Lionel Legacy L1 Mikado …Tales From Harmon Shops

Looks like this one will be taken apart. Can't wait to see what it looks like on the inside, even though I have a pretty good idea what the insides do look like.

Here’s a short video of Dave’s locomotive, after a quick lube service, and fired up right out of the box, ….turn the volume up to hear the noises,…..

Pat

Thanks Pat! That's all I needed. Return it is.

So here’s the observations as I’ve opened this new engine up, and had a chance to look around,…..first and foremost THERE’S NOW A PRETTY GENEROUS SPACER ON THE INTERMEDIATE SHAFT!!!!……more on that in a minute, …I found no loose screws, and the wiring harnesses are the neatest I’ve seen on a lot of previous runs,….judge by the pics, the amount of grease is kinda lacking, IMO, but there is grease in the well, and on the gears,…..All & all, things look like they’ve improved this platform, it doesn’t answer why this engine is so noisy, or the one time jam up, but that’s what we’ll tackle next,…..So what I’ll do is clean all this grease out, Prussian blue these gears, and run a pattern,…..as I mentioned above, there’s clearly a nice metal spacer, larger than the intermediate shaft, that keeps the shaft from shifting,……I’d estimate shaft endplay at maybe .005-ish??…..so that’s a good thing,……now we’ll diag this noise, ….stay tuned…

Pat

@RickO posted:

Thanks Pat! That's all I needed. Return it is.

Maybe not so fast Rick!…..read on,….

Pat

What am I seeing over the flywheel in that first photo. Some kind of shroud?

BTW , rumor has it. That stuff in the gearbox works on chapped lips in the wintertime. 😉

This will be interesting on what the issue is.  Looking forward to the resolution

@RickO posted:

What am I seeing over the flywheel in that first photo. Some kind of shroud?

BTW , rumor has it. That stuff in the gearbox works on chapped lips in the wintertime. 😉

Rick, …yes, …there’s a shroud over the flywheel, my best guess at the very moment, is that shroud is supposed to keep the smoke fluid off the flywheel and prevent it from being slung around……the smoke units are literally right there,….

Pat

That video sounds terrible (and I don't mean the quality!).

Sounds like the flywheel is rubbing that shroud. Maybe in reverse the motor thrusts enough to cause some extra encoder grief? I have two in order but they seem to be delayed.

BTW Pat, while you’re in there can you measure the final gear ratio?

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Sounds like the flywheel is rubbing that shroud. Maybe in reverse the motor thrusts enough to cause some extra encoder grief? I have two in order but they seem to be delayed.

BTW Pat, while you’re in there can you measure the final gear ratio?

Norm, sure, I’ll get the gear ratio, and post it on here,….and I’ll look at the shroud for any witness marks,…..I haven’t dove in to the noise issue yet,…..but we’ll figure it out,…

Pat

Pat, I missed something.  What was Dave's objective sending a brand new engine to you?  Had you found the engine to operate perfectly, no noise, stalls, etc., what was the plan?

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I have two in order but they seem to be delayed.

I'm in the same boat, still waiting for mine.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Pat, I missed something.  What was Dave's objective sending a brand new engine to you?  Had you found the engine to operate perfectly, no noise, stalls, etc., what was the plan?

The plan is a perfect running engine, ….to be honest, we were both expecting to have to apply the “fix” to the gear box, even if it did run good, …on previous runs, it’s a cheap insurance policy. So now that they’ve added a spacer, that won’t be necessary, but now we have this lovely noise to contend with,….😉

Pat

Pat;

Thanks for taking on this exploration… you are a true credit to the entire hobby and we’re very lucky to have you. I have have a 1343 which I recently purchased and only had a chance to do a brief test run - I now know what to listen for!!!

One question - do you need to open up the engine (something I’m not comfortable doing!!!) to check/grease the gears shown in your second picture???

I will definitely be following your progress. Thanks.

@harmonyards posted:

The plan is a perfect running engine, ….to be honest, we were both expecting to have to apply the “fix” to the gear box, even if it did run good, …on previous runs, it’s a cheap insurance policy. So now that they’ve added a spacer, that won’t be necessary, but now we have this lovely noise to contend with,….😉

Pat

Thank you very much, Pat!  It’s always something!!

What are these thingies hanging off the encoder?
If they are touching the board that could be the source of the  frequency of the noise. Probably changes with load/direction/armature thrust.

Wonder if this sensor is sitting too low to the board. Line of sight may be compromised to the LED, leading to loss of control/error codes.

Gears look pristine, no evidence of damage. What people are calling ‘lock up’ might be control loop weirdness.

Could try loosening the set screw and scooching the flywheel/encoder up the shaft a bit (can see a bit of it exposed). Still kinda concerned about the optical sensor alignment, we might have two probs. Sensor alignment, sensor clearance.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

What are these thingies hanging off the encoder?
If they are touching the board that could be the source of the  frequency of the noise. Probably changes with load/direction/armature thrust.

Wonder if this sensor is sitting too low to the board. Line of sight may be compromised to the LED, leading to loss of control/error codes.

