Lionel Legacy Suburban "Double Ender" Locomotive

I turned the lights on for you...

Glad to hear it. Mine is supposed to arrive today (09-15-2020). I'm hoping it looks and runs as it should.

MELGAR

Having been priced out of the new train market it has been a while since I've even looked at any new catalogs.  Didn't know Lionel was re-issuing this loco.  I'm really glad they did.  It's such a unique loco that I always wanted but alas my old layout could not accommodate its minimum radius and since I plan to try to reuse as much track and switches as I already have on my future layout I doubt I will ever own one.

@coach joe posted:

Having been priced out of the new train market it has been a while since I've even looked at any new catalogs.  Didn't know Lionel was re-issuing this loco.  I'm really glad they did.  It's such a unique loco that I always wanted but alas my old layout could not accommodate its minimum radius and since I plan to try to reuse as much track and switches as I already have on my future layout I doubt I will ever own one.

You're kidding, right?  The Legacy 4-6-6T runs on O31 curves!

The driver wheelbase on the 4-6-6T model (listed for O-31) is 3.75 inches (15 feet full scale) compared to 3.50 inches (14 feet full scale) on an MTH scale-sized 4-6-4 Hudson (listed for O-42). The cab roof on the Hudson extends 5.90 inches (23 feet - 7 inches full scale) behind the axle of the rear drivers. The tender of the 4-6-6T, mounted on the engine frame, extends 5.375 inches (21 feet - 6 inches full scale) behind the axle of the rear drivers. With its smaller diameter driving wheels, the 4-6-6T model should get through an O-31 curve but I think the rear overhang of the 4-6-6T (and clearance required) on O-31 may be as large as the Hudson on O-42. If anyone is interested, I'll calculate the exact clearances for both. Just keeping myself busy looking-up NYC locomotive data.

MELGAR

Edit:

I ran the clearance numbers for the D-1a and J-1e models (based on a width of 10 feet - 5 inches full scale for both engines). For the D-1a suburban engine, the outermost point on the engine will be 2.69 inches outside the track center line on an O-31 curve. For the J-1e Hudson, the corresponding distance will be 2.50 inches on an O-42 curve.

MELGAR

@coach joe the issue is not just whether "x" locomotive can be forced to run on "y" radius, but whether it will do so smoothly and comfortably.  Also, whether it looks good with your buildings and other rolling stock.

I'm not a fan of operating scale-proportioned steam on toy-train curves.  0-4-0's and 0-6-0's might be the exception, but even an 0-6-0 will look huge next to a RailKing Pacific.  Of course the 773 Hudson (which is scale-sized) always operated on O31 curves.  It LOOKS out of place, and yes there is major overhang.  But it runs fine, as it was designed to do.  A well broken-in 773 and tender can go from straight track through an O31 curve at 10 scale mph or less without moving the transformer lever, and without speeding up or slowing down!

@MELGAR good info.  But the MTH Premier Hudsons (going all the way back to the Proto-1 versions) have some design characteristics that inhibit their operation on sharp curves.  I have the 20-3020-1.  It will RUN on O42 but it's not graceful or happy about it, especially when running "light" (i.e., not pulling a train.)  The length of the rigid wheelbase is important, but that's only one factor.  Other considerations include subtle differences in wheel gauging; the presence of rubber tires and their placement; side rod design; motor revolutions per inch of travel (i.e., gear ratio); stored energy in the flywheel (if there is one); and the presence or absence of speed control.

Most of these parameters are undocumented and go unnoticed.  With MTH in particular I used to tell folks to go up one size.  I.e., if the box says O42, you'll see some improvement on O54.  The later stuff with Proto-2 is better about running on sharper curves.  But if your layout is O31, RailKing or LionChief Plus will look better and run better, stay away from the scale stuff.  My $.02.

Skip, that is a really nice looking model. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it appears to have a fully rounded underside boiler, is that accurate? If so, that is top-notch.

@Ted S posted:

But if your layout is O31, RailKing or LionChief Plus will look better and run better, stay away from the scale stuff.  My $.02.

 

Everyone has their preferences and what they feel is "proper".  The 4-6-6-T will run on O31 curves, it's pretty much up to the user if they feel it looks "good" doing it.

Does anyone know whether this engine was made in China or Korea?

MELGAR

@NYC Fan posted:

Lionel did a great job reissuing the K-Line 4-6-6T Locomotive. Naturally I went for the NYC version #1297 even if the locomotive spent 23 years, 1928-1951, on the B&A and only 1 year, March 1951 - March 1952,  in New York Central livery. Both the B&A and the NYC engines are prototypical, beautiful and they run great too.

 

Skip;

I picked mine up from Grzyboski’s this morning... looking forward to unpacking it and taking it for a spin!!! 

Could you tell me what it pulled during that one year on the NYC??? Thanks.

