Lionel Quality makes me laugh, when I should be crying

Assuming Lionel trains are inspected in China and OK'd prior to packing and shipping, then falling-off parts, loose screws, etc. are probably caused by rough handling in transit. The good news is, Lionel warranty service is available to buyers of in-warranty products; the bad news is, Lionel has little or no control over shippers -- except to fire a shipper with a consistently poor record. But other shippers may be no better. Let's remember, most Lionel products travel halfway around the globe before arriving at a dealer's store or at one's doorstep.

I once received a Lionel item in its shipping box with a seriously crushed corner - obviously dropped somewhere along the route. However, thanks to styrofoam packing, the inner box was not damaged and the train packed inside was AOK.

Mike M.   (ritrainguy)

Most of issues I see come after about year or two of ownership.  Then no parts! 

I know people will say I'm nuts but everything in our lives has gotten way to complicated including our toy trains. Use to be a owners manual for a car was 40 to 50 pages now it's 250 pages. The more complicated our trains or cars the more things to break. What happen to the saying "keep it simple". That went out the window when computers entered our world.

This reminds me that the first high level Lionel loco I had that showed QC issues was the JLC Allegheny, which had a tendency to lose running gear screws and some of the small detail parts - much as you descibe with your Legacy version. (I think that the body/detailing tooling for the two is practically identical but obviously not the electronics and smoke equipment.) So Lionel QC issues are really nothing new; the JLC version was issued 11 years ago. 

But there’s no doubt it’s got worse recently, by which I mean, at least in my experience, the last couple of years. It’s pretty obvious from finding stray electronic parts as well as screws and indeed unattached major parts in the sealed box that the basic problem is really at the factory. Rough handling in shipping  accounts for some issues but not bad assembly.

That said, I persuaded myself to go for a VL Niagara after reading great reviews here and elsewhere and (a) the box it arrived in from a large Lionel dealer was in perfect shape and (b) the loco works exactly as advertised. So my faith is somewhat restored although the overall picture still seems pretty haphazard. This is not an encouragement to make major purchases and especially on a BTO basis.

I have a lot of LIONEL engines. I have the set my dad bought after the war in 45 and still runs fine. Sorry to say my love of modern Lionel is not what it should be mainly because of problems outside of their control I guess. The latest F 3 are a disaster. I've. Sent the powered b unit and the AAUnits back for repair . the A unit needed two trucks and new motor. The B unit needed to be reprogramed.  Tonite I checked out the A unit. I noticed. A sound that wasn't right and found that the electro couple was so hot I couldn't touch it. I turned the switch off and still the same problem, ill call lionel in the morning.

I have a lot of LIONEL engines. I have the set my dad bought after the war in 45 and still runs fine. Sorry to say my love of modern Lionel is not what it should be mainly because of problems outside of their control I guess. The latest F 3 are a disaster. I've. Sent the powered b unit and the AAUnits back for repair . the A unit needed two trucks and new motor. The B unit needed to be reprogramed.  Tonite I checked out the A unit. I noticed. A sound that wasn't right and found that the electro couple was so hot I couldn't touch it. I turned the switch off and still the same problem, ill call lionel in the morning.

various design defects or subpar parts used by lionel or there overseas vendor throught the years. makes buying used engines and accessories a crap shoot so to speak. with collectors getting older and selling large collections off. most of wich are new in the box they never opened. one has to research the lionel product to see if it had any issues or parts that were prone to fail. some of the more hard to get accessories that lionel has made no longer have parts available any more. the 1999 gray lift brige comes to mind. the average sesonal buyer of trains who only know that lionel was a train there grandpa or dad had and want to get stuff for thier kids and familly to start a nice layout. mostly see the nice new in the box stuff or almost new/like new on ebay and think it would be cool to have this and that. little do they know sometimes they are getting a new in the box lemon. due to no parts available any more. a savy lionel collector or vet can sometimes luck out and get a good deal if they know what to look for and how to trouble shoot and fix it. the newbie not a chance. they buy it then call lionel or take it to a lionel service center or local hobby store  fix it guy only to be told he or she can not fix it due to a odd part no longer made. now toss $200 or more out the window. this is were lionel quality control over the years affects the buyer the most. not only  just at the time it was made. when buying lionel anything especially from the lTI era do your home work. yes there are aftermarket parts vendors out there. they are not heavily advertised though to the newbies. also some of these guys are getting ready to retire and sell the buisness. then what are we to do. just my 2 cents.

