I should be getting Pennsy 520 soon as the Cumberland Valley sets have shipped. I'll also post my findings.
@Stinky1 posted:I should be getting Pennsy 520 soon as the Cumberland Valley sets have shipped. I'll also post my findings.
I wish they would have had that one as a stand alone as well as set offering, but alas, better this way I suppose.
I think Lionel knew the model of the sole preserved example would be the one most desirable (same case with the I1 Decapods) and sold them in the set intentionally.
All my buddies in the clubs haven't had any issues (at least yet) with their L1s, but we'll see how the 520 fares...
@WBC posted:I purchased the Santa Fe version of this locomotive. Other than the dry gearbox, there has been absolutely no problems with the locomotive. At $800 for a beautiful locomotive and brass tender, yes, I would buy again.
I think this was the better deal of the L1s' offered. More prototypically accurate compared to the PRR offerings with the incorrect tender. I thought the price was right on these models but was disappointed by the color right off the bat and then let down by the gearbox (and pickup roller) issues.
I do commend Lionel for making a back-drivable worm gear drivetrain. I think the first one I remember was in the CCII ESE Hudson and I think the general idea was to remove as much friction and backlash as possible for better closed-loop response. The Legacy era Canon powered ones seem decent with the universal coupling but these direct drive Mabuchi ones need some type of user adjustment. I wish they would build this modern era diecast stuff with drop-out axles and gears.
Treat yourself Dave you deserve it - you’re dead a long time - haven’t run my 1369 yet but it looks awesome 😊🚂
As I’ve mentioned before, I doubt seriously they went through the trouble to purposely design a back drive gear box. I believe ( and by no fault of Lionel ) that back drive is a by product of the work around needed for Legacy speed steps & the current crappy motor selections from vendor stock,….it just so happens that some steam locomotives they can get away with a tiny 385 and back drive to make it smooth………all the years of TMCC & ERR Cruise, and we never had nor needed back drive with a Pittman and a range of 16-18:1 gear ratios with locked gears……100 speed steps does just fine ……so other than Pittman’s exodus from our hobby, why all the bother for back drive? ….prove me wrong,….😉
Pat
@Norm Charbonneau posted:I do commend Lionel for making a back-drivable worm gear drivetrain. I think the first one I remember was in the CCII ESE Hudson and I think the general idea was to remove as much friction and backlash as possible for better closed-loop response.
I don't think they designed it to be back-drivable. I think it had a wimpy motor and they needed to spread the torque over a higher RPM range to be able to control it properly, and maybe just so that it could have any chance of starting a heavy train.
...these direct drive Mabuchi ones need some type of user adjustment.
That phrasing is being very generous.
Yeah I’m just going to disagree here.
@rplst8 posted:So the motor shaft needs a throwout bearing?
Seriously… I was considering a Pennsylvania M1 and maybe even an I1, but I’m really doubtful at this point.
There's a first gen Legacy m1b on the FS forum right now for about half of the new one.
I have one of these m1bs. Pittman can motor with the standard simple gearbox design that's still back drivable ( if that matters). It'll run just as slow and smooth as the new ones, maybe even better.
You won't have whistle steam , but you won't have a "disco lipstick" color on the tender either. ( as Norm aptly named it)
You also have idle and chuff sounds unique to this early legacy locomotive. Whereas today everything gets pretty much the same chuff, just a different whistle.
@RickO posted:There's a first gen Legacy m1b on the FS forum right now for about half of the new one.
I have one of these m1bs. Pittman can motor with the standard simple gearbox design that's still back drivable ( if that matters). It'll run just as slow and smooth as the new ones, maybe even better.
You won't have whistle steam , but you won't have a "disco lipstick" color on the tender either. ( as Norm aptly named it)
You also have idle and chuff sounds unique to this early legacy locomotive. Whereas today everything gets pretty much the same chuff, just a different whistle.
Thanks for the heads up. I already have an M1b, though the MTH version that lacks whistle steam. I was more interested in the as-built M1 with the exposed steam delivery pipes above the cylinders, slat or footboard pilot, and the forward positioned headlight. Also, the 2023 Vol. 2 release also has the short 110P75 tender available.