@MELGAR posted:

Does anyone know whether this engine was made in China or Korea?

MELGAR

Wouldn't the box have to indicate the country of origin?

@Apples55 posted:

Skip;

I picked mine up from Grzyboski’s this morning... looking forward to unpacking it and taking it for a spin!!! 

Could you tell me what it pulled during that one year on the NYC??? Thanks.

I don't know if this is fact but recall hearing it pulled the commuter train between Buffalo and Niagara Falls. If so likely not more than two cars, maybe only one. My earliest memory they had already switched to RDCs aka Beeliners for that route on the Central.

Pete

@Apples55 posted:

Could you tell me what it pulled during that one year on the NYC??? Thanks.

Paul,

I have been doing a lot of reading about the New York Central and Boston & Albany railroads this year. The Central leased the B&A in 1900 and, especially in later years, freight and passenger cars with either name ran on the B&A. The D-1a suburban engines were replaced by diesels in Boston commuter service and renumbered in March 1951 to New York Central #1295 to #1299. The last one (#1297) was removed from service on the Harlem Division in March 1952. There are pictures showing them with B&A (dark green?) round-roofed coaches around Boston and there were similar coaches in NYC livery around New York City, but I haven't been able to find a picture of them with a D-1a engine around New York. On my layouts, the suburban engine will pull New York Central lightning-stripe gray coaches. By the way, UPS just delivered my engine. It was made in China...

MELGAR

Thanks Pete and Professor Melgar     That makes my choice rather easy... I have a pair of GGD gray NYC coaches which I can use for an early 50’s Harlem Line commuter consist!!!

 I have the K-Line B&A. These were also done in 2 rail. I hounded GGD years ago to offer a small run of B&A coaches. The B&A ran the coaches Melgar mentioned with a rounded roof. I believe they called them suburban coaches.  They also had a number of the more traditional coach with 2 axle trucks.

 I visited an O Scale 2 rail club layout in Central Mass. a few years ago. One of the members was running a Tank engine  with Atlas coaches. Lettered for the B&A. I inquired about the lettering. Microscale has the decals. Don’t know the product #. It’s a NYC set. It also has the subsidiary roads in the set. Each set will only do one car. For those looking to do a B&A commuter train. The undecorated Atlas cars might be worth looking into if your running smaller curves. With the short engine the 60 ft. cars looked good. I ended up buying a couple sets and applied them to some GGD coaches.

Dave C,

How about a picture of your engine and coaches?

MELGAR

 I weathered mine myself. K-Line actually offered a few of these as factory weathered engines. Pictured with a GGD coach.

 I ended up fixing the rear pilot on mine and adding a Kadee. Took a bit of fabricating to create a spacer. When running as a true double ender. It looks much better without the swinging pilot and coil coupler. The dummy front coupler was replace with an Atlas scale coupler.

 If you need B&A decals. This is the set you need.

@Apples55 posted:

Skip;

I picked mine up from Grzyboski’s this morning... looking forward to unpacking it and taking it for a spin!!! 

Could you tell me what it pulled during that one year on the NYC??? Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it would have been in commuter service but there is very little documentation. I can tell you that there are photos of these engines in Gardenville, NY in the Buffalo area, at the East Syracuse Roundhouse, and in Watertown, NY.. I'm thinking that although they were actually scrapped by March 1952, they were likely whitelined and in the deadline after only a few months on the NYC. I had never heard that they were used on the Harlem Division and would love to know if that's true and/or if they were ever used in the New York City area.  

@NYC Fan posted:

I'm pretty sure it would have been in commuter service but there is very little documentation. I can tell you that there are photos of these engines in Gardenville, NY in the Buffalo area, at the East Syracuse Roundhouse, and in Watertown, NY.. I'm thinking that although they were actually scrapped by March 1952, they were likely whitelined and in the deadline after only a few months on the NYC. I had never heard that they were used on the Harlem Division and would love to know if that's true and/or if they were ever used in the New York City area.  

Thanks, Skip... luckily for me, I’m not a rivet counter, so it will run on MY Harlem line  

@Apples55 posted:

Thanks, Skip... luckily for me, I’m not a rivet counter, so it will run on MY Harlem line  

I've got mine on my Putnam Division 

@Andrew-Porter posted:

I turned the lights on for you...

Thanks!!!

Here's a shot with three D-1a locomotives. Unprototypically  pulling woodsided refers but it's my railroad!!!

I believe the K-line version was rated at 0-42 minimum and never wanted to take the chance of spending the asking price to find out if it would run on my layout or wind up sitting in the box.  Since I havent seen a Lionel catalog in some time I didn't know they were re-issuing this loco nor that they had change the minimum radius to 0-31.  I probably will not be able to afford the Legacy version so this loco still won't be riding he rails on my layout.  Those of you that can please enjoy this unique loco.