Not saying you shouldn't do post like this, as they are helpful to most I guess, but the ones who will not/don't do preorders or buy the newer more advance items see this as proof why not to. What we really need to help that situation is when there is good and no problems report that also. I'm on the won't bench myself but I hope out of the thousands of engines shipped that there can't be more than 5% - 7% of them that actually have problems. 

So over the past three or so  years, I have encountered problems with  two out of ten Lionel engines I bought new from recent production. 

Now, that could be just my bad luck or not; no way to tell. One was diesel, one was steam. Neither would run at all. One was LC+ and the other Legacy. 

The other new engines run flawlessly so far and I am pleased with them.

I think this error rate is too high, if it accurately reflects the real average, which it may not.   Just  my opinion, based upon anecdotal evidence.

rtraincollector posted:

Not saying you shouldn't do post like this, as they are helpful to most I guess, but the ones who will not/don't do preorders or buy the newer more advance items see this as proof why not to. What we really need to help that situation is when there is good and no problems report that also. I'm on the won't bench myself but I hope out of the thousands of engines shipped that there can't be more than 5% - 7% of them that actually have problems. 

Well if certain companies have serious problems with their engines and repairs, why the heck would you keep buying them? That's a lesson to those companies to better themselves! Wow so if you like Ford trucks and they keep breaking down , your still going to buy them lol wow. When auto manufacturers have issues you sure hear about, why not trains. 

rtraincollector posted:

...but the ones who will not/don't do preorders or buy the newer more advance items see this as proof why not to. 

I agree with this statement as I'm one of the people that listen to all of the bad and think to myself "I'm glad I did get (insert loco here) !"  I know it's been said before but to plunk down a large amount of money on something that's missing part or just doesn't work right of out of box is very disheartening.  Plus to come from a company that's been around for a very long time who should have a handle on quality control is unforgivable, not to mention all of the zinc pest threads that have been posted. 

I haven't purchased Lionel for many, many years because of this (and other issues) and it just sounds like it's getting worse.  Currently, I'm tempted to tell my LHS to keep my pre-ordered VL Niagara as some have had some problems already, although most seem to be OK.

I think it is fair to be disappointed when quality of any product does not meet expectations.  I see two issues in the hobby right now that make the issue more annoying and frustrating than similar issues would have been when I was a kid. 

First, many local hobby shops have closed and so buying trains involves shipping.  Shipping trains is inherently risky, in terms of product damage.  Just a few weeks ago I ordered one of my boys a Genesis for Christmas.  The box looked like it had been thrown out of a moving vehicle.  Luckily it was well packed and survived but that type of treatment creates, I believe, many of the issues we hear about here.  Even I remember my dad, when we moved out to Long Island from Queens and didn't have a shop he knew, when the stuff needed to be fixed he would drive it to a place in Brooklyn rather than let UPS, USPS, or any shipper touch the trains.  For me, I have noticed that with our purchases over the years, the number of problems with in person purchases is markedly lower than when the product is shipped.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.

Second, the complexity of these electronic locos is terrific in terms of play value, but it makes them more expensive and harder to fix.  While we have terrific repair people here who are forum members, guys like GGG and gunnrunnerjohn, these guys do not represent the average level of hobbyist expertise.  And so when something is broken, and repairs involve either shipping the product back to the manufacturer or to an independent repair shop, the time and delay involved in shipping, as well as the risk of additional damage, creates yet additional frustration.  How many times would a problematic locomotive generate a complaint here if, for example, the person lived locally to an expert tech or to Lionel service or MTH and could have the issue fixed quickly?  I think the incidence of complaints would be far lower, and the customer satisfaction far higher. 

What I do to address these issues, as a long time hobbyist, is that when we buy something, and that has gotten rarer given that we have so much already, I try to buy it in person at York (I couldn't make it in October) or if it needs to be shipped, I favor MTH.  This is not a statement about Lionel, but for MTH stuff I have a good MTH service station nearby as well as MTH headquarters up the road in Columbia.  A few years ago, when the boys both got Alleghenies for Christmas, one of them had a finicky tether, which can happen with PS3.  I called MTH in Columbia, dropped the loco on a Friday and they called Saturday morning to tell me it was ready.  they were apologetic for the issue and that locomotive has been a workhorse since that time.  Similarly when I had a problem with a WIU that I posted about here, MTH service resolved the issue within a week.  The quick resolution ameliorates the annoyance.  If I lived in NC near Lionel, I would likely use the same approach.  For those of you who are not conveniently located to your favorite manufacturer, find a good local service station to deal with or come to York, buy the stuff there, and test it there as well.  The internet and forums are great, but with the train hobby the use of shipping to deal with complex, somewhat fragile, and expensive toys is not an optimal solution and leads to a lot of the complaining we've seen here.  At least that is my belief. 