The other thing about that particular older Legacy M1b is that it has the dreaded first generation Legacy boards (R4LC and DCDS).
An update and final repair procedure for these engines. ( at least the latest ones I’m seeing ) …..Some of this credit has to go to Norm C. ….his assessment of the pitch depth is correct, ….So without reinventing the wheel, here’s an easier fix that solves the problem. Again, I’m on no, 2 today, and both responded perfectly to this treatment. As Norm pointed out, in reverse, the motor gear is actually pulled down into the gear box simply by the helix’s direction. When this occurs, the motor gear is beginning to ride up on the blind portion of the gear where it’s blank, and not prominently cut. This is what’s causing the skip & lock in reverse!….In forward, there’s not an issue, because the gear is now pushed back, and is riding on the worm wheel on the best cut of the motor gear ( perfect mesh ) …….So the quick painless fix, that’s non invasive, is to shim the motor back with thin spacers,…..I’ve pointed this out in the below picture where the screwdriver is pointing to,…..This example belongs to Alex W. so we’ll button her up, then Alex asked for some added details, and for fun, I’ll post up the before and after pics …..Also to note, the loose and missing screws on Lionel’s end has got to stop!….I know a screw here & there will work loose, but it is getting out of hand,…..missing fasteners, loose fasteners all over Alex’s example …..Beautiful locomotive , they just need to get their act together,…….
Pat 
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Awesome! Thanks Pat!
Oh that's not good. Loose fasteners quickly make something good into something that ain't worth much. Especially if you hear dreaded sounds coming from what was your engine. No good. I do hope that the I1's have none of this crazy stuff, but alas, there will be something. Hopefully the tender is too long compared to the real deal, but you know that is the very least of what could possibly be wrong.
Thanks again Pat.
Here’s Alex W.’s ready to go to work,…..after fixing the gear box, we darkened all the side rods, and did a special touch to the crank pin fasteners, …..Alex & I both agreed the Lionel crew needed to be evicted in favor of the original fellas tasked to operate this appliance …..Alex commented he had the herky-jerky happening prominently in reverse,in a curve, so hopefully I can get this short video up here too,…..
Pat 
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And a short video of reverse ….slow and smooth …..like I said, really need to also lay credit to Norm, as I utilized his thoughts in implementing a better fix ….So these L1’s can be made rock solid,…..
Pat
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Now can you make them not green?! 
That's illogical, Bones...
Who made the crew figures?
@Stinky1 posted:Who made the crew figures?
They are stock MTH figures from the later PS2 & all PS3 Premier & Railking steam….you can find them at mthpartsandsales.com ….heck of a value considering how detailed they are!….here’s a sample,….click on service parts, and search “figures’ loads come up,….
Pat 
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@harmonyards posted:And a short video of reverse ….slow and smooth …..like I said, really need to also lay credit to Norm, as I utilized his thoughts in implementing a better fix ….So these L1’s can be made rock solid,…..
Pat
Wow what a difference! Thanks for the great work Pat. Between this and the H10, I'm glad we could get these steamers back in proper order.
Great work Pat! I think the engineer and fireman should be Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy. "Another fine mesh you've gotten me into!" 
I hope no issues with the new Lionel PRR M1 next year.
Maybe Lionel will take down some notes from this thread.
@cswalter posted:I hope no issues with the new Lionel PRR M1 next year.
Maybe Lionel will take down some notes from this thread.
We discussed the M1 already in this thread,…..as said a few times now, ….the M1 shares the same main frame as the Mohawk, …….the Mohawk in Legacy form is a pretty stout locomotive, ….given they have a track record of reusing existing tooling, you guys wanting a M1 should be fine ……colors?…well, that’s the 64 dollar question…y’all are on your own, ….I don’t know who’s in charge of colors at Concord, but they need to go to the optometrist immediately…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:We discussed the M1 already in this thread,…..as said a few times now, ….the M1 shares the same main frame as the Mohawk, …….the Mohawk in Legacy form is a pretty stout locomotive, ….given they have a track record of reusing existing tooling, you guys wanting a M1 should be fine ……colors?…well, that’s the 64 dollar question…y’all are on your own, ….I don’t know who’s in charge of colors at Concord, but they need to go to the optometrist immediately…..