Gears look pristine, no evidence of damage. What people are calling ‘lock up’ might be control loop weirdness.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Could try loosening the set screw and scooching the flywheel/encoder up the shaft a bit (can see a bit of it exposed). Still kinda concerned about the optical sensor alignment, we might have two probs. Sensor alignment, sensor clearance.

Norm, I looked at the encoder spacing, flywheel spacing, etc, right out the gate, …..there’s generous spacing between the encoder ring and the sensor itself,….on both sides….there’s almost zero motor shaft play, ……….the shield in front of the flywheel is not in any contact with the flywheel…..the little thingies you circled are the motor leads soldered to the board…..I guess my pic is playing tricks on us, as there’s nothing near the encoder ring…..I just double checked all that stuff, …..believe me, I’d like to find the easy fix too!!….

BTW, the gear ratio is 16:1

Pat

Ah, I see. Just the other side of the encoder. The noise still sounds directly proportional to motor speed.

Interesting gear ratio, thought it might be closer to 20:1. Should be interesting to see what you find.

So some interesting findings, …..any techs on here know what I’ve circled in this picture?….also to note, in early findings, there’s no way in the world that worm wheel is centered so the worm shaft is riding in the middle like the math in my head says it should,….more about that when I dye these gears, and see where things are……also to note, there’s a very thin piece of clear plastic between the motor mount lid, and the gear box itself,….I haven’t measured it yet, but it’s paper thin,…..if I take that shim out, the gear box jams up solid,…..crazy!!……more to come …..interesting evening!..

Pat

@Apples55 posted:

Pat;

Thanks for taking on this exploration… you are a true credit to the entire hobby and we’re very lucky to have you. I have have a 1343 which I recently purchased and only had a chance to do a brief test run - I now know what to listen for!!!

One question - do you need to open up the engine (something I’m not comfortable doing!!!) to check/grease the gears shown in your second picture???

I will definitely be following your progress. Thanks.

Paul, you can add grease to the gear box through the grease plug ( Phillips head screw on the bottom ) ….one thing for sure, and @WBC touched upon this earlier, they need grease out the gate!!….I’d say at least a half teaspoon full, …..curious how much WBC added right out the gate as well,….

Pat

Well, we all knew that there was definitely a possibility that these may be like the K4's and the other Mikado's.

When I saw the shroud over the flywheel, I thought about the Pennsy E6 in that the flywheel and the wires would say hi to each other. Gunrunner John had posted about fixing that with tape(not regular electrical tape though). I did manage to do that fix by myself(miracle of miracles).

The sound of clicking reminds me of clockwork, that is, not so good sounding clockwork. That is concerning much like Rick's video of the K4, just not as grindy sounding as that was.

@harmonyards posted:

Paul, you can add grease to the gear box through the grease plug ( Phillips head screw on the bottom ) ….one thing for sure, and @WBC touched upon this earlier, they need grease out the gate!!….I’d say at least a half teaspoon full, …..curious how much WBC added right out the gate as well,….

Pat

Thanks for the interior shots of the locomotive guts.

I added 2.0 mL of Li grease by syringe while turning the wheels by hand.

Wow, a compound gearbox with only a 16:1 final ratio is surprising to me.  I have several Weaver steam locomotives with a simple worm on the motor shaft and worm gear on the axle and those are 16:1.  The compound gearboxes in my 3rd Rail Decapods yield a 31:1 ratio.

I always learn stuff from these Harmon Shops threads! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Pat, I missed something.  What was Dave's objective sending a brand new engine to you?  Had you found the engine to operate perfectly, no noise, stalls, etc., what was the plan?

Yeah Mark, I have quite an engine house of engines that need fixing of gearboxes much like the new L1. I have a bunch of K4's, some Mikado's, but luckily, no Pacific's to send to Pat. He already has my H10 Consolidation that went with the NYC Pacific. Pacific was okay, H10 not so much. I believe that the total gearbox issue engines I have left to send to Pat is 7 or 8. I would have to look at the list and remember which ones I didn't buy, lol.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Yeah Mark, I have quite an engine house of engines that need fixing of gearboxes much like the new L1. I have a bunch of K4's, some Mikado's, but luckily, no Pacific's to send to Pat. He already has my H10 Consolidation that went with the NYC Pacific. Pacific was okay, H10 not so much. I believe that the total gearbox issue engines I have left to send to Pat is 7 or 8. I would have to look at the list and remember which ones I didn't buy, lol.

Dave, it seems you could keep Pat in a full time after hours job!  😄  I can see why you are suspicious!   Wow!  You will have quite a roster when Pat is done!

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I believe that the total gearbox issue engines I have left to send to Pat is 7 or 8. I would have to look at the list and remember which ones I didn't buy, lol.

Your much more patient than I. This L1 would have been #4 for me with this poorly designed gearbox, but I've had enough. Add to that the too light green and the black pilot, pure laziness.

Hopefully the I1 decapod will turn out better as maybe Lionel won't have a generic chassis to put underneath it. After that, no more new stuff for me.