Good luck to the original poster getting your issues resolved.  Don't allow that stuff to snuff out the fun that this hobby generates.  And use the many resources here to help you get the stuff in good order again.  Best regards. 

I put in a pre-order for the new VL Challenger. If that one comes in with some QC issues it will be my last new locomotive purchase from Lionel, MTH, etc.

Everything seems so "buggy" lately.

Maybe it's just my eyes playing tricks on me but 50% of the new locomotives I purchase wobble (even after messing around with traction tires). I run older MTH and Lionel and all runs as smooth as glass. 

rtraincollector posted:

Not saying you shouldn't do post like this, as they are helpful to most I guess, but the ones who will not/don't do preorders or buy the newer more advance items see this as proof why not to. What we really need to help that situation is when there is good and no problems report that also. I'm on the won't bench myself but I hope out of the thousands of engines shipped that there can't be more than 5% - 7% of them that actually have problems. 

Us new guys really need posts like this so that we know what we are getting into/risks involved when we buy a like new in box o-scale engine.  I totally agree with Mike g's response as it represents/speaks to my first experience with o-scale lionel engines (I posted the zinc pest hatch door issue on my Allegheny).  I also think there is bit of a hush conspiracy on here to not bash lionels good name lest the hobby die...(I say that with tongue in cheek but it is there). I love to look at my engine and hope in future small business's pop up to recreate all the small parts breaking and crumbling from the various models.  If so maybe ill actually run my loco..  Its good to know the reality of a situation as long as it serves the purpose of sharing knowledge and identifying a problem which I think it does.   

from Mr.  Zinc Pest...

The complexity of Lionel's newest Locomotive offerings is astounding but puts these machines in a different class entirely.  Their hand built nature almost dictates that extremely highly trained and able workers are needed to assemble each and every one, taking care not to pinch any wires also watching for defective parts and then testing each and every one CAREFULLY.   Same goes for the repair personnel.  Once a company puts itself in a hole with initial quality, the second part, the warranty & repair facility become infinitely more crucial.  So, how will they find, for one thing, and be able to pay such people on this side of the Pacific?  I see a huge dilemma, from some of the accounts described here.  If a dozen folks reporting on this forum are having issue after issue with bought & paid for product, just imagine the true numbers.  Yow. 

Unfortunately we seem to have done this to ourselves, buying the latest,  greatest models, and in doing so telling the builders what we wanted.  

There were 2 Model stores close to my home town. Whenever we purchased an item the owners would open the cartons up and check each item we purchased, and if it was an engine, he would put it on a test track and check it out before selling it. If they found a problem, it would go back to the manufacturer. That's no longer done and doubt if engines are even tested or checked as they once were by Lionel before they were boxed up.

josef posted:

 That's no longer done and doubt if engines are even tested or checked as they once were by Lionel before they were boxed up.

My LHS and forum sponsor The Imperial Train Company will test any engine upon request.  Anything on the shelf has already been tested before being put up for display.  There are shops that will still do this.  I imagine many still do if asked.

I hope they can fix the problems they have. The hard part is to get techs that have an idea how everything works in rach product. I have had my Lionmaster Class A go back several times and it arrived with a new problem after the old one got fixed. Body screws were missing, wires were smashed and shorted out. One of my other club members got it fixed and hasn’t had no problems for 3 months after the repair.

I would consider purchasing Lionel locomotives with all the fancy gizmos if Lionel were continuing the tech education classes.  Then, at least, I would be able to fix my own locos and not risk shipping damage, especially on the really large, heavy locos.

MartyE posted:

josef posted:

 That's no longer done and doubt if engines are even tested or checked as they once were by Lionel before they were boxed up.

My LHS and forum sponsor The Imperial Train Company will test any engine upon request.  Anything on the shelf has already been tested before being put up for display.  There are shops that will still do this.  I imagine many still do if asked.

That's good to hear, and thanks for post. Hope there are more. I would be more willing to pay retail price then a discounted price knowing the item left the store tested. Again, Thanks.

