Lionel Legacy using a PW ZW…

If you’re fairly new to this hobby, I wouldn’t do it, ….leave the old Postwar transformer for old postwar locomotives, …..your 180 brick has probably the best & the fastest acting breaker in the industry. One false move with a ZW ( which can also double as a stick welder ) and it’s curtains for very expensive electronics. …..yes, you can TVS diode, snap acting breakers, etc,….but if you’re fresh out the gate, I’d suggest not doing it period, so you don’t get disappointed right out the gate,………it ain’t like you don’t have anything, you’ve got the brick, so use it where it’ll do the job it’s designed to do,…..protect X-pensive locomotives,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

If you’re fairly new to this hobby, I wouldn’t do it, ….leave the old Postwar transformer for old postwar locomotives, …..your 180 brick has probably the best & the fastest acting breaker in the industry.

Absolutely!  Even beyond the issue with the slow ZW circuit breaker, I observed that the new Legacy Acela did not run well with the post-war ZW. (The ZW sometimes gives the cab a blinking-light-of-death error code.)  The Lionel PH180 is great for running Legacy!

Agreed. After catching the command-control bug 5 years ago, I upgraded to modern transformers on the advice of several experts here and it was one of the best decisions I've made. Even my old, conventional prewar trains run better with the new, higher-watt transformers.

Power is power.  I run all PW transformers and have for years with my Legacy and DCS equipped locomotives.  Proper protection is key but easily achievable.

@MichRR714 posted:

Power is power.  I run all PW transformers and have for years with my Legacy and DCS equipped locomotives.  Proper protection is key but easily achievable.

Charlie, power ain’t power when you’re new to this game, …….clearly you’re a seasoned veteran, with years of experience under your belt, …….if Pete’s a novice, he should use the K.I.S.S. principle, …..no?…..then as he gains experience, such as you have, then experiment with this, …….nothing is more frustrating to a newcomer then to destroy a very expensive locomotive, ……it can be a game ender,…..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Charlie, power ain’t power when you’re new to this game, …….clearly you’re a seasoned veteran, with years of experience under your belt, …….if Pete’s a novice, he should use the K.I.S.S. principle, …..no?…..then as he gains experience, such as you have, then experiment with this, …….nothing is more frustrating to a newcomer then to destroy a very expensive locomotive, ……it can be a game ender,…..

Pat

Pat you make it sound like it's difficult to protect a circuit.  It isn't!

Let's not discourage people from pursuing alternatives.  I wasn't a seasoned veteran when I started using my PW transformers with my Legacy equipped engines.

@PeteH70 posted:

... ZW 275w transformer (fully updated with OGR recommendations) ...

An explanation of what "fully updated" means would probably help with the discussion.

Also, TVS diodes...

@MichRR714 posted:

Pat you make it sound like it's difficult to protect a circuit.  It isn't!

Let's not discourage people from pursuing alternatives.  I wasn't a seasoned veteran when I started using my PW transformers with my Legacy equipped engines.

Nothing will be more discouraging then letting the magic smoke out of an expensive engine if you’re not familiar with circuit protection, …..why take a chance when he’s got a 180 brick sitting there?….what might not be difficult for us, can be a mountain for others. If Pete is knowledgeable about circuit protection, then yes, it’s simple, but if he’s strictly going off advise, it’s Russian Roulette…..ain’t picking a fight Charlie, we just don’t know Pete’s ability until he tells us. So until then, I’d suggest he park the old Miller stick welder, and only use that for ancient equipment that either won’t care about a melt down, or is easily fixed for a few dollars,……zap one legacy engine, and then he’ll be discouraged, ….perhaps permanently,…….

Pat

@Mallard4468 The transformer has been updated with new cord, new posts, modern internal breakers etc. and I have the TVS diodes on hand. As for experience with wiring, electrical etc. I wire my turnouts to individual switches, created a bus system under my first layout and I install my own LED’s on accessories. I’m comfortable with wiring.

     Yes, I have a brick but enjoy the operation of the ZW (tried it on a friend’s layout years ago). This is what I have on hand:

1 180W Lionel power brick, Lionel TMCC direct lock on (can I use it between the xformer and track), and the Legacy command system. I plan to run both Legacy and conventional.

Have used this set up forever - no problem works great - gettin ready to set up again on new layout

I used 2 Post War ZW’s for almost 15 years with DCS all I ever had was fast blow 10A fuse never had an issue.

