@Norm Charbonneau posted:I think if Lionel did the Canon drive in this, the price would have been too high for being a less than perfect model with that mismatched tender. Also having a tether and crowding out the nice sound setup they have in the tender would not have made any sense at all.
BTW, now that I can finally start to enjoy these engines I do have to say the sounds are really good. There seems to be a new chip set on the sound board.
I’d agree to that Norm ….
Pat
@Norm Charbonneau posted:I think if Lionel did the Canon drive in this, the price would have been too high for being a less than perfect model with that mismatched tender. Also having a tether and crowding out the nice sound setup they have in the tender would not have made any sense at all.
BTW, now that I can finally start to enjoy these engines I do have to say the sounds are really good. There seems to be a new chip set on the sound board.
Lionel did change the chassis on the K-Line B&A Berkshire to accept a larger motor in the firebox. The change to the gearbox was hardly different than what they did with this L1. They were also able to fit an RCMC in the engine and use the existing shell with virtually no modification.
Pete
Doesn't the multi-thread worm also change the gear ratio? Multiple threads lower the gear ratio, correct?
@Norton posted:Lionel did change the chassis on the K-Line B&A Berkshire to accept a larger motor in the firebox. The change to the gearbox was hardly different than what they did with this L1. They were also able to fit an RCMC in the engine and use the existing shell with virtually no modification.
Pete
Had they done what they did to those berks, we wouldn’t be even having this conversation, …..no??….perhaps they could’ve done what they did with the Berk in the L1’s …..ain’t like it’s that much smaller??…….
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Doesn't the multi-thread worm also change the gear ratio? Multiple threads lower the gear ratio, correct?
Yes it does, the number of starts directly affects gear ratio, ….the more starts, the lower the ratio keeps going,…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Had they done what they did to those berks, we wouldn’t be even having this conversation, …..no??….perhaps they could’ve done what they did with the Berk in the L1’s …..ain’t like it’s that much smaller??…….
Pat
I would guess with the Belpaire firebox even a big motor would fit with room to spare for the RCMC and fan smoke.
Pete
@harmonyards posted:Had they done what they did to those berks, we wouldn’t be even having this conversation, …..no??….perhaps they could’ve done what they did with the Berk in the L1’s …..ain’t like it’s that much smaller??…….
Pat
But those Legacy A1 berks don't have whistle steam, and there was some grumbling because of it.
I'm guessing the forward facing motor frees up space for the whistle steam plumbing. Having said that, the whistle was missing altogether from the K Line as well as the Legacy version. I recall a thread trying to find it on the prototype.
Since there was an " issue" with the K Line tooling used for the original Legacy run. I wonder if the " new" A1 due in the spring will end up with a forward facing motor like everything else.
@harmonyards posted:Yes it does, the number of starts directly affects gear ratio, ….the more starts, the lower the ratio keeps going,…
I ran across this with the Atlantic basket case I was working on that you had a big part in making whole. I found a motor and didn't realize that it was a two-thread worm instead of the stock single-thread. It took a bit to figure out that the 2-chuffs instead of 4-chuffs was because of the wrong worm. The amazing part is the two-thread worm worked perfectly with the existing worm gear, no binding and smooth running.
@RickO posted:But those Legacy A1 berks don't have whistle steam, and there was some grumbling because of it.
I'm guessing the forward facing motor frees up space for the whistle steam plumbing. Having said that, the whistle was missing altogether from the K Line as well as the Legacy version. I recall a thread trying to find it on the prototype.
Since there was an " issue" with the K Line tooling used for the original Legacy run. I wonder if the " new" A1 due in the spring will end up with a forward facing motor like everything else.
I stopped trying to rack my brains around what they’re doing anymore, …..some of it makes sense, but most does not, ….and I think that sums it up,……they COULD do whatever they want, but I guess they have some sort of fixed parameters in a project budget they have to work within……and it’s a just a guess, but the only thing I can think of anymore, is that budget is mighty low,……
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I ran across this with the Atlantic basket case I was working on that you had a big part in making whole. I found a motor and didn't realize that it was a two-thread worm instead of the stock single-thread. It took a bit to figure out that the 2-chuffs instead of 4-chuffs was because of the wrong worm. The amazing part is the two-thread worm worked perfectly with the existing worm gear, no binding and smooth running.
That locomotive tried to kill us both!….I remember that thing!!….then USPS or FedEx fired it out of a cannon,…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:That locomotive tried to kill us both!….I remember that thing!!….then USPS or FedEx fired it out of a cannon,…..
Pat
It took way more effort than I could have ever imagined, but it's a nice running little Atlantic now. However, I won't do something like that again, that was painful! 
@RickO posted:But those Legacy A1 berks don't have whistle steam, and there was some grumbling because of it.