Pre order pricing is not worth the hassle of saving some $$$ upfront if there's nothing but issues once the item arrives. The stuff is always available after its arrived at dealers. 

I havent preordered ANYTHING in 2 years because qc has done nothing but go down hill. I was going to buy the Legacy F7s after they showed up, but even those were hit and miss. I passed....and will continue to speak with my wallet....or lack there of!

You guys are dreaming if you think it's going to get better.

I totally agree. I don't purchase engines too often, but 2 of 3 LC Plus engines I purchased in the last two years were defective. One was missing a jewel in the tender. The other has had major issues with grinding gearing, wobbling, and a defective smoke unit.

Since I don't live near a repair center, I PAID to ship my brand new engine back to Lionel. Of course, it returned with only one of three problems fixed. I refuse to pay to ship it back to them yet again. I will just deal with the grinding gear and wobbling issue. At least it looks good on the shelf!

The next issue came with the Pet Shop starter set I bought for my daughter for Christmas. She was so excited! We plopped it on the track around the Christmas tree, turned on the power, and.... nothing. The engine was DOA. 

My latest issue came with my son's Christmas set... the Lionel NYC Subway. One of the sets of doors are misaligned. You can't close them on one car on one side of the train.

It really sucks since I have been purchasing Lionel for a very long time. I may not be a huge buyer, but I do spend about 500-1000 dollars on trains a year. When you have quality control issues on 4 of 5 purchases in a row, you are really ****ing off the consumer! Especially when you have to PAY to ship their defective item back to them to fix THEIR manufacturing issue!

I hate to say it, but new Lionel is off my shopping list. I will stick to Williams, MTH, and non-Chinese Lionel. I bought a couple of Williams passenger car sets down at York last week and I am so happy with their quality! I do realize that Williams is also made in China, but at least their factory applies Zhìliàng Kòngzhì!!!! 

Usually people only mention something if there is an issue. Just because one person has a problem with a product doesn't mean that everyone/the majority of people will. You'll get 10 negative reviews before you get one positive review. People are more apt to mention a product that is a problem (and tell everyone about it) than one that works as advertised. 

I'd like to see the numbers on actual defects but there is no way to. Think about it this way: if as many of Lionel's and MTH's products were defective as people think they are the companies would go out of business for warranty claims. I'm betting that most products they sell work fine out of the box, but you never hear about that 😉.

I can tell you I have only purchased one Lionel Vision Line engine (the Centipede). Right out of the wrapper their were a number of things that did not work. I would fix one problem and it would be good for a couple laps around the layout then go out again. I told myself I am not sending it back to Lionel for the simple reason once I got it back their would be new problems. I never complained to Lionel or posted it on the o-gauge forum. Needless to say I have not purchased another Lionel Vision Line engine since. I think lots of people are having problems and just not saying anything. Lionel Vision Line engines are beautiful to look at but I think you need to accept the fact that not everything is going to work all the time. If you can accept that..........It won't drive you nuts.

josef posted:

There were 2 Model stores close to my home town. Whenever we purchased an item the owners would open the cartons up and check each item we purchased, and if it was an engine, he would put it on a test track and check it out before selling it. If they found a problem, it would go back to the manufacturer. That's no longer done and doubt if engines are even tested or checked as they once were by Lionel before they were boxed up.

What Joseph says is ideal for the customer. Does anyone know a retailer willing to do this today?

MartyE posted:

josef posted:

 That's no longer done and doubt if engines are even tested or checked as they once were by Lionel before they were boxed up.

My LHS and forum sponsor The Imperial Train Company will test any engine upon request.  Anything on the shelf has already been tested before being put up for display.  There are shops that will still do this.  I imagine many still do if asked.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

josef posted:

There were 2 Model stores close to my home town. Whenever we purchased an item the owners would open the cartons up and check each item we purchased, and if it was an engine, he would put it on a test track and check it out before selling it. If they found a problem, it would go back to the manufacturer. That's no longer done and doubt if engines are even tested or checked as they once were by Lionel before they were boxed up.

What Joseph says is ideal for the customer. Does anyone know a retailer willing to do this today?

See my post directly below his.  I'm sure there are others.  Sometimes you just need to ask.

Sorry about the problems, but I have bought dozens of Lionel locomotives, a couple of dozen accessories and many dozens of freight and passenger cars over the last 25 years, and have had zero problems.  In the last five years, perhaps 7 locos, mostly LC+ and a couple of Legacy, with no problems.  All have come from a local dealer or Charles Ro.  These claims of widespread, systemic quality problems simply do not fit the evidence seen by myself and most of the people I know. 