Pat
Good to know.
I will be buying one of those.
Thank You.
@harmonyards posted:They are stock MTH figures from the later PS2 & all PS3 Premier & Railking steam….you can find them at mthpartsandsales.com ….heck of a value considering how detailed they are!….here’s a sample,….click on service parts, and search “figures’ loads come up,….
Pat
You should show the former crew Pat.
I sure can Dave, they’re still in the trash can!….😂😂😂🤣
Pat
I’ve used MTH crew as well…
thanks!
- Mario
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Those two dudes are true professionals, …..unlike the wannabes Lionel uses! 😝
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Those two dudes are true professionals, …..unlike the wannabes Lionel uses! 😝
Pat
I'll have you know, when it comes to safety on the rails.
The Lionel figures are superior due to the high level of visibility the have with their large bug eyes. 😉
Glad to hear this worked. Shimming the motor is a bit easier than slotting the cover. The motor being pulled into the gearbox in reverse helps explain how the failure only happens in reverse, at least in my examples. This is what led to my suspicion of there being a thrust issue vs. an engagement problem.
When I first got the 1369 it couldn't even back a 20-something car train without locking up. When it came back from Lionel, it would only lock when being stalled in reverse (which could occur if one of the rollers dropped into one of my #5s). Upon inspection I found that there is a shim on the gearbox top that may or may not have been there since the beginning, similar to earlier pics on this thread. I also found what appeared to be a thin washer that was cut in half and inserted under the two rear screws. Removing the shim/washers would cause the gearbox to be too tight in mesh, adding more shims would cause the gears to not engage well (was also noisy).
I still think Lionel meant well with this design whether it's this direct drive style or the Canon type. When set up correctly it has very little friction and lash. Back-drivable seems to be a byproduct of this effort according to some but think of it this way - your locomotives experience 'back-drive' more commonly in other situations that doesn't involve you pushing your engine around by hand. Running a heavy train downhill and/or decelerating rapidly can put a back load into the drivetrain. More commonly back drive would come from other engines involved in lashups.
In any case, all's well that ends well.
@harmonyards posted:I sure can Dave, they’re still in the trash can!….😂😂😂🤣
Pat
Did they get buried with all their other brothers?
@Norm Charbonneau posted:Glad to hear this worked. Shimming the motor is a bit easier than slotting the cover. The motor being pulled into the gearbox in reverse helps explain how the failure only happens in reverse, at least in my examples. This is what led to my suspicion of there being a thrust issue vs. an engagement problem.
When I first got the 1369 it couldn't even back a 20-something car train without locking up. When it came back from Lionel, it would only lock when being stalled in reverse (which could occur if one of the rollers dropped into one of my #5s). Upon inspection I found that there is a shim on the gearbox top that may or may not have been there since the beginning, similar to earlier pics on this thread. I also found what appeared to be a thin washer that was cut in half and inserted under the two rear screws. Removing the shim/washers would cause the gearbox to be too tight in mesh, adding more shims would cause the gears to not engage well (was also noisy).
I still think Lionel meant well with this design whether it's this direct drive style or the Canon type. When set up correctly it has very little friction and lash. Back-drivable seems to be a byproduct of this effort according to some but think of it this way - your locomotives experience 'back-drive' more commonly in other situations that doesn't involve you pushing your engine around by hand. Running a heavy train downhill and/or decelerating rapidly can put a back load into the drivetrain. More commonly back drive would come from other engines involved in lashups.
In any case, all's well that ends well.
It’ll be interesting & important to add your fix & POV on this issue Norm, ….I’m never too old to learn, & being armed with knowledge is 99% of the battle …..In the case of Alex W.’s & two others, I can provide the shims by thickness I used to get it to smooth out…..I slotted Dave’s and then added a 2mm “locking screw “ ( and 4 others that way too ) which achieved the same result, but obviously was a lot more work. …..the stock motor mount screws are way too short to reuse when shimming the motor off the mount, but a couple of turns with a 3-48 tap on the motor solved that issue and I was able to use off the shelf hardware……I don’t stock enough of the 3mm hardware used to mount Mabuchi’s ….3-48 flat heads do a perfect job ….I can provide the dimensions on those as well, …..keep us posted if you don’t mind….