@RJT posted:

I used 2 Post War ZW’s for almost 15 years with DCS all I ever had was fast blow 10A fuse never had an issue.

Rick,

Your fuse is an excellent start.

But neither you, nor anyone else, can extend your lone experience to a much larger statistical population without a strong likelihood of being wrong.  On the other hand, if I take your observation, and hundreds of others that use the same approach, as a set, and in that set there are no failures then I can agree with you. 

There's a problem with generating an impression of "robust" based on one person's experience.   In your specific case you might be the luckiest person in the world, in which case your avoidance of disaster has little to do with your choice not to add TVS protection to your layout in addition to your fuse.

Is it time for you to buy a PowerBall ticket?

Mike

A postwar transformer with an up to date circuit breaker can operate a legacy loco, at least from my experience.  It is understandable that some here question the wisdom of doing this when the OP already has a 180w brick.  I would assume that using the brick to power the legacy loco would have occurred to the OP.  So maybe the question we should be asking is why the OP would want to abandon the brick for the postwar transformer.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Is it time for you to buy a PowerBall ticket

Is he doing so with the hope of becoming one of the fabulously wealthy using surplus cash, is he young and considering using lottery tickets as the basis of his retirement, or is he 60 and flat broke?  Sometimes we need to go beyond the basic question and try to understand the motivation for asking it.

@PeteH70 posted:

@Mallard4468 The transformer has been updated with new cord, new posts, modern internal breakers etc. and I have the TVS diodes on hand. As for experience with wiring, electrical etc. I wire my turnouts to individual switches, created a bus system under my first layout and I install my own LED’s on accessories. I’m comfortable with wiring.

     Yes, I have a brick but enjoy the operation of the ZW (tried it on a friend’s layout years ago). This is what I have on hand:

1 180W Lionel power brick, Lionel TMCC direct lock on (can I use it between the xformer and track), and the Legacy command system. I plan to run both Legacy and conventional.

Having a fast breaker and TVS sounds to me like you have it covered.  Some folks get into the wave pattern of PW transformers vs. modern ones when running modern engines - I can't speak to that, and have never had an issue, but I'm not an electrical engineer.  There are also discussions regarding what kind of breaker is "fast enough". 

One additional thought re the new cord - there is at least one refurbisher who adds a grounded plug to the ZW. Several experienced folks on the forum have said that's a bad idea.  I'm not well versed in the argument on that, but if you have a 3-prong plug it might be worth searching for the threads on that topic so you can decide for yourself.

Before reading more deeply on this forum, I ran my modern engines with old school power.  Never fried anything, but I now realize that I just got lucky.  When someone plays Russian roulette, they're right 5 out of 6 times.

OTOH, I was present when a friend fried an engine while running with a Z-4000 (modern breaker) - before realizing what had happened, I remember saying "I didn't know that engine had smoke".   

A question.  Does the Lionel PH180 brick have TVS protection?

@MichRR714 To my knowledge there is no TVS protection in the Lionel bricks.

@Bill N My current layout is 16x20 and will be expanding to an approximately 16x32 and will incorporate both conventional and Legacy. I’m not abandoning the brick by any means, cost is a significant factor and one brick runs anywhere from $150 and up. In the current configuration I run three engines (two diesels with consists of approximately 7 cars each) and a switcher doing yard operations and I’ve already noticed some “lag” (for lack of a better term) while running. This before I’ve added any accessories. I’m not the “rich” kid looking to famous on Y-Tube, I have a job, a family and a real life. I purchased the ZW for the cost of 2 bricks.

Thank you to everyone for your insight regarding my questions. I’m happy to say I’m running my ZW as follows:

ZW with new cord (no ground post), new internal breaker, new internal TVS, and external TVS at each post. I purchased Lionel’s adapter cord with in line fuse (6-12893) to connect through my TMCC Direct Lock On. The ground from the Legacy base is connected to the ZW then to the lock on, the lock on is connected to the track.

With the ZW unplugged and the Legacy remote turned off throttle “AU” is put at 18v, Legacy remote turned on and the ZW plugged in. Everything operated as advertised (Lionel Big Boy with steam, an SD60 with smoke and a switcher with smoke) all from Legacy for about an hour. The 10 switches operated flawlessly through the Legacy remote.