They are the results of the occasional lemon, mishandling during shipping and an unpleasant but inevitable failure rate of a small percentage of complex electromechanical products,  much more susceptible to shipping and handling damage than your average home appliance.  And lots of small details that can be easily damaged.  If folks on this forum want to rant about the end of civilization as we know it based upon an n of 1 or 5, so be it, but it's largely impossible to project this as a universal problem from these sort of data.  Nothing I buy from Amazon is as fragile and complex as a 3 rail locomotive.  Maybe Ro knows how to pack these things better than most dealers?

Landsteiner posted:

They are the results of the occasional lemon, mishandling during shipping and an unpleasant but inevitable failure rate of a small percentage of complex electromechanical products,  much more susceptible to shipping and handling damage than your average home appliance.  And lots of small details that can be easily damaged.  

While my results are similar, I won't let that cloud the fact that the last few years has been difficult to defend some of the reported issues Lionel is having.  There has been an increasing trend in more reported issues that I believe some could be shipping related.  I can also state that IMO, the last 2 years I have seen a decrease in the quality of packaging of the Lionel product line.

I purchased the Santa Fe F3 that just came in and along with the absolute minimal wrapping around the engines themselves, pieces of foam were randomly pushed into open gaps that really did nothing to secure the locomotive.  The item box as well as the shipper has increasingly gotten thinner.  This engine went back for some loose screws and a Bluetooth issue.  It was promptly fixed by CS, which I still think are some of the best.  This is the first RMA I've needed in a long time.

The Polar Express Berk also had minimal wrapping and a bottom foam cradle that was oversized for the locomotive.  With a black foam piece that supposed to protect the boiler front that really doesn't stay in place.  The top seems to hold the locomotive in place.  This locomotive arrived fine but I can see where packaging has really taken a hit and I have to wonder if this could be the root of some of these issues.

Locomotives purchased in the past had much better wrapping around the engine and foam packaging more suited to the engine without the need of "shims".

Hopefully Lionel will take a look at the packaging as well to see if improvement could be made there to help solve some of these issues.

As far as Ro packaging better, there is at least one less "shipping path" from Ro than some other vendors.  Ro being a direct customer of Lionel.  Many shops have to buy via a distributor so now many of these engines have at least 1 or more stops before it gets to the customer.  That's 1 or more chances of shipping damage.

If you think these new engines are just a few lemons here and there your in denial. I've been involved with a train store for 25 years and been owned by my family. Actually lionel service station #20. Trust me it's not just lemons. It's not any one brand either. Like I've said a million times, the problem is when something breaks the parts are either out of production or gone. I was once do in love with all this new stuff too, it's amazing but not do amazing sitting on shelf with no parts available.  Most options are only to upgrade to dcs or retro fit another tmcc system. Customers don't wanna shell out that money when they spent 1500$ year before on the engine. These companies are not interested in repairing just selling and that's fine, I just wish somehow a aftermarket company could remake parts just as they do for prewar and postwar. Sorry for rant but I've had a lot of dealings with all this.  FRUSTRATION 

From engines I have, I always felt that Weaver's soft foam was the best in protecting engines compared to the hard stiff foam used by Lionel and MTH. My wife actually dropped one of my Weaver engines after coming back from a weathering on the outside concrete and brick steps as she lost her balance, at least a 4 foot drop and down the steps. When I got home and she told me what happened, I expected a box full of broken parts and damaged engine. But was unexpected to find a pristine engine with no damage or broken off parts.

As to other engines, my Vision BB had parts rattling around and my coal depleting never worked and a light out in Tender. I fixed the light, re-attached parts but never sent in to fix the depleting coal feature. More worried about shipping to and from then I was about the depleting coal feature.

I could write about other failures or problem in new engines and not due to shipping handling, but can honestly say I never had a problem with a Weaver product.

I am protected from most of these problems by the unavailability of roadnames/prototypes interesting to me (there is little to buy) .  As a car nut as well as a train nut, l parallel the two.   The public went overseas for cars, as Detroit ignored quality, durability, and fuel efficiency, its management bailed with golden parachutes...and two out of three went bankrupt.  As l see it, with trains some of the opposite is true.  Trains made overseas are those with QC problems, which won't improve with tiraffe war, a consumer magazine states that many new car problems are electronic (so l am not incentivized to seek much of that in either product, added on to the fact l do not want to pay for it, and never have wanted to), the adage "computers are great when they work" seems to apply.  I have run into a dearth of parts problem with two recent vehicles.