Meanwhile so called "defunct" MTH is cranking out quality locomotives with fabulous "correct" paint jobs, go figure.

Carry on Pat, your a huge asset to this forum as well as the hobby! I'm gonna go run some trusty TMCC steamers and cool off.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Dave, it seems you could keep Pat in a full time after hours job!  😄  I can see why you are suspicious!   Wow!  You will have quite a roster when Pat is done!

Yeah Mark, when I found out about the K4's I was extremely disappointed. When Pat started his topic on them and the other gearbox engines, I was in his inbox almost immediately. We talked about it in detail way back when, and we know what needs to be done, it is just down to time both to send, and both to be free to work on. Pat is set to retire from his second job, and get back to full time railroading. That is when things will be moving for sure.

@RickO, yeah, agreed Rick. I am a PITA when it comes to having stuff work, that is what I want, I want, so I usually get things fixed if they need to be. It does stink that out of the box, problems seem to be there that shouldn't be. As a former coworker used to say, "Swallowed the hook", that is pretty much where I found myself. Having had the engines in question for a time really would seem out of the question to try and take it back to my local train store, and I wouldn't want to do it to them. If it were someone else I was buying from, still a maybe. They're mine, and I wanted them, and I want them to run right with Pat fixing them. It shouldn't have to be that way, but alas, that is just how it is now. I am curious as to what the new catalog is going to bring, that is the V2, will there be issues? I am hoping that the Hippos don't, which when they arrive, we will find out quick.

Does anyone know if the greenbrier  kept an mth gearbox? Or was it changed too?

I don't have a problem with the multi stage gearing.  I have several locomotives with this type of gearing without any problems.

If one looks behind the wheels this oilite bushing can be seen.

First,  some oil needs to be put on that bushing.

Secondly, from an engineering perspective, that oilite bushing ought to be a ball bearing.  Ball bearings would take the forces much better. Ball bearings in that location would be much less prone to jaming.

@harmonyards.  I am not a tech, but since the smaller hole in the circled item appears to be threaded it reminds me of a ground wire mount that is in my Polar Express Berkshire engine.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Yeah Mark, when I found out about the K4's I was extremely disappointed. When Pat started his topic on them and the other gearbox engines, I was in his inbox almost immediately. We talked about it in detail way back when, and we know what needs to be done, it is just down to time both to send, and both to be free to work on. Pat is set to retire from his second job, and get back to full time railroading. That is when things will be moving for sure.

Yes, I hope Pat gets to that point soon.  Me?  They didn’t want me anymore, let me go twice in fact.  I was going to work longer, but it didn’t work out.  🤷‍♂️

@RickO posted:

Your much more patient than I. This L1 would have been #4 for me with this poorly designed gearbox, but I've had enough. Add to that the too light green and the black pilot, pure laziness.

Hopefully the I1 decapod will turn out better as maybe Lionel won't have a generic chassis to put underneath it. After that, no more new stuff for me.

Meanwhile so called "defunct" MTH is cranking out quality locomotives with fabulous "correct" paint jobs, go figure.

Carry on Pat, your a huge asset to this forum as well as the hobby! I'm gonna go run some trusty TMCC steamers and cool off.

New MTH and quality TMCC 5.0 stuff from Korea. That’s the ticket!

I’ve had luck with new stuff, 3751, S1, SW8, etc., but absolutely no more pre-orders. I was really hoping the L1 and I1 would work out, but I’m glad I hesitated.

@harmonyards posted:

So here’s the observations as I’ve opened this new engine up, and had a chance to look around,…..first and foremost THERE’S NOW A PRETTY GENEROUS SPACER ON THE INTERMEDIATE SHAFT!!!!

…as I mentioned above, there’s clearly a nice metal spacer, larger than the intermediate shaft, that keeps the shaft from shifting,……I’d estimate shaft endplay at maybe .005-ish??…..so that’s a good thing,……now we’ll diag this noise, ….stay tuned…

I’m not seeing a spacer, but you have it in front of you not me. One thing is for sure, the worm wheel looks way off center, assuming the worm is equidistant from the screw holes.

If you look close, the clearance cut for the worm gear is to the right in the picture, that isn't supposed to be centered to leave room for the gear.  The spacer is on the right next to the worm gear.

I’ll need to look at it on the computer, and not this smart phone to see what everyone is talking about!  🧐

@rplst8 posted:

I’m not seeing a spacer, but you have it in front of you not me. One thing is for sure, the worm wheel looks way off center, assuming the worm is equidistant from the screw holes.

There’s definitely a spacer down in the well, ….the axle shaft for the intermediate gear set is quite a bit thinner than that bright silver spacer to the far right that John pointed out,….plus, that spacer spins, and the shaft doesn’t when I hold the gear set stationary….that spacer is just slightly larger than the shaft bushing in the gear box wall,…..there is very very little shaft end play on this new set up,…..I suspect I should have answers this evening,…..hopefully, if work goes ok,….

Pat