I'm guessing the forward facing motor frees up space for the whistle steam plumbing. Having said that, the whistle was missing altogether from the K Line as well as the Legacy version. I recall a thread trying to find it on the prototype.
Since there was an " issue" with the K Line tooling used for the original Legacy run. I wonder if the " new" A1 due in the spring will end up with a forward facing motor like everything else.
Having just converted a K-Line Berk to a big motor in the firebox using the Legacy Chassis I think they could still add whistle steam if they used a two chamber smoke unit and long pipe. The RCMC saves considerable space vs the R2LC, Motherboard and K-Line Cruise board that K-Line used.
Don’t gasp, the wiring was dressed up after the photo. Legacy chassis with K-Line TMCC boards. Smoke unit in the shell.
Pete
They got whistle steam into the Strasburg #90 with the RCMC in the boiler... 
@Norton posted:Having just converted a K-Line Berk to a big motor in the firebox using the Legacy Chassis I think they could still add whistle steam if they used a two chamber smoke unit and long pipe. The RCMC saves considerable space vs the R2LC, Motherboard and K-Line Cruise board that K-Line used.
Don’t gasp, the wiring was dressed up after the photo. Legacy chassis with K-Line TMCC boards. Smoke unit in the shell.
Pete
It even looks like you used the larger 61mm Pittman and still got it in there. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:They got whistle steam into the Strasburg #90 with the RCMC in the boiler...
It even looks like you used the larger 61mm Pittman and still got it in there.
Its a 56mm John. Motor and driveshaft couplings are almost touching. Don’t think a 61 would fit without carving out the backhead.
Pete
@harmonyards posted:Pete, Lou & myself discussed this engine when I first opened up Dave’s and I could not for the life of me understand why they went the route they did. I wondered why they didn’t leave the bullet proof MTH chassis alone, and redesign the electronics around it, but I guess that big board needs a fair amount of real estate, so they did what they did for that purpose, ….had they left the MTH chassis alone, the board as it sits would have to live in the tender, ……
Pat
Bingo. The MTH chassis has a large motor in the firebox and a universal shaft that connects it to a gear tower. Works fine with MTH's setup of a larger board in the tender and a smaller board in the locomotive, with a tether or "wireless" drawbar. Lionel's board setup of a large motor driver board in the locomotive and a small sound board in the tender wouldn't work with the large motor and gear tower taking up most of the space in the locomotive, so instead of packaging everything in the tender Lionel redesigned the chassis to mimic their K-Line derived Mikado chassis, which is set up the way it is to clear Lionel's large locomotive mounted motor driver board. So basically it was cheaper to re-tool the chassis than redesign the motor driver board to fit the existing chassis.
@Norton posted:Its a 56mm John. Motor and driveshaft couplings are almost touching. Don’t think a 61 would fit without carving out the backhead.
Pete
Looks longer in the picture, I guess I should have looked at one for comparison.
@Lou1985 posted:Bingo. The MTH chassis has a large motor in the firebox and a universal shaft that connects it to a gear tower. Works fine with MTH's setup of a larger board in the tender and a smaller board in the locomotive, with a tether or "wireless" drawbar. Lionel's board setup of a large motor driver board in the locomotive and a small sound board in the tender wouldn't work with the large motor and gear tower taking up most of the space in the locomotive, so instead of packaging everything in the tender Lionel redesigned the chassis to mimic their K-Line derived Mikado chassis, which is set up the way it is to clear Lionel's large locomotive mounted motor driver board. So basically it was cheaper to re-tool the chassis than redesign the motor driver board to fit the existing chassis.
Why not used a BEMC. They’re quite a bit smaller i think.
Wow, this thread has really been very popular, very educational, and it’s a very popular style locomotive. I didn’t order one, but my friend Captain Will did, so I’ll get to see one run on my layout in January 2024…. I’m excited about the A5 - 0-4-0 Legacy steamer around mid-year. Happy Railroading Everyone
@rplst8 posted:Why not used a BEMC. They’re quite a bit smaller i think.
I think Lionel has fully committed to the LCP2 style board.
@rplst8 posted:Why not used a BEMC. They’re quite a bit smaller i think.
I can answer that. The BEMC is NOT compatible with many features of the RCMC or LCP2 & LCP3 boards. Specifically, it won't MU with any of the other Legacy engine types! The low speed steps are not even close to the aforementioned boards. The BEMC doesn't offer near the low speed performance of the other Legacy boards.
Here's an informative short video to show the obvious differences. RCMC on the left, BEMC on the right. As you can see, by the time you get to Legacy speed step 11, the BEMC board motor speed is WAY faster than the RCMC board.
Lionel tried the BEMC on the Lionmaster class A and one of the last Legacy 0-8-0's several years ago.
Low speed performance was poor to say the least. I think the old TMCC Lionmaster class A actually runs better than the newer Legacy BEMC version.