Looks like something out of "Total Recall" in Banjoflyers response. "Quotto" (horrendous looking) coming out of the mutants mid section! Which one is "Quotto"?  

Love Ya Mike!

       Steam Forever

              John

I don't know that we can single out Lionel as having problems.  I recently bought three Atlas, Trainman Dash8-40CW.  All three had to be shipped back to Atlas.  First one developed a short after a week.  Second one arrived without a pickup roller on one truck (there is only 1 per truck),  third one that came in has one truck not connected to the motor (if there is even one there).  The wheels on that truck rotate freely by hand.  So, either I am the most unlucky train lover there is or Lionel isn't the only manufacturer that has problems with quality control of their suppliers.  BTW, the 3rd engine was a store replacement for another one that was smashed up during shipping.  Their shipping department didn't bolt the engine to the excellent protective cradle that Atlas uses.  The engine was just placed loose in the cradle without any protection.  Lots of parts rattling around in the box!  So, attention to detail is not just a Chinese manufacturing problem.  

When I was a kid growing up in the late 60s and 70s any time we heard something was made in China we knew it was junk......and for the most part it was. Any toy made in China lasted a week or two. Our mindset was "China Junk".  So here we are trying to figure out what has gone wrong with our trains.......Here's what I think in no particular order........CHINA, SHIPPING, AND TO MANY ELECTRONICS. Amen!

JFC454 posted:

I don't know that we can single out Lionel as having problems.  

I agree 100%.  I do think some of their issues though could be overcome with a change in packaging.  As I said I have had better experience than those posting but looking at some of these complaints they seem to me are shipping issues.

Landsteiner posted:

Sorry about the problems, but I have bought dozens of Lionel locomotives, a couple of dozen accessories and many dozens of freight and passenger cars over the last 25 years, and have had zero problems.  In the last five years, perhaps 7 locos, mostly LC+ and a couple of Legacy, with no problems.  All have come from a local dealer or Charles Ro.  These claims of widespread, systemic quality problems simply do not fit the evidence seen by myself and most of the people I know. 

 

"If" true, quick buy PowerBall tickets!

colorado hirailer posted:

I am protected from most of these problems by the unavailability of roadnames/prototypes interesting to me (there is little to buy) .  As a car nut as well as a train nut, l parallel the two.   The public went overseas for cars, as Detroit ignored quality, durability, and fuel efficiency, its management bailed with golden parachutes...and two out of three went bankrupt.  As l see it, with trains some of the opposite is true.  Trains made overseas are those with QC problems, which won't improve with tiraffe war, a consumer magazine states that many new car problems are electronic (so l am not incentivized to seek much of that in either product, added on to the fact l do not want to pay for it, and never have wanted to), the adage "computers are great when they work" seems to apply.  I have run into a dearth of parts problem with two recent vehicles.

 

Not to get off topic but I'm into cars too and one thing I have to say is that, I deal with trucks everyday as I'm a pipe fitter. I see thousands of different contractors on jobs. The trucks that outlast all of them are the Toyota tundra and I can remember a day when people in u.s wouldn't touch one with a 10ft pole. But the tundra is made in Texas so go figure. Parts are from elsewhere but it is technically made in USA. The fords, dodge's, and chevys don't last half as long in this trade

rtraincollector posted:

Not saying you shouldn't do post like this, as they are helpful to most I guess, but the ones who will not/don't do preorders or buy the newer more advance items see this as proof why not to. What we really need to help that situation is when there is good and no problems report that also. I'm on the won't bench myself but I hope out of the thousands of engines shipped that there can't be more than 5% - 7% of them that actually have problems. 

This post is great, it's not that we hate any one company but they need to see what's going on because if they know now they can turn it around.  These engines are hit or miss so why would you wanna pre order one?  Lol lol I mean would it be ok to not talk about Ford after their last 1.5 million car recall? Some of these trains should be recalled. If I get 25 big boys in at the store and 10 -15 have some kind of issue,  you think that's ok? I can remember about 10 Christmas ago when every single 80 watt transformer that we sold came back, we were told to cut cord send it back . We sent tons of them back, I mean tons. Absolutely terribly wrong