Lionel lockon hook up.

The 180 provides up to 10 amps...curious, just how much are you trying to run simultaneously?  (# of engines, lighted cars, plug and play items, etc).  How big is your track layout?

Layout about 20 ft long by 12 ft wide double decker.have about 12 engine on two main lines and a bunch of siding.i had one 180 brick power the whole table but have added about 6 or 7 more engines and now it seem to pop the breaker alot unless I take a few engine off so that's when I thought I could add another powerhouse brick 180 with a lionel  lock on but it just shorts out.

Brian

One more thing.most of the engines are tmcc with a few legacy. The system is legacy.

It’s the inrush of power needed to fire up all the engines at one time. I used to use a power master set on conventional so I could run the voltage up to max at a slower scale with the cab1.

I don't know what to do other then insulate some siding and park the engines were not running and go back to one power source unless someone else has a better answer.

20 engines sitting powered on a layout whether your running them or not is a BAD idea.

In case of a short you risk damaging much more than whatever causes the short.

Isolating a siding or an entire yard. Whatever your case may be ,and putting them on a toggle switch is the way to go.

Otherwise put unused motive power on a shelf.

1 brick should be adaquate on your layout to run at least 4 locomotives simultaneously , but you only want to power what your using.

Additionally, Lionel recommends wiring the brick to the track with 14 GA wire. It's also a good idea to have power feeders at least every 10' of track length.

You need to break the layout into a few power districts, with each district power by a PH180 (or other transformer like one side of a Z-4000).  You can isolate these districts by just cutting the center rail where you want the electrical break (you don't need to isolate the outside rails).

I personally have my engines parked on isolated tracks where I can turn on/off the electricity to the track with simple 10 amp SPST toggle switches.  No need to power the engine electronics when not running it.  All my engine storage tracks are on one power district, with the multiple isolated tracks controlled by toggle switches off a distribution block.

There is no issue with the engine going from one district to another as long as all transformers are in phase.  Should not be a problem with the PH180s unless you plug them into different outlets and your house wiring was done incorrectly (NOTE: there are a few older PH180s wired wrong).

Understand. So if I break up and isolate the whole yard with a different power brick 180.i need to still run the signal wire back to the powermaster which is connected also to the legacy base on the main powerhouse.?

Brian

I missed that you also had a PowerMaster.  You will need to have a separate PM for each district.  One PH180 and one PM for each district.

You mentioned the TPC 400.  If you go that route, I would get the new 360 PM and not the TPC. With the 360 PM you can connect two PH180s to it to get twice as much power to the track without doing anything else. That may solve your problem but 20 amps to the track is a lot and it might be better to go with power districts. I’m not sure what kind of CB protection the 360 PM has.

You only need one Legacy base for the whole layout.

@bkm posted:

I bought a lionel lockon and hook up another 180 brick but it just throw the breaker.i know its wire correctly.

The Lionel TMCC Direct Lockon handles a MAXIMUM of 10 amps, so that's really not doing anything for you.  You really need the Legacy PowerMaster 360 or a TPC-300/400 to have more than 10 amps on the track with dual transformers.

That being said, I strongly recommend you consider revising your running plan so you don't need all that power, when you get 20-30 amps on the track, a derailment can turn into a welding party, and your train is a participant!  I can tell you from first hand experience that the breakers on multiple ganged transformers don't always trip as you'd expect.

I personally won't run on a layout with more than 10A on a power district.

Best fix, Turn the sidings off. Don't leave your idle engines powered up.

I'm on it.

For this photo of a dozen engines with smoke units OFF, the Z4000 powering the turntable indicated 9.9 amps and couldn't hold that current for very long.  Some of the whisker tracks had to be turned off between shots.

The O.P. should first isolate the engine storage sidings so they can be powered off.

10 amps is sufficient to run two or three trains on a loop.  Each loop should be isolated from the other (if they are connected)  with fiber pins in any crossover tracks.  Each loop should be powered with a separate power brick.

