dozen shells.
The sound is very minimal, and almost not there. Sort of like some of the very old tinplate engines with their set up, except they produce a bit more noise. Overall this does seem to be an improvement from the old K4 issues, but Pat has made if much better indeed.
@Mark Boyce posted:I would have thought they would have put in enough grease at the factory. Am I missing something?????
Yeah Mark, I think on a topic from a few years ago quite a number of people had stated about the grease being light. In some cases, nearly non-existent. Pat has said a few times that any new engines should get some grease popped into them. Not exactly what you would want to be doing, but as some have also said, "get some oil and lube in your engines before running for great performance."
@RickO posted:It's pretty typical, at least with Lionel. I grease every locomotive out of the box.
Diesels are usually worse as they have much smaller gearboxes. Worst part is, diesels don't have a grease screw port to get the grease in so disassembly is a must.
(Playing devils advocate here) At the very least, one might guess it could be to minimize the mess. When assembling 1000 or 2000 locomotives, one fingertip of grease could stain a dozen shells.
And you hit the nail on the head Rick, any new locomotive should get a pre-trip inspection and lube before going into service, …..live by the creed, if it moves, it needs lube,…..a lot of folks over look things on steam locomotives like rod bolts, eccentrics & sleeves, valve motion, levers, links, you name it, …..For this job, I like 75-140 gear oil. I love how that stuff doesn’t evaporate off, it clings like mad, and hangs around where I want it for a long time!!….75-140 in a pin applicator will amaze you guys when used as a tiny drop,…..
Pat
We’ll at least the problem is easily solved. My copy didn’t exhibit any of the bad behaviors. Maybe a tad noisy. Maybe.
I haven’t disassembled mine, but will probably do so to check the amount of grease and whatnot. I wonder if all of them have gaskets with the same thickness. I’ll measure mine and report back.
@rplst8 posted:We’ll at least the problem is easily solved. My copy didn’t exhibit any of the bad behaviors. Maybe a tad noisy. Maybe.
I haven’t disassembled mine, but will probably do so to check the amount of grease and whatnot. I wonder if all of them have gaskets with the same thickness. I’ll measure mine and report back.
I’m glad you chimed in Ryan, I seen you post your videos on the other thread, ..but it’s really hard to hear beings your track is directly on the wood, and the sounds of the rails kinda drown any noises out,….I’d like to make a suggestion, and ask you to grease yours arbitrarily, and retest, ….but you’ll have to tell us how that works, as again, your layout drowns out with resonation…..if you’re not experiencing any issues in reverse, I wouldn’t open it up yet,….I’d like to know your findings after a proper greasing,……Dave’s had issues in reverse, and quite a bit of noise in forward,….so he was either fixing it, or sending it back…..thanks!!
Pat
Pat,
So, beyond the grease, do you feel the shim, of TBD thickness based on trial and error, will be the suggested fix for noisy engines, and/or engines exhibiting some level of jerkiness in movement.
Here’s Dave’s chassis ready to reinstall in the shell,….I like super neat cable management, so I improved on Lionel’s neatness, and wrapped these harnesses into nice bundles, that should keep them neatly in order for a long happy life,…….Also note, I found the motor mount screws to be a tad short for my liking, the holes are generous, so I installed some longer 4-40 screws to prevent future strip outs if servicing is ever needed in the future…..I test ran one more time with straight DC on the motor before finally plugging back in the motor & sensor leads,…..I’m liking what I’m seeing now!!…..so far, mucho bueno!!
Pat
@SusieQ posted:Pat,
So, beyond the grease, do you feel the shim, of TBD thickness based on trial and error, will be the suggested fix for noisy engines, and/or engines exhibiting some level of jerkiness in movement.
I’ll post my recommended course of action below this reply….
Pat
This would be my recommended course of actions on these engines, ….ONLY if you folks DONT want to return them back for either warranty repair, or refund……remember, if you open it, and mess around in there, you own it!!…..so only go in if you feel comfortable, and really plan on keeping the locomotive simply because you love it,…..
1. Test run a short distance straight out of the box, sounds off, in command mode if possible. Observe forward & reverse operation, both running light, and a tug of cars, running through a few speed steps. Watch for jerking or stuttering more prevalent in reverse. If no jerkiness, or stuttering is observed, and noise is LOW, then apply grease to the gear box as mentioned about 1/2 teaspoon ( it’s a pretty big gear box ) and do a thorough lube and grease job, retest, and observe results.
2. if you found jerking, or stuttering, or an overly noisy engine that drives you nuts, then you’ll need to look at the motor mount and or shim if so equipped. Measuring the stock shim(s)? will establish a good baseline for increasing or decreasing as needed…..I’ve found I had to add, not subtract.
Pat
@RickO posted:It's pretty typical, at least with Lionel. I grease every locomotive out of the box.
Diesels are usually worse as they have much smaller gearboxes. Worst part is, diesels don't have a grease screw port to get the grease in so disassembly is a must.
(Playing devils advocate here) At the very least, one might guess it could be to minimize the mess. When assembling 1000 or 2000 locomotives, one fingertip of grease could stain a dozen shells.
How hard is it to disassemble diesels? Whenever I have to disassemble anything, I'm always worried about breaking it. Now that I finally finished laying track on my layout, I can actually run things and I know I need to grease all of my engines.
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