Pat
@RickO posted:I'll have you know, when it comes to safety on the rails.
The Lionel figures are superior due to the high level of visibility the have with their large bug eyes. 😉
Agreed, ….Lionel’s engine crew hiring requirements specifically state “ must have eyes larger than a softball” …….
Pat
I printed some motor shims the other day for the 1369 and have gotten the gearbox to be less susceptible to locking up in a situation where the engine might stall in reverse. (This should be a rare thing now since the most likely stall situation was when I’d drop a roller into of my #5s which I mostly cured by printing more stout and secure pickup roller mounts.) It now plays very nicely with the 1343 in a doubleheader.
Excuse the crappy vid grabs. I printed the shims in a few different thicknesses - .3mm, .5mm, 1mm and 2mm. I tried a few and found that the .3mm seemed to work best. For what it’s worth I could simulate the lockup in reverse on the bench by manually turning the flywheel and holding the drivers tight by hand. 
Bad quality grab here but hopefully one can see that the worm is a multiple (4?) start vs. the more common double start. It’s amazing how much they changed in these gearboxes. As you can see, the worm threads are pretty short and one would wonder if they had a bit more thread the worm could stay centered across the first input gear.
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Nice Norm, ….an elegant approach for sure!…did it seem to smooth out reverse as well? I’ve had a few that would not only lock up, but seemed to stutter just a wee bit in reverse,…..after shimming, I definitely got rid of the lock up, and I did have to “run in” a few of them to get reverse to be nice & smooth,….
Pat
@Norm Charbonneau posted:I printed some motor shims the other day for the 1369 and have gotten the gearbox to be less susceptible to locking up in a situation where the engine might stall in reverse. (This should be a rare thing now since the most likely stall situation was when I’d drop a roller into of my #5s which I mostly cured by printing more stout and secure pickup roller mounts.) It now plays very nicely with the 1343 in a doubleheader.
Excuse the crappy vid grabs. I printed the shims in a few different thicknesses - .3mm, .5mm, 1mm and 2mm. I tried a few and found that the .3mm seemed to work best. For what it’s worth I could simulate the lockup in reverse on the bench by manually turning the flywheel and holding the drivers tight by hand.
Bad quality grab here but hopefully one can see that the worm is a multiple (4?) start vs. the more common double start. It’s amazing how much they changed in these gearboxes. As you can see, the worm threads are pretty short and one would wonder if they had a bit more thread the worm could stay centered across the first input gear.
Any chance you would share those stl's so we could print our shim's?
@Shawn_Chronister posted:Any chance you would share those stl's so we could print our shim's?
I second that, I have one coming in for the same complaint. Nice to see that there's a solution. FWIW, this one has already been back to Lionel and they couldn't find anything wrong. 
It also has a bad smoke fan motor, but since I have to take it apart anyway, that will be easy to add to the list.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I second that, I have one coming in for the same complaint. Nice to see that there's a solution. FWIW, this one has already been back to Lionel and they couldn't find anything wrong.
So I guess that means that the bad gear lash is built to spec lol!
I take delivery of my I1 in a few weeks if it's not a complete disaster and then I'm done with the new stuff.
From colors to gearboxes. I don't understand how they consistently forget ,what " worked " before.
They get a golden opportunity with the MTH tooling and then trip and fall all over the place.
@RickO posted:So I guess that means that the bad gear lash is built to spec lol!
I take delivery of my I1 in a few weeks if it's not a complete disaster and then I'm done with the new stuff.
From colors to gearboxes. I don't understand how they consistently forget ,what " worked " before.
They get a golden opportunity with the MTH tooling and trip and fall all over the place.
They didn’t forget.
There’s a thread elsewhere about the changes made to the former MTH RailKing 2-8-0 Consolidation they picked up for LC sets. It’s pretty unbelievable the hacking that was done.
It’s all about the bottom line.