Don't switch to a TPC.  The breaker is less sensitive than the internal breaker in the 180 Powerhouse bricks.   As GRJ mentioned, those of us who have tried the high amperage the TPC 400 is capable of are wary of the heat and damage caused by any derailment/short. 

A 12x20 layout should not need multiple power districts on the same loop - just power each loop separately.  If you have a big yard then that could be its own power district with its own power supply.

Reading these responses has me thinking about a future expansion I’m planning.  If I have a large layout and power it with two isolated sections (each having its own power brick), when an engine crosses the isolated section (ie goes from one powered section to the next independently powered section), does it hesitate at all?  What’s the best way to actually isolate assuming Fasttrack?

Listen to Rick. Do exactly as he said. 20 engines on powered track is a very bad idea. Adding bricks does nothing for the safety of your layout and trains.

Dave

@NoviceBen posted:

Reading these responses has me thinking about a future expansion I’m planning.  If I have a large layout and power it with two isolated sections (each having its own power brick), when an engine crosses the isolated section (ie goes from one powered section to the next independently powered section), does it hesitate at all?  What’s the best way to actually isolate assuming Fasttrack?

Lionel Fastrack block section.  On the bottom are three jumper wires.  You will only need to remove the center rail jumper.  See CAPPilot's response above.  There should be no hesitation if the voltage in each section matches and the power supplies are phased.

Brendan

Ok I took everybody's advice and I started isolating all my sidings so that should take care of my power problems.

Thanks again everyone.

Brendan

I have Lionel fastrack on my layout, 8X12. 3 parallel loops with manual switches to among the three loops.

Other than the terminal track, other sections do not have wires underneath. There are tabs to add wiring.  That said, how do I isolate Lionel fastrack to set up blocks? Due I cut the center rail? Or remove the center rail connector pins.

Thank you

I remove the pins where I could and I did cut one.

Thank you BKM

As a follow up, which provided the greater benefit? remove pins or cutting the center rail?

Follow up I removed pins on track that wasn't screw down and track that was screw down I cut them.

My layout is not totally screwed down as I am working on where to place the blocks.

Thank you !

@Steven posted:

Brendan

I have Lionel fastrack on my layout, 8X12. 3 parallel loops with manual switches to among the three loops.

Other than the terminal track, other sections do not have wires underneath. There are tabs to add wiring.  That said, how do I isolate Lionel fastrack to set up blocks? Due I cut the center rail? Or remove the center rail connector pins.

Thank you

Maybe the manual switches didn't come with the short section with the jumper.  Here is a photo of the jumper piece

Brendan

The manual switches did come with the short sections. I can use those instead of isolating a track and dropping wires?  I know may be a basic question but I am not real savvy with electric.

Thank you !!!

Hi all.

again, here are my basic (yes I am sure dumb) questions this weekend. I set up a test strip of straight fast rack. I ran a train up and down the test track. All is well. Then I removed the center pins from two sections that were connected, thereby leaving no center rail not connection. I ran a train up and down again and was expecting the train to stop after it crossed the section with no center pins. The rain continued to run. I am using at CW80 for the test.

The purpose was to isolate a section of track with the purpose of using the star wire method since I intend to use DCS. I do understand the star wiring concept, running wires from a terminal block to another block @10 ft. away. Then drop wire from the track to the block. The plan is to use 3 Lionel powerhouse bricks.

The point where I am lost is isolating the sections of track. Do I need to remove the pins from both the center and ground rails in order to properly isolate the track?
I apologize for this very basic questions but challenged as you can see,

thank you

Steve,

Does your engine have two sets of middle rail rollers underneath of it?  If so, then I would think that the engine won't stop until the last roller crosses the break in the center rail.

Or, it could be that your two center rails, even without a connecting pin, are just slightly touching.

Or, do you have a tender hooked to your engine, with a center rail roller underneath of it?  (Like a whistle tender does?)  If so, and the couplers between the tender and engine are metal, then the center rail power can still be flowing to your engine so long as the roller on the tender is still on the power side of the track.

Mannyrock

Mannyrock

Thank you for responding.