@rplst8 posted:Why not used a BEMC. They’re quite a bit smaller i think.
Not mentioned yet is the BEMC requires the additional RCDR to receive data. Not unlike the the older R4LC, DCDE combination.
Pete
Someone's blowin' a few out on eBay:
@Norm Charbonneau posted:Someone's blowin' a few out on eBay:
$700 shipped free, pretty good price. 
One wonders about what the situation is...
@gunrunnerjohn posted:$700 shipped free, pretty good price.
They're certainly not hobby related. They have everything from clothing, to sump pumps listed.
Not to mention, the photos show the tender connected backwards.
It looks like a vendor that deals with stock from stores that are closed. Maybe a recently defunct hobby shop?
While we're focused on the L1 and the other thread with the I1. Let's not forget that nearly every medium to small sized Lionel steam since 2011 has, or is getting this gearbox.
I think there's a reasonable chance it's in Strausburg 90 as well. You can see the " hitch in its giddyup " in some of the youtube videos when it's going in reverse.
Maybe Lionel should start including a shim assortment in the box, just in case.
@Norm Charbonneau posted:Someone's blowin' a few out on eBay:
@gunrunnerjohn posted:$700 shipped free, pretty good price.
I mean, it's not a bad price. But based on my preorder price, I wouldn't call it a blowout by any means.
I didn't order one of these, so I don't know what they went for.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I ran across this with the Atlantic basket case I was working on that you had a big part in making whole. I found a motor and didn't realize that it was a two-thread worm instead of the stock single-thread. It took a bit to figure out that the 2-chuffs instead of 4-chuffs was because of the wrong worm. The amazing part is the two-thread worm worked perfectly with the existing worm gear, no binding and smooth running.
The dual helical is often the only change Samhongsa made between their 42:1 gear box and their 21:1 box they did not bother to change the wheel on some locos though ideally the dual helical worm needs a bit more skew to the teeth on the worm wheel. j
@Norton posted:Lionel did change the chassis on the K-Line B&A Berkshire to accept a larger motor in the firebox. The change to the gearbox was hardly different than what they did with this L1. They were also able to fit an RCMC in the engine and use the existing shell with virtually no modification.
Pete
Hi Pete. I have the Legacy Boston & Maine Berk, is that the same story for mine too? Unable to see my locomotive at present to check...
@c.sam posted:Hi Pete. I have the Legacy Boston & Maine Berk, is that the same story for mine too? Unable to see my locomotive at present to check...
Sam, the B&M and B&A Berks use the same frame.
Pete
Thanks Pete. What kind of motor do we have then?
@Norton posted:Sam, the B&M and B&A Berks use the same frame.
Pete
@c.sam posted:Thanks Pete. What kind of motor do we have then?
I have both the K-Line and Lionel versions of the T1b (B&M) Berkshire. The K-Line 4198 has the forward facing RS385 motor and simple gearbox. The Lionel 4199 has a Canon motor in the firebox, universal linkage from motor to gearbox, and a compound gearbox.
@c.sam posted:Thanks Pete. What kind of motor do we have then?
Sam, as WBC points out the Lionel Legacy engines came with a Canon. When I built mine I used a 56mm Pittman. Same physical size they are interchangable.
Pete
Mine arrived today in my Cumberland Valley set. The right front pilot step was broken off...fixed it with Gorilla glue. Seems alright. Opened it up, no loose screws. Opened up the gearbox and loaded it up with 2.5ml of Super-Lube. Runs fine in foreward and reverse. It was jumpy at slow speeds at first, but it smoothed out.
@Stinky1 posted:Runs fine in foreward and reverse. It was jumpy at slow speeds at first, but it smoothed out.
Apply a little load while you attempt to run in reverse, that's when the problem is most likely to occur.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Apply a little load while you attempt to run in reverse, that's when the problem is most likely to occur.
I did it with 14 cars. Seems fine...uh oh better not jinx myself! Haha
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Apply a little load while you attempt to run in reverse, that's when the problem is most likely to occur.
Were able to get Tom’s fixed John? ….gotta give a plug to Norm too. My oldest boy is into 3D printing, so gave Norm’s STL files to him and voila!!….I breezed through 3 more locomotives….bravo Norm!…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Were able to get Tom’s fixed John? ….gotta give a plug to Norm too. My oldest boy is into 3D printing, so gave Norm’s STL files to him and voila!!….I breezed through 3 more locomotives….bravo Norm!…
Pat
He hasn't brought it over yet, but I'm sure I can fabricate a shim from Styrene sheet pretty easily when I see it.
I can bring it Saturday. I was going to pick up my I1 that I ordered, but thinking of skipping the headache of another disappointment from lionel.
Curious what they say is the issue, and what the work order says the remedy was, ….aren’t they now 0 for 2 that we know of?
Pat
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