The train is a single power car, subway. It does have two rollers, one for each truck.

Also, the tracks still touch (du to me, should have realized that) so power will continue to be transferred.

I guess the only way  is to cut the center rail to ensure isolation.

Again, thank you Mannyrock

Steven: Rather than cut the rail, I like to put a piece of cardboard (cereal box) between the rails to keep them separated. I put a piece of wood (matchstick, toothpick) through the center of the cardboard first and put the wood where the pins used to be. Styrene would also do nicely as a separator. You'll have to form the separator (cardboard, styrene) to the shape of the rails. That's what I do.

Thank you Leo. Ill give it a try !! Ill let you know how it works.

Consolidated Leo - tantamount to fibre pins?

I guess. I have not come across plastic insulator pins like with Gargraves or Atlas.

     If for some very odd reason you happen to have a bit of 15 pound (or 30 pound) tar paper lying around (roofing paper), then a small scrap of that placed between the rails would work well too.  It is virtually water and oil proof, and although I have never researched it, it appears to me that on the Lionel tubular track, a tar paper product may be what they used on the bottom of the center rails to insulate it from the metal cross-ties.  It is flexible  but tough, and "molds" to the surface you place it on.

If any new houses are being built nearby, then just wait until they start putting the shingles down, and you will find scraps of the tarpaper lying on the ground.

Mannyrock

Steven - Several years ago Lionel used to sell plastic insulating pins for 'O' Gauge Track in one (1) dozen packs (product # 6-5543). You can still see them on ebay from time to time for very reasonable prices.

Mannyrock and PH1975 thank you for your responses.  Ill check EBAY. I have not found anything as far plastic joiners for fastrack.  But will try again !!!

I have used cut lengths of appropriate diameter weed wacker line for insulating pins on occasion. Cheap and plentiful...

John

@Steven posted:

Mannyrock and PH1975 thank you for your responses.  Ill check EBAY. I have not found anything as far plastic joiners for fastrack.  But will try again !!!

There are no plastic joiners. Block Section 6-12060 and/or the shorter 1+3/8" track 6-12073 are used instead. Note that 2 sections are required to fully isolate in either instance.

Clarified 03/31/2023.

@Steven posted:

Hi all.

again, here are my basic (yes I am sure dumb) questions this weekend. I set up a test strip of straight fast rack. I ran a train up and down the test track. All is well. Then I removed the center pins from two sections that were connected, thereby leaving no center rail not connection. I ran a train up and down again and was expecting the train to stop after it crossed the section with no center pins. The rain continued to run. I am using at CW80 for the test.

The purpose was to isolate a section of track with the purpose of using the star wire method since I intend to use DCS. I do understand the star wiring concept, running wires from a terminal block to another block @10 ft. away. Then drop wire from the track to the block. The plan is to use 3 Lionel powerhouse bricks.

The point where I am lost is isolating the sections of track. Do I need to remove the pins from both the center and ground rails in order to properly isolate the track?
I apologize for this very basic questions but challenged as you can see,

thank you

First, you do not need to separate the ground (outer rails) - only the center rail.

Second, in order to isolate the track sections, you can either cut the center rail, remove the center pin and use a non-conducting material between them, as per Leo, or use the special FT 1 3/8" section that has the wire underneath by removing it, if you can fit the section into your layout. Either method should work fine, but installing the isolated FT section is generally a neater install.

Third, if you are attempting to do this in order to divide the track into isolated blocks for the purpose of running DCS, I would not do it just yet. Many layouts run fine with DCS installed w/o dividing the tracks into isolated sections. The primary purpose of dividing the track into sections when using DCS is to prevent an engine from being overloaded with commands coming from all areas of the track, resulting in poor performance, but many tracks do not experience this, so I would wait.

Fourth, just install the DCS system using the star wiring method (TIU output to a terminal block such as the MTH one pictured) and then out to different pieces of track along the layout (your "power drop connections") and see how it performs. If it runs ok, you're done. If performance is spotty, you can then cut the center rail of the track equidistant from each power drop connection and that should